Does Op-amp Rolling Work?

[tmtomh]

There's nothing "state of the art" about the Douk A5.

Exactly what do you think plugging an alternative opamp into a cheap class D amplifier with ordinary performance and then running a few tests proves about either opamp specifically?

Nothing to see here.

It's the rant against Class D amps again - there's definitely "nothing to see here" about that - it's what you always bang on about and as usual you've offered nothing new or useful about it here.

As for the tests @amirm ran, the performance of this amp is certainly good enough to have revealed meaningful differences between the op amps if there were such differences - and you know it.

 

[amirm]

Exactly what do you think plugging an alternative opamp into a cheap class D amplifier with ordinary performance and then running a few tests proves about either opamp specifically?

I have done the testing in Purifi amps as well with similar results: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-opamp-review-sonic-imagery-vs-sparkos.10325/

 

[Lambda]

So you can’t measure the difference between a 50 cent oft the selves op-amp and an discrete esoteric replacement if you measure behind an low/mid range class d Amp.
Shocking! i would have thought the discrete esoteric replacement would perform noticeable worse.

What general conclusion can we draw from this test? None.

 

[Dimitri]

Exactly what do you think plugging an alternative opamp into a cheap class D amplifier with ordinary performance and then running a few tests proves about either opamp specifically?

Sounds like a question for the manufacturer, rather than the reviewer.

What general conclusion can we draw from this test? None.

How about the plexiglass is eye-candy, aimed at a specific "type of customer" and potentially a feature that may have sold amps just for this reason alone.

And stop yelling at the messanger

 

[TheWalkman]

I’ve rolled a few op-amps over the past half dozen years and could never really distinguish any difference in the before/after sound. The certainly shows why.

Rolling your amps with some new chips is cheap, clean fun (but that’s all it really is.)

QED

 

[voodooless]

Nothing to see here.

Isn’t that the point?

 

[Lambda]

How about the plexiglass is eye-candy, aimed at a specific "type of customer"

Sure is.
but how is this proven?

Was the ne5532 replaced by a "better" opamp?
better in what way?

• Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (THD+N)
• Slew Rate (SR)
• Open-Loop Gain (A_OL)
• Gain Bandwidth Product (GBWP)
• Common-Mode Rejection Ratio (CMRR)
• Power Supply Rejection Ratio (PSRR)
• Input Offset Voltage & Drift
• Noise (Voltage and Current Noise Density)
• Output Impedance
• Linearity
• Input Bias and Offset Currents
• ...

What is even better what is relevant.

Isn’t that the point?

If you want to show that better opamps don’t make a difference.
But how is this Opamp better? What makes it better?

 

[JSmith]

Without knowing anything about the circuit design or taking any measurements whatsoever... why do people think they can do better than the device engineers by randomly swapping opamps? That is more the question...


JSmith

 

[Dzhaughn]

Should have used more expensive replacement op-amps, obviously.

Won't hear the difference with those sub $1000 cables.

 

[Dzhaughn]

I’ve rolled a few op-amps over the past half dozen years and could never really distinguish any difference in the before/after sound. The certainly shows why.

Rolling your amps with some new chips is cheap, clean fun (but that’s all it really is.)

QED

Not so sure about the "cheap" part.

 

[amirm]

Was the ne5532 replaced by a "better" opamp?
better in what way?

It was a lot more expensive. Ergo, "it must be better." At least half the comment in my review of Douk A5 on you tube specifically asked for these expensive discrete Op-amps and hence this test.

As I showed in the review, past DAC tests with larger set of op-amps showed the same. As did Purifi amplifier tests.

 

[tmtomh]

Sure is.
but how is this proven?

Was the ne5532 replaced by a "better" opamp?
better in what way?

• Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (THD+N)
• Slew Rate (SR)
• Open-Loop Gain (A_OL)
• Gain Bandwidth Product (GBWP)
• Common-Mode Rejection Ratio (CMRR)
• Power Supply Rejection Ratio (PSRR)
• Input Offset Voltage & Drift
• Noise (Voltage and Current Noise Density)
• Output Impedance
• Linearity
• Input Bias and Offset Currents
• ...

What is even better what is relevant.


If you want to show that better opamps don’t make a difference.
But how is this Opamp better? What makes it better?

Sure, but isn't the point that there is really no such thing as a better op amp?

In other words, between this test, Amir's Purifi-based amp tests, and his op amp rolling tests with Topping D10 DAC, there's been a pretty good variety of modern op amps tested in a variety of different components, and their impact on measurable performance ranges from "zero" to "negligible, and zero in practice."

So "better op amps don't make a difference" and "an op amp that doesn't measure better isn't really a better op amp" - these are basically equivalent statements.

 

[GXAlan]

As I showed in the review, past DAC tests with larger set of op-amps showed the same. As did Purifi amplifier tests.

What about phono stages? I did this test with a tube phono and there was a big improvement in noise when I op amp rolled.

Measured effect of op-amp rolling on a phono equalizer input-shorted noise

Op-amp rolling the stereo x LUXMAN LXV-OT10 Background Last month, I put together a Luxman "kit" phono equalizer and posted the measurements. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/luxman-lxv-ot10-phono-equalizer-amplifier-review-and-measurements.48055/ TLDR? The Luxman...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[TheWalkman]

Not so sure about the "cheap" part.

I’ve replaced stock op-amps with three or four different variations and I don’t recall ever having spent more than the price of a beer for any of the, “ultimate” chips. (I never could rationalize/ justify dropping nearly as much money for the discrete op-amps like the Sparkos, as I paid for the Class D amp I was experimenting on, like an Aiyima or Fosi.)

That said, I stand by my description of rolling op-amps as good, cheap fun. No more, no less.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

The bottom line: look for trouble elsewhere, because you're highly unlikely to find any here. Room acoustics and speakers come to mind.

 

[Multicore]

It's a nice public service announcement.

Remember when Amir tested an expensive cable and found it worked the same as a less expensive one? Same kinda thing.

 

[Lambda]

So "better op amps don't make a difference" and "an op amp that doesn't measure better isn't really a better op amp" - these are basically equivalent statements.

No.
There are huge differences between op-amps, but which parameters are relevant depends on the application— and if or how much this would translate to better output performance.
But there totally can be a "better" op-amp.

This is like saying there are no better DACs because your wife doesn’t hear the difference from the kitchen while you're comparing an "expensive" DAC to an off-the-shelf, mass-engineered DAC.

It was a lot more expensive. Ergo, "it must be better." At least half the comment in my review of Douk A5

Well, that would be a stupid conclusion, and I doubt your main audience is that stupid.

 

[effj]

There's nothing "state of the art" about the Douk A5.

Exactly what do you think plugging an alternative opamp into a cheap class D amplifier with ordinary performance and then running a few tests proves about either opamp specifically?

Nothing to see here.

Nothing for you to see here. Someone specifically asked Amir to compare op-amps in the Douk A5, and he did exactly that. The purpose was to show if switching op-amps affects the A5’s performance. It doesn’t matter if the A5 is state of the art. This thread informs A5 owners and potential A5 owners on whether there’s any value in modifying it.

 

[amirm]

Well, that would be a stupid conclusion, and I doubt your main audience is that stupid.

They are not stupid at all. It is just that they don't don't know the underpinning of the technology so go by marketing of companies and lay intuition (that if it is more expensive, it must be better).

 

[levimax]

Hi @amirm, in order to help people experience these results rather than just read about them could you make a level matched recording of a music sample using each op amp and share them? With all the competing claims floating around it is hard for people to accept these results just based on reading and looking at graphs.