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Does Op-amp Rolling Work?

Rate this article on opamp rolling:

  • 1. Terrible. Didn't learn anything

    Votes: 12 4.1%
  • 2. Kind of useful but I am still not convinced

    Votes: 21 7.2%
  • 3. I learned some and agree with conclusions

    Votes: 54 18.6%
  • 4. Wonderful to have data and proof that such "upgrades" don't work

    Votes: 203 70.0%

  • Total voters
    290
There is a whole topic about it:

 
The value for me in this Youtube is that is is a model for methodological, step by step fault finding.
So often you see people staring at a board until they recognize a part and then proceed to replace it.
Like searching for your keys near the lamp post because that is where the light it.

Mark does a great job diagnosing and then fixing it.
 
And not to forget: he was sent this specimen from the 'manufacturer' who claimed he never would find the fault ... but he did, and multiple ...
Hybris sometimes helps, in the end: not.
 
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I stumbled upon an amplifier repair video on YouTube today that completely by chance has helped me to understand the role of opamps and what is meant when people here talk about the selection of the opamp being integral to the overall design of the amp as a whole, and so there's little point in rolling them.
A bit late to the party.

Mark's videos are all worth watching.
 
That video is legendary, because the manufacturer tried to copyright strike Mark for making a service manual with schematics and all (perfectly legal), and faced huge backlash. Everyone and their mom condemned these bully tactics that were clearly out of spite, including people like Louis Rossmann (the right to repair guy). The video was down for a while but got reuploaded dozens of times in support of Mark.

Mark is a legend. Well, he should be. He is in my world. He's the neighbour many people on this forum would love to have;) His honest love for sharing knowledge is what the world needs more of.
 
Mark is a legend. Well, he should be. He is in my world. He's the neighbour many people on this forum would love to have;) His honest love for sharing knowledge is what the world needs more of.
Certainly one of the, if not THE most joyful and friendly YouTube repair guys out there. Indeed the type you'd love to have as a friend, not just because of the things he could do for you. Would love to have a beer or three with him.
 
NE5532 is unbeatable

Interesting thing is that all so called audio opamps were beaten by ne5532.
Second funny thing I found was that LM6172 which is actually a video opamp and not designed for audio performs better than many expensive audio opamps.
 
After receiving OPA827 ICs I tried these in my vintage Crown IC-150 preamp in exchange from the LF357N. Basic measurements did not show any significant improvement with 1 kHz sine and multitone signal. Of course this preamp is not state of the art but still useful.
Here the two measurments with 1 kHz:

LF357N
Crown_IC-150_1_kHz_0_dBV_LF357N.jpg


OPA827
Crown_IC-150_1_kHz_0_dBV_OPA827.jpg


Multitone:

LF357N
Crown_IC-150_Multitone_-20_dBV_LF357N.jpg


OPA827
Crown_IC-150_Multitone_-20_dBV_OPA827.jpg
 
I just rolled the op-amps in my Aiyima A07 to LME49720NA and immediately noticed a subjective improvement. The sound feels less dry and more musical, I am using a 80 Hz high pass filter on my speakers, though.
 
I just rolled the op-amps in my Aiyima A07 to LME49720NA and immediately noticed a subjective improvement. The sound feels less dry and more musical, I am using a 80 Hz high pass filter on my speakers, though.

You've used many of the key words that'll attract the anti-subjective police ;)

Wishing you good fun with op-amp rolling ... all part of the hobby!

/
 
You've used many of the key words that'll attract the anti-subjective police ;)

Wishing you good fun with op-amp rolling ... all part of the hobby!

/
I'm not really "into" op-amp rolling. I'd much rather have a device that sounded great from the get go. But I was tempted to try this after reading what google AI said about these two op-amps:

The LME49720NA offers superior audio fidelity with extremely low noise and distortion, making it ideal for high-end audio, while the NE5532 is a versatile, cost-effective op-amp for general audio applications, suitable for a wide range of tasks but with lower performance parameters than the LME49720NA. The LME49720NA is a more advanced, higher-cost component designed for premium audio, whereas the NE5532 provides a balanced performance and cost for more general use.

Choose the LME49720NA for:
  • Highest Audio Quality:
    If your application demands the absolute best sound with minimal noise and distortion, such as in premium preamplifiers, DACs, or headphone amplifiers.

  • Professional and Critical Audio:
    Where maintaining the highest signal fidelity is crucial, the LME49720NA is the preferred choice.

  • Driving Complex Loads:
    It can easily handle and drive loads as high as 600Ω and complex capacitive loads.
Choose the NE5532 for:

  • Versatility:
    For general audio circuits, mixers, filters, tone controllers, and other non-specialized audio applications.
  • Cost-Effectiveness:
    If you need acceptable audio performance without the higher cost of premium components, the NE5532 provides a good balance.
  • Balancing Performance and Budget:
    It offers a solid, cost-effective solution for everyday audio projects where top-tier performance isn't strictly required.
Key Differences at a Glance
  • Performance: The LME49720NA significantly outperforms the NE5532 in noise, bandwidth, and total harmonic distortion (THD).

  • Cost: The LME49720NA is significantly more expensive than the NE5532.

  • Application: The LME49720NA is for high-fidelity, premium applications, while the NE5532 is for a broader range of audio and general-purpose tasks.
I tried this op-amp in the Fosi P4 and the results were not good (extremely thin sound), but since people were recommending the LM4562NA for the Aiyima A70 mono, I thought I'd try the LME49720NA since I had them and they are supposed to the same.
 
If there is a real difference, measurements will confirm. Feel free to share.
My ears are the only tools I have around here to measure this, I believe. What kind of gear do I need for this?

The sound felt a lot more natural after changing the op-amps is all I can say. It became more fluid and nuanced, and less dry and flat.

I kinda wish I hadn't moved the LED's though when assembling the cases since now the lights are uneven. So I place the amps sideways to avoid seeing this!
 
Just goofing around, I proposed to Google AI:

AI responses on audio products can be very subjective since it is trained by scanning of social networks, which is full of subjective opinions.
https://www.google.com/search?num=1...hUKEwiC2Mj2gvOPAxW5PDQIHZUfNXgQvgUoAXoECBEQAg


AI Overview



It is correct that AI responses on audio products can be very subjective, which is a direct result of how AI models are trained
. Because these models learn from vast amounts of internet data, including social networks, their outputs reflect the biases, opinions, and inaccuracies present in that data.
Here is an explanation of why this happens and how to address it.
Why AI responses on audio products can be subjective
  • Training on biased data: AI systems are trained on massive datasets scraped from the internet, which inevitably contain human biases and subjective opinions. For example, if a popular audio product is widely praised on forums and social media, an AI will learn to associate that product with positive sentiment, even if the praise comes from only a specific demographic.
  • Pattern matching, not understanding: A large language model (LLM) is an "imitation engine" that identifies and reproduces statistical patterns from its training data. It does not possess true understanding or common sense. It generates plausible-sounding text based on what it has seen, not necessarily what is true. This means that when it generates a review for a pair of headphones, it will repeat phrases and sentiments commonly associated with that type of product without having actually listened to them.
  • The "average Jane" problem: When dealing with subjective topics like sound quality, there is no single "ground truth" to train against. Training is often done by human labelers, but their opinions can differ based on personal perspective, background, and beliefs. If the training data is not representative of all relevant consumer segments, the AI will fail to make predictions that generalize to different contexts.
  • Amplifying popular opinion: Models can lean heavily on the most common or linked sources they were trained on, leading to a focus on "big brands" or products that generate the most internet discussion. This can cause smaller, niche products to be overlooked, even if they are higher quality.
How to get more objective AI responses for audio products
To get the most value out of an AI response on an audio product, consider using these strategies.
Request objective, data-driven information
Instead of asking for a review, which invites a subjective response, focus on objective questions that the AI is better equipped to answer based on its training data. For example:
  • Ask for a summary of professional reviews from specific, trusted audio publications. This guides the AI to use more credible sources.
  • Inquire about the technical specifications of a product, such as the battery life, drivers, and codec support.
  • Prompt the AI for a neutral comparison of features between several models. For example, ask for a table comparing the noise-canceling capabilities, connection types, and price points of three different headphones.
Analyze with critical thinking
An AI can be a powerful assistant for gathering and summarizing information, but you must take on the role of fact-checker and critical thinker.
  • Cross-check with trusted sources: Just as you would with any review, use credible sources to verify the information. For example, check a trusted audio reviewer's YouTube channel or website to see how their impressions compare to the AI's summary.
  • Look for citations: If the AI provides citations, follow them to determine if they back up the claims made in the summary. If they don't, the AI may be misinterpreting information or hallucinating.
  • Understand the limitations: Always remember that an AI is not a human. It cannot experience sound, so its "knowledge" of audio quality is based on the opinions it has processed from its training data.
Refine your prompts for nuance
By providing more context, you can direct the AI to provide a more nuanced and less biased response.
  • Specify the target audience and use case. For example: "For a music producer who prioritizes a flat, accurate frequency response, what do critics generally say about the Sennheiser HD 600?"
  • Direct the AI to a specific perspective. For example: "Based on reviews, what are the most common positive and negative feedback points regarding the build quality and comfort of the Sony WH-1000XM5 headphones?"
 
The LME49720NA offers superior audio fidelity with extremely low noise and distortion, making it ideal for high-end audio, while the NE5532 is a versatile, cost-effective op-amp for general audio applications, suitable for a wide range of tasks but with lower performance parameters than the LME49720NA. The LME49720NA is a more advanced, higher-cost component designed for premium audio, whereas the NE5532 provides a balanced performance and cost for more general use.
You are only repeating something you have found somewhere. Contrary to you, I have measured AIYIMA A07 with NE5532, LME49720 and OPA2134. You can find it here with the search engine. There are almost no measurable differences in A07 plots when these opamps are swapped. Everything is masked by the TPA3255. No audible differences. You are only describing your subjective impressions without a single proof.
 
You are only repeating something you have found somewhere. Contrary to you, I have measured AIYIMA A07 with NE5532, LME49720 and OPA2134. You can find it here with the search engine. There are almost no measurable differences in A07 plots when these opamps are swapped. Everything is masked by the TPA3255. No audible differences. You are only describing your subjective impressions without a single proof.
Thank you, Pavel. For some reason, this needs to be pointed out ad infinitum et ad nauseam. :facepalm:
 
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