Op-amp Rolling Using Sparkos on Fosi V3 Mono

[NeLey169]

Have you not seen all the threads, all the tests (INCLUDING THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TO**) , and all the information on this site telling you that swapping op amps is a mugs game.

The circuit will be designed specifically for the op amp chosen by the designer. Without that specific tailored design, you are quite likely not going to get the benefits of the op amp specifications. You are certainly not going to get it by swapping at random without understanding the design choices of the engineer. Swapping op amps never (as far as I have ever seen) audibly improved the sound at the output of an audio device. At best it will make no difference. At worst it will make things oscillate.

**Sorry for letting my frustration show, but this is exasperating. There are 15 pages in this thread alone.

I had to check it myself, and after replacing it I found it was not worth replacing the opamp in the amplifier.

 

[JSmith]

I also let my wife decide wich side she prefers

Let me guess... the difference could be heard from another room, like the kitchen?


JSmith

 

[im_gumby]

Yet again more in the series on op-amp rolling.

Here's an analogy...
I have two different candy bars. Amir measures and determines the caloric count per candy bar.
Based on his measurements. I cut off 100 calorie chunks from each bar.

I ask you to taste them and describe what you taste.
Amir's logic... because we measured the caloric count and both were 100 calories.. they should taste the same.

Let that sink in for a second.

Here's a slightly different take.
Suppose you have a concert violinist. She has her very expensive violin and she plays a set.
Now she's handed a Strat valued at 1.5 Million. She plays the same set.

The sound engineer has recorded both sets and the graphs appear to be identical.

8 out 10 people listening to both sets live couldn't hear a difference. The remaining two could hear a difference. (They preferred the newer violin to the Strat)

Now the point here is that while the graphs look the same and that any measurable difference were in the noise... and while most people couldn't hear the difference two people could. Does that mean that the two people were imagining it? Or that the difference was subtle?


The point here is that while Amir's tests don't show a difference that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Or that while his measurements are accurate, his tests are correct.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

The point here is that while Amir's tests don't show a difference that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Or that while his measurements are accurate, his tests are correct.

And yet, to this date, no one has ever shown a difference using proper controls for listening comparison. Wonder why.

If all measurable specs are the same between OP Amps, what would cause the sound being output to be audibly different?

As in, what in the actual audio signal is responsible for a "believed" sound difference that measurement equipment is not seeing a difference between when comparing two OP Amps?

 

[F1Fan72]

I have to admit, when I had a set of V3’s, I tried and couldn’t hear a blind difference.. complete waste of time and money.

 

[xray]

You can't argue a hypothesis by making up a fictitious scenario based on that hypothesis. That has no meaning.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

You can't argue a hypothesis by making up a fictitious scenario based on that hypothesis. That has no meaning.

Not to mention it is a flawed scenario. Amir isn't just measuring one parameter (in this scenario, he wouldn't just be measuring calorie count to determine taste differences)

 

[im_gumby]

And yet, to this date, no one has ever shown a difference using proper controls for listening comparison. Wonder why.

If all measurable specs are the same between OP Amps, what would cause the sound being output to be audibly different?

As in, what in the actual audio signal is responsible for a "believed" sound difference?

And again you missed the point.
The first time I attempted to discuss this I got banned...

Both pieces of candy measure the same number of calories and by your logic they should taste the same.
And in Amir's test... he ran both op-amps at the same time in different channels.

Had Amir paid any attention to what those who believe in op-amp rolling were describing... his measurement test didn't test for that.
If you read or listen to what they describe... its a change in depth, sound stage, detail, etc ... All things negated by Amir's test.

I have to admit, when I had a set of V3’s, I tried and couldn’t hear a blind difference.. complete waste of time and money.

Ok, I have never tried to roll op-amps. Which is why I'm asking these questions.
There are a lot of factors at play here.
The quality of the amp, the differences between the two op-amps... The quality of your speakers/IEMs/Headphones...

Which is why I included the second example.
(Which was based on an actual test by a professional violinist. )
Not everyone may hear a difference, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Again...
I watched Amir's videos and read his posts here.
I am calling to question his methodology and if he's actually testing for the right things... or if his interpretation is correct.

I'll give you a third in a bit...

 

[im_gumby]

Not to mention it is a flawed scenario. Amir isn't just measuring one parameter (in this scenario, he wouldn't just be measuring calorie count to determine taste differences)

And that's the point.
IIRC you're a post doc candidate or got your doctorate?

Are Amir's tests correct and complete?

 

[Buckeye Amps]

And that's the point.
IIRC you're a post doc candidate or got your doctorate?

Are Amir's tests correct and complete?

Yes. If/until someone can tell him a brand new or overlooked aspect that should be measured.

Those proposing OP Amps make an audible difference have the burden of proof of telling us how they do and what aspect of their function is doing so.

 

[JeremyFife]

Yet again more in the series on op-amp rolling.

Here's an analogy...
I have two different candy bars. Amir measures and determines the caloric count per candy bar.
Based on his measurements. I cut off 100 calorie chunks from each bar.

I ask you to taste them and describe what you taste.
Amir's logic... because we measured the caloric count and both were 100 calories.. they should taste the same.

Let that sink in for a second.

Here's a slightly different take.
Suppose you have a concert violinist. She has her very expensive violin and she plays a set.
Now she's handed a Strat valued at 1.5 Million. She plays the same set.

The sound engineer has recorded both sets and the graphs appear to be identical.

8 out 10 people listening to both sets live couldn't hear a difference. The remaining two could hear a difference. (They preferred the newer violin to the Strat)

Now the point here is that while the graphs look the same and that any measurable difference were in the noise... and while most people couldn't hear the difference two people could. Does that mean that the two people were imagining it? Or that the difference was subtle?


The point here is that while Amir's tests don't show a difference that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Or that while his measurements are accurate, his tests are correct.

The chocolate analogy is nonsense, literally makes no sense.

For the violin analogy, if those two listeners repeatedly heard a difference under controlled listening conditions then I'd be happy to accept that there was a difference.
Unfortunately, with Op Amps, no-one has yet demonstrated that they can hear a difference.
Your analogy is hypothetical and basically useless.

Amirm and others have demonstrated that opamps don't make an audible difference (caveats about normal audio circuits etc). No listening tests challenge that.

Think about the point you are trying to make, or the question you want answered (and can't find the answer yourself)

 

[F1Fan72]

The chocolate analogy is nonsense, literally makes no sense.

For the violin analogy, if those two listeners repeatedly heard a difference under controlled listening conditions then I'd be happy to accept that there was a difference.
Unfortunately, with Op Amps, no-one has yet demonstrated that they can hear a difference.
Your analogy is hypothetical and basically useless.

Amirm and others have demonstrated that opamps don't make an audible difference (caveats about normal audio circuits etc). No listening tests challenge that.

Think about the point you are trying to make, or the question you want answered (and can't find the answer yourself)

Agreed .. verging on being snakeoil ..

If you believe you hear a difference, there will be a difference..

 

[im_gumby]

I'm afraid you don't understand the chocolate analogy.

There are two issues w Amir's tests.
1) Do they actually test for the information or is there something else?
2) Are Amir's interpretation of the results correct?

So far, none of you are actually asking or thinking about those questions.

Again, Amir's test was to place each op-amp in each channel. If you question those who talk about hearing the differences... Amir's test will fail to test for that.

In the earlier posts where I got banned I talked about the Onix Alpha dongle dac. Where switching from a USB-C cable rated for 480mb/s to a USB-C 4 cable that has a much higher rating, including able to handle more power... How it impacted the sound. You all said it was hog wash. I was imaging it. But the reality is that I wasn't.
The Onix Alpha is a power hungry DAC. If your phone doesn't supply enough power thru its USB-C connection, it won't work at all. (Yes different model phones provide different levels of power via the USB-C port and are still considered within spec.) At the same time... providing more power to the dongle DAC does improve sound.

The issue is that many here focused only on the digital data aspect and not the power. (Not to mention that the USB-C 4 cable actually has better components and better shielding...

There were two other things that I raised before getting banned.

1) The differences are subtle. While some of the audiophile reviewers have good ears and can hear the difference quickly... most people can't.
A lot of times, I have to listen to something multiple times before I can hear the differences and

2) it also depends on the quality of my headphones.
I'll hear them quicker w my IEMs or my new headphones while my older headphones ... couldn't hear it at first until I heard it w the IEM and went back to them.


Oh and one other thing... Amir very quickly dismisses the distortion.
The interesting thing about distortion and this is something most of the audiophiles are quick to point out... not all distortion is a bad thing.
That's why many prefer the sound of tubes.

Personally, I prefer a good class D amp ... but that's just me.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

Ok

 

[JustJones]

If you question those who talk about hearing the differences...

Were the differences heard in properly controlled DBT? If not then that's the end of it, if so let's see the tests.

 

[im_gumby]

Ok

So I had asked you this question... didn't get a response.

You design your own amp cards. (Assuming you're not just OEM'ing Purifi)
Why did you choose your op-amp over the cheaper OPA that's pretty much the standard?
After all, you clearly believe that there's no sonic difference, right?

And that's again a question that got me banned?

Please note: I don't have an answer here. I haven't rolled any op amps.
Again this is why I watched and read Amir's tests and results and why I am asking questions.

So while those here are asking me to show the value.. or shut up... I have nothing to show. Just asking questions you clearly can't answer.

Like for example how do you measure or predict sound stage or clarity?

 

[Buckeye Amps]

Not going to feed the troll anymore.

 

[solderdude]

Yet again more in the series on op-amp rolling.


Here's a slightly different take.
Suppose you have a concert violinist. She has her very expensive violin and she plays a set.
Now she's handed a Strat valued at 1.5 Million. She plays the same set.

The sound engineer has recorded both sets and the graphs appear to be identical.

Show the graphs and how identical could they be ?

8 out 10 people listening to both sets live couldn't hear a difference. The remaining two could hear a difference. (They preferred the newer violin to the Strat)

Please link to this article.

Now the point here is that while the graphs look the same and that any measurable difference were in the noise... and while most people couldn't hear the difference two people could. Does that mean that the two people were imagining it? Or that the difference was subtle?

We don't know.. the better question would be if the first recording was played back using op-amp A and also through op-amp B (which would give the exact same result) would the 2 people who hear a difference between different recordings using different violins still be able to hear a difference

Ok, I have never tried to roll op-amps.

Obvious... so why question the tests ?

Which is why I'm asking these questions.
There are a lot of factors at play here.
The quality of the amp, the differences between the two op-amps... The quality of your speakers/IEMs/Headphones...

Nah... there is only 1 difference at play here... the different op-amps all else is the same.

The point here is that while Amir's tests don't show a difference that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

How would there be a difference if the measured wave forms are the same ?

I am calling to question his methodology and if he's actually testing for the right things... or if his interpretation is correct.

So... you have no actual knowledge nor first hand experience yet you question methodology and whether or not the 'right things' are tested (which you cannot point out what they would be).

 

[xray]

There are two issues w Amir's tests.
1) Do they actually test for the information or is there something else?
2) Are Amir's interpretation of the results correct?

I'm afraid if you have to ask that then there's no hope.

 

[xray]

At this point I'm certain you are just trolling.