Thanks for confirming that is all just suggestion and placebo.Op amp rolling is an art, something which cannot be measured and is subjective. Sound is in the " head"; I mean ear of the beholder.
Thanks for confirming that is all just suggestion and placebo.Op amp rolling is an art, something which cannot be measured and is subjective. Sound is in the " head"; I mean ear of the beholder.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...p-amp-rolling-part-2-video.62412/post-2289504What do you mean by this? Especially, what is "honest stair stepping harmonic distortion"?
I hope you realize 'flat top clipping' as you refer to it has similar reduction in amplitude if higher order HD. In fact, often much more regular reduction in higher order HD than the example you linked:https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...p-amp-rolling-part-2-video.62412/post-2289504
2nd HD is higher than 3rd HD, 3rd HD is higher than 4th HD .....
This is the common distortion signature for single end triodes and jFets. Stair step distortion.
In music production—whether it's mixing or mastering—voicing is done by adjusting the distortion characteristics across different frequency bands. It's not a matter of right or wrong; it's simply a matter of taste. So it's unreasonable to deny that designers of consumer audio equipment also actively engage in voicing in a similar way. Rather than assuming that a designer without any measuring equipment just happened to create something with that kind of voicing by chance, it makes more sense to think that they intentionally added the distortion characteristics they felt were best, based on their own sensibilities. If we're talking about cheap, cost-focused gear, then that's a completely different story.Their claim of "voicing" is always related to component choices, or some circuit design for which, they have not verified a thing as far as voicing. This phrase has become a marketing claim to win over people who don't know anything about electronics.
When that is done it is not just distortion but above all tonality and certain effects and if that is distortion it is higher than that of audio equipment and it not over an entire mix but for each individual 'instrument' or 'voice'.In music production—whether it's mixing or mastering—voicing is done by adjusting the distortion characteristics across different frequency bands.
Again, zero examples where this was verified. Zero. The fashion audio designers I've met didn't have even close to the design chops needed to manipulate distortion by frequency band, so I'm triply skeptical.So it's unreasonable to deny that designers of consumer audio equipment also actively engage in voicing in a similar way.
You probably just don’t know this, but mastering is the process of voicing music that’s already been mixed down into stereo. And even during the mixing stage, a lot of processors are already inserted on the mix bus to shape the overall voicing. There’s a wide variety of gear used for that—from digital plugins that apply distortion with precision, to tube equipment with transformers—and how each piece is used comes entirely down to the engineer’s sense and aesthetic.When that is done it is not just distortion but above all tonality and certain effects and if that is distortion it is higher than that of audio equipment and it not over an entire mix but for each individual 'instrument' or 'voice'.
So no ... 'voicing' of electronics is nothing like sound manipulation in studios.
I suspect he knows considerably more than "this."You probably just don’t know this
No. That is called, well, mastering! It is any and all modification of the music to fit whatever subjective sense the mastering engineer has. It has nothing to do whatsoever with voicing as we are talking about.You probably just don’t know this, but mastering is the process of voicing music that’s already been mixed down into stereo.
This is utter nonsense. You can't 'design' an amplifier that has a certain amount of distortion in the low end and is clean in the higher frequencies.but if there’s an audio gear designer who constantly feels that the low end lacks distortion, and if there are users who resonate with that,
I listen to a lot of music and most popular music that comes out of studios in the last decades is squashed to death with limiters, compressors and is not tonally correct.for you to criticize that as if the material delivered by the mastering engineer is the one and only correct version, and any other preference is unacceptable—that just comes across as snobbish and arrogant, I think.
Except that even this is not really "voicing" as it will cause a different EQ effect with every speaker, so that the box of gain will not have a specific "voice."undesirable high and frequency dependent output resistance that interacts with the impedance of a speaker
Sure, if we're limiting the discussion strictly to opamps used as mere buffers or amplifiers like you said, then you're right. But I'm commenting on amirm's post, and I'm talking about the broader picture of 'voicing', including transformers and tube amps.This is utter nonsense. You can't 'design' an amplifier that has a certain amount of distortion in the low end and is clean in the higher frequencies.
Besides ... when you 'add' distortion it isn't just 'harmonic distortion' you also add IM distortion.
I listen to a lot of music and most popular music that comes out of studios in the last decades is squashed to death with limiters, compressors and is not tonally correct.
Of course there still are well made recordings (fortunately) that have been recorded really well.
Any idea what the distortion levels is in such recordings ? Can this be 'rescued' by adding another 0.01 % of distortion in such a way that this improves the sound quality ?
But really ... we are talking about 'op-amp' rolling as a 'tool' to 'voice' electronic equipment here. Not about tube gear intended for musicians, plug-ins intended for recording.
This thread is about using different op-amps that would 'change the sound in an audibly pleasant way' where other op-amps would somehow not be able.
We are talking about differences in 0.001% range for suitable and in audio used op-amps. Not 'a designer adds more distortion in the bass and customers agree'.
We are talking about added distortion products that are 80dB (0.01%) to 100dB (0.001%) below that of the applied signal.
Have a look at the distortion measured by pma and then tell me if that's what is being used in studios to 'voice' the final mix or what 'audio gear designers' use to 'voice' their amplifiers.
Listen to music quite loud, then you attenuate your signal by 80dB what do you hear ? absolutely nothing... that's what you hear.
And now you tell me that when music is being blasted quite loud you can hear that 'silence' and call that 'voicing' ?
I agree about certain tube gear with intentional distortion levels (in the percent range) and undesirable high and frequency dependent output resistance that interacts with the impedance of a speaker. You could call that deliberate 'voicing' and there are people that prefer that 'sauce' pored over everything.
But op-amps that only will differ slightly in distortion in inaudible amounts above 1kHz, is not 'voicing' at all but a marketing strategy and makes use of how the human brain 'works'.
It has ZERO to do with 'voicing' and is literally thousands of times smaller in magnitude than even the most subtle 'plug-in' found in studios.
I know... pretty arrogant of me to state all this.. you must think.
That's the topic of the thread...You're narrowing the discussion to opamps
Okay, then let me ask you this—let's take an amplification circuit that uses only op-amps, like a microphone preamp, for example. Can you explain why the Millennia Media HV-3, which is used in an enormous number of professional recordings including jazz and classical, sounds dramatically different from a cheap op-amp-based mic preamp? Not just cheap ones—over the past 30 years, many designers have released preamps, even quite expensive ones, claiming they're better than the HV-3. But the HV-3's dominance in the market still hasn't changed. In the end, isn’t that difference in sound ultimately due to the choice of components and circuit design?That's the topic of the thread...
JSmith
Do they roll the opamps for each genre?jazz and classical
Hmm...sounds dramatically different
Noise: 60 dB Gain, 10 Hz – 30 kHz, Inputs common: -133 dB EIN
Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise: 35 dB Gain, 10 Hz – 20 kHz bandwidth, +27 dBu Out: < .001%, Typ. < .0005% (< 5 ppm)
Intermodulation Distortion: (50 Hz & 7 kHz) 35 dB Gain, +27 dBu Out: < .0009%
Noise (60 dBu Gain, 10 Hz - 30 kHz, Inputs common) -133 dB EIN
Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (35 dB Gain, 10 Hz - 20 kHz bandwidth, +27 dBu Out) < .001%, Typ. < .0005% (< 5 ppm)
Intermodulation Distortion (50 Hz & 7 kHz) 35 dB Gain, +27 dBu Out < .0009%
Noise (60 dBu Gain, 10 Hz - 30 kHz, Inputs common) -133 dB EIN
Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise ( 35 dB Gain, 10 Hz - 20 kHz bandwidth, +27 dBu Out) < .001%, Typ. < .0005% (< 5 ppm)
Intermodulation Distortion (50 Hz & 7 kHz), 35 dB Gain, +27 dBu Out) < .0009%
Are you sure it is due to the used op-amps or could that be caused by the circuit the op-amps are used in and determines the loading of the mic/instrument input for instance.Can you explain why the Millennia Media HV-3, which is used in an enormous number of professional recordings including jazz and classical, sounds dramatically different from a cheap op-amp-based mic preamp?
Which "cheap op-amp based mic preamp" specifically? And where was this verified?Can you explain why the Millennia Media HV-3, which is used in an enormous number of professional recordings including jazz and classical, sounds dramatically different from a cheap op-amp-based mic preamp?