Does Op-amp Rolling Work?

[sabih]

I have also tried several opamps.
But I keep coming back to NE5532 (original).
There something exceptionally good about NE5532.
Second place is NJM2068 which is also used many in high end equipment in Japan.

 

[morillon]

The 553* is an old pain in the neck, still there...
but the developments on the fet have always intrigued us more since the tl71...134 164 627..1656... etc.
(repeats myself...but it is in the ultra simple and modest diagram of the last little fosi preamp that these tests would have been more instructive I suspect ;-) subjectif and mesureaments)

 

[tmtomh]

read Post: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...op-amp-rolling-work.61518/page-2#post-2255021

sure.
input and output current and voltage noise for example.


As i said ther absolutely can be a "better" DAC but this dose not mean you hear a difference if its integrated in a system.

So the DACs are tested in isolation

Again, fine - but all you're doing is listing specifications for which an op amp could potentially measure better than another op amp.

We can say, as you have, that "op amps can be better and it depends on the parameters and applications" - and we can keep saying that forever, if we never actually define what the relevant parameters are for a given application, and if performance in those parameters has already reached a level where the op amp is not detracting from any relevant performance measure of the component it's a part of.

So for the third time, I'm going to note that from Amir's testing it appears there's no need or point to op amps that perform better than all the ones he's tested - and all the ones he's tested perform identically (or virtually and functionally identically) to each other in the relevant application.

If you disagree with the above statement, that's cool - but in that case, say so, and say why.

 

[Mike_Trueman]

The comments section of that video has some real gems in it

For me they all sound the same only OpAmpC got some noise if you listen very close, specialy on track 2 you can hear it.

 

[DMB90]

Took you a year before your first post!

The answer to your question is perhaps the TPA amplifier that does the heavy lifting of the speaker level amplification? ... which points to the point (or lack of so) for this kind of op-amp rolling exercises.

View attachment 436932

Took you a year before your first post!

The answer to your question is perhaps the TPA amplifier that does the heavy lifting of the speaker level amplification? ... which points to the point (or lack of so) for this kind of op-amp rolling exercises.

View attachment 436932

Sorry for my infrequent posts My point is it may be better comparing the OPAMPs using an amp that can do better than THD+N 0.001 to see the difference. There was a review here of a Buckeye NC252MP build which use Hypex NE5532s and the measurements showed THD/N 0.0014. I used to own NC250MP based monoblocks which use the same NE5532s and they sounded very good. I have since then upgraded to RCVTech NCX500 based monoblocks which came with MUSES02 OPAMPs which I have tried swapping with few discrete and IC OPAMPs. I have measured all them using a Quantasylum analyzer. MUSES02 THD measured in my setup 0.0006 the same as the Hypex default NCX500 but Sparkos 3602 had THD of 0.0002. Other IC and discrete OPAMPs (in the same price range) had THD higher than 0.004.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

For me they all sound the same only OpAmpC got some noise if you listen very close, specialy on track 2 you can hear it.

There's a few flaws with the test setup anyways.

I, nor any of us with good intentions (like amir), will ever be able to convince everyone of the objective truths in this hobby. The very least I can do now that my company has become a moderate presence in the audio industry is not peddle the money grab others do and vocalize why I know it's a shill/money grab.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

Sorry for my infrequent posts My point is it may be better comparing the OPAMPs using an amp that can do better than THD+N 0.001 to the the difference.

But they would be inaudible differences, which is the whole point of the discussion.

 

[Lambda]

So for the third time, I'm going to note that from Amir's testing it appears there's no need or point to op amps that perform better than all the ones he's tested - and all the ones he's tested perform identically (or virtually and functionally identically) to each other in the relevant application.

Seems like I have to repeat myself.

If we were to test amplifiers or DACs by ear as part of an uncontrolled midrange system—even with double-blind, randomized ABX testing and level matching—we wouldn't reach a meaningful conclusion about which DAC is better, as long as they aren’t broken.

This doesn’t mean there are no DACs that measurably perform better. It just means that this component alone doesn’t have a significant overall effect.


There are excellent €100 DACs, and there are slightly better €800 DACs. You won’t hear a difference.
Even if you measure with a microphone in your listening room, you will likely see no significant difference.


So, when engineering a hi-fi system, it makes no sense to spend extra money on an expensive DAC, even if it measures better on its own!?


The same can be true for an op-amp in a system. It likely makes no significant difference, so upgrading to a "better" op-amp doesn’t make financial sense.

 

[NTTY]

Even well-known manufacturers who base their amplifiers on TPA32XX chips do so. I'm pasting a post I made in another thread, from page 7, #139:

Holy shit, this is what Aiyima themselves have to say about what it sounds like with different op amps in their A04 & A07!

NE5532: The resolution is average, the high frequency is relatively dry, and the low frequency is relatively muddy and fat.

OP275: Better resolution, low frequency and sound field than NE5532.

EL2244: The timbre is neutral, the sound field is relatively wide, the high frequency is okay, and the mid-frequency music tastes poor. Some people say that the resolution is very high. In fact, it is because the low-frequency volume is less, the mid-frequency is thin, and the high-frequency is prominent. It is more difficult to use well.

LT1057: The two ends extend well, and the speed, dynamics and resolution are also quite good, but it is a cool tone.

AD827: The extension is very good, the resolution is high, the high frequency is gorgeous, the intermediate frequency is pure and thick, the low frequency dive and the strength are good, the sound field expands forward and backward, the speed is good, the dynamics are good, and it feels very exciting. It feels refreshing. But after listening for a long time, I found many problems. 1 Although the three-frequency band, the sound field is very wide, the momentum is strong, and the opening is wide, but the structure is a bit loose and not tight enough. 2 The vocal part is average, sometimes large In the dynamic state, the vocals are submerged by the soundtrack. 3 It is not detailed enough, which is more than passion but not tender enough.

OPA2604: It feels like an upgraded version of NE5532, with great improvements in all aspects, good resolution, better musical taste, courageous, solid sound bottom and a bit rigid, and the overall quality is very good.

DY649: Compared with OPA2604, the resolution is better. The high frequency part is slender and soft and rich in overtones. The sound bottom is not thicker than OPA2604. It has a clear and detailed feeling. The music picture is very clear. The vocal part is round and transparent, and sweet. The sweet feeling, human voice (especially female voice) is its strong point.

DY639: The overallity is slightly weaker than DY649, but it has the characteristics of tube amplifier.

DY669: Not too different from OPA2604, pure and thick voice.

AD712: The resolving power is very good, the sound is clear and without coloration, a very transparent feeling, the sound bottom is detailed, and the low frequency is slightly less.

Serious Question: How can Op Amp rolling improve the sound of an already well measuring device? Are that many confused? (Master Thread)

Note that as previously expressed elsewhere, I am very suspicious of any results worse than the TL072/M5218... presumably one of the supply pins had poor contact in the socket (oxidized IC pins could be another factor along those lines) or a bad solder joint. It's not like -90ish dBr worth of...

audiosciencereview.com

The OP Chip Can Use on AIYIMA A04 & A07

Currently, the op chip used on AIYIMA A04 & A07 is NE5532. Although NE5532 performs well, many audiophiles still want to improve the sound quality by replacing the OP chip. Here we recommend some replaceable OP chips. NE5532: The resolution is average, the high frequency is relatively dry, and...

www.aiyima.com

That reminds me of the Asus Sonar Essence One Muse Edition, of 10+ years ago, which came with different OPAmps. Similarly, the user guide mentioned:

DAC I/V Slot 1	DAC Buffer Slot2	Sound Impression
TI - OPA2107	TI - OPA2132	Brighter vocal, slightly less booming sound
TI - OPA2107	NS - LME49860	Even brighter than the above combination, and more detailed with less but tighter booming sound
NS - LME49720	NS - LM4562NA	Less warm than stock OP-amps, more extensive detailed and dampened mid-range, Essence ST/STX style
NS - LM4562NA	NS - LM4562NA	Wider sound stage but less detailed than the above combination
NS - LM4562NA	NJRC - MUSE02	Powerful, punchy sound with good sound stage; less detailed present.
NS - LME49720	NJRC - MUSE02	Brighter, thinner sound and more detailed than the above combination

I remember the YBA CD1 player achieving a more open sounding when playing a CD with... the CD bay's sliding door open

Brandolini's law: We'll still be talking about it in a zillion years.

 

[MCH]

Anyone willing to help this guy out? i pointed him here but he says amir's testing is not up to the task (?, not sure if i understood him well)

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskElectronics/comments/1jd6lvb/help_choosing_upgrade_op_amp_for_my_dj_mixer

 

[tmtomh]

Seems like I have to repeat myself.

If we were to test amplifiers or DACs by ear as part of an uncontrolled midrange system—even with double-blind, randomized ABX testing and level matching—we wouldn't reach a meaningful conclusion about which DAC is better, as long as they aren’t broken.

This doesn’t mean there are no DACs that measurably perform better. It just means that this component alone doesn’t have a significant overall effect.


There are excellent €100 DACs, and there are slightly better €800 DACs. You won’t hear a difference.
Even if you measure with a microphone in your listening room, you will likely see no significant difference.


So, when engineering a hi-fi system, it makes no sense to spend extra money on an expensive DAC, even if it measures better on its own!?


The same can be true for an op-amp in a system. It likely makes no significant difference, so upgrading to a "better" op-amp doesn’t make financial sense.

Good grief - we’re in agreement on this.

 

[DMB90]

But they would be inaudible differences, which is the whole point of the discussion.

Well, it depends on the entire listening setup i.e speakers and cables need to be on the same quality level. In my setup the opamps I have tried had noticeable differences. e.g JRC MUSES02 seemed to have better control of the base. The sound also seems more transparent once THD/N goes to 0.000N range.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

Well, it depends on the entire listening setup i.e speakers and cables need to be on the same quality level. In my setup the opamps I have tried had noticeable differences. e.g JRC MUSES02 seemed to have better control of the base. The sound also seems more transparent once THD/N goes to 0.000N range.

There is a difference between subjective and objective.

Guess I should have said "Objectively, there will be no audible differences"

 

[JustJones]

Well, it depends on the entire listening setup i.e speakers and cables need to be on the same quality level. In my setup the opamps I have tried had noticeable differences. e.g JRC MUSES02 seemed to have better control of the base. The sound also seems more transparent once THD/N goes to 0.000N range.

Perhaps I'm really misunderstanding but are you saying you can hear the difference between something that has a THD/N of 0.000N and 0.00N ? Can you define more transparent? Is there a transparent, more transparent, most transparent?

 

[DMB90]

I am not sure if going from 1080p TV to 4K is a good analogy.

 

[Doodski]

I am not sure if going from 1080p TV to 4K is a good analogy.

Your commentary is full of words that disclaim and minimize commitment all the while you claim to hear miniscule variations due to wire quality and such. You have no idea of what you speak and are apparently living a OP amp fantasy.

 

[im_gumby]

It was a lot more expensive. Ergo, "it must be better." At least half the comment in my review of Douk A5 on you tube specifically asked for these expensive discrete Op-amps and hence this test.

As I showed in the review, past DAC tests with larger set of op-amps showed the same. As did Purifi amplifier tests.

Amir,
I've asked this before yet haven't gotten any response. So lets try it again ...

I am not questioning your measurements and lets accept them at face value.

But when we hear the audiophiles and even non-audiophiles talk about depth of sound stage, tone, clarity, imagery (sound placement), control, etc ...
How do you measure that? Or rather how do your measurements reflect perceived changes in that?

And that is what I am asking...

Sorry for being skeptical.
Clearly the point of view here (ASR) is that measurements uber alles and that anything subjective is nonsense.

And I have to disagree. Just because something is subjective... doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Doodski]

Amir,
I've asked this before yet haven't gotten any response. So lets try it again ...

I am not questioning your measurements and lets accept them at face value.

But when we hear the audiophiles and even non-audiophiles talk about depth of sound stage, tone, clarity, imagery (sound placement), control, etc ...
How do you measure that? Or rather how do your measurements reflect perceived changes in that?

And that is what I am asking...

Sorry for being skeptical.
Clearly the point of view here (ASR) is that measurements uber alles and that anything subjective is nonsense.

And I have to disagree. Just because something is subjective... doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

When the graphs indicate the differences are so miniscule as to be inaudible to the human ear then the differences do not exist.

 

[antcollinet]

Well, it depends on the entire listening setup i.e speakers and cables need to be on the same quality level. In my setup the opamps I have tried had noticeable differences. e.g JRC MUSES02 seemed to have better control of the base. The sound also seems more transparent once THD/N goes to 0.000N range.

The consensus amongst most qualified engineers on this site, based on understanding how op amps work, and backed up by measurements - is that swapping op amps is a pointless waste of time and money. At best it will make no audible difference, at worst it might destabilise an amp and cause it to oscillate.

People might think they are hearing real differences but this will almost certainly be because they are not testing blind (not typically possible when swapping op amps) and are hearing the effect of perceptive bias. Alternatively they may be hearing the effect of a destabilised amp oscillating. This is never a good thing.

Here is a thread with the test results given of numerous op-amps being swapped in a device. Net result - no audible improvements, some dramatic reductions in performance.

Fosi Audio V3 op-amp rolling, has anyone tried it? Snake oil? Or are there actual differences?

A plastic cup holds water. A glass looks better, has better specs in certain areas... but still it just needs to hold water, which it does fine be it crystal, Ikea glass or plastic. And sometimes the "worse" component, a plastic cup, is just what was specified for the job and lasts longer and...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[DMB90]

Your commentary is full of words that disclaim and minimize commitment all the while you claim to hear miniscule variations due to wire quality and such. You have no idea of what you speak and are apparently living a OP amp fantasy.

good one, that's why I don't post often