Does Op-amp Rolling Work?

[solderdude]

There's one thing I find suspicious, though. Why does SINAD increase slightly on both channels when @amirm replaces the 5532 on one channel with the discrete op-amp?

Are there additional buffer capacitors on the discrete op-amp's circuit boards?

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This has nothing to do with that but rather the fact that one channel has original opamp and the other channel has the expensive one.
No 2 channels measure exactly the same and even when he would have measured the same channel such 'differences' are to be expected and in the realm of tolerances.
Basically you are looking at the SINAD of the power stage (which is much higher in distortion than the opamps could ever add).

There might be some other limiting factor in this particular amplifier as NE5532 can do better than THD+N 0.003.

There is ... the output stage !

 

[LiviuTM]

There seems to be a misspelling in the conclusion, „Buy a performant audio product and use it as is.” sounds more logical than „But a performant ...”
Although I don't understand the technical stuff, the conclusion is crystal-clear to me: the whole counts much more than the parts. Well-designed and properly engineered products can perform well enough for their price point, often outperforming more expensive but less well-thought-out ones.

 

[solderdude]

Although I don't understand the technical stuff, the conclusion is crystal-clear to me: the whole counts much more than the parts. Well-designed and properly engineered products can perform well enough for their price point, often outperforming more expensive but less well-thought-out ones.

The conclusion is ... you generally do not have to bother swapping op-amps from a technical standpoint.

 

[Labjr]

You didn't try it with a Synergistic Research Master Quantum Fuse!

 

[Fleuch]

There are differences in operation and functioning between discrete and integrated opamps, highlighted by Amir early in the thread, such as temperature distribution.

Perhaps a comparison between two different integrated circuits from the same manufacturer, or between the same integrated circuit design from two different manufactures, might be a shade more relevant.

Replacing the integrated 5532 opamps with a discrete opamp in the Fosi or Aiyima amplifiers, an issue is the space available to insert the discrete opamp without having to manipulate other components on the board.

 

[Audionaut]

Hi @amirm, in order to help people experience these results rather than just read about them could you make a level matched recording of a music sample using each op amp and share them?

This forum is like a whining, never-satisfied child who should be totally content, but due to a lack of life experience is constantly generating new wishes.

 

[NTTY]

Replacing the integrated 5532 opamps with a discrete opamp in the Fosi or Aiyima amplifiers, an issue is the space available to insert the discrete opamp without having to manipulate other components on the board.

Not only in Amplifiers

Roughly two years ago, I went random opamp rolling, as I had time to waste. The only difference was when the socket started to wear due to my countless swap-in/out. I got significant distorsion in one case (which I could not hear).

 

[levimax]

This forum is like a whining, never-satisfied child who should be totally content, but due to a lack of life experience is constantly generating new wishes.

The intent of my suggestion was trying to think of a way to get people to experience for themselves the differences or lack thereof of what these op-amp swaps really sound like rather that just looking at graphs which seem to have very limited impact. For me personally actually doing a double blind level matched test was a huge eye opener and I think others could benefit from the experience. I am sorry if you take that as whining.

 

[Herbert Shooler]

Another thunderbolt of truth and another cash saving....Thanks Amir, rational audiophiles are truly indebted to your brilliance and honesty

 

[DanielT]

I won't name the manufacturer, but for instance a brand that offers Purifi 1ET6525SA amps offers a myriad of OP Amp options. The Sonic Imagery 990 adds $300 to the price of a monoblock build. The Weiss adds $500.

It's a rip off/cash grab.

Even well-known manufacturers who base their amplifiers on TPA32XX chips do so. I'm pasting a post I made in another thread, from page 7, #139:

Holy shit, this is what Aiyima themselves have to say about what it sounds like with different op amps in their A04 & A07!

NE5532: The resolution is average, the high frequency is relatively dry, and the low frequency is relatively muddy and fat.

OP275: Better resolution, low frequency and sound field than NE5532.

EL2244: The timbre is neutral, the sound field is relatively wide, the high frequency is okay, and the mid-frequency music tastes poor. Some people say that the resolution is very high. In fact, it is because the low-frequency volume is less, the mid-frequency is thin, and the high-frequency is prominent. It is more difficult to use well.

LT1057: The two ends extend well, and the speed, dynamics and resolution are also quite good, but it is a cool tone.

AD827: The extension is very good, the resolution is high, the high frequency is gorgeous, the intermediate frequency is pure and thick, the low frequency dive and the strength are good, the sound field expands forward and backward, the speed is good, the dynamics are good, and it feels very exciting. It feels refreshing. But after listening for a long time, I found many problems. 1 Although the three-frequency band, the sound field is very wide, the momentum is strong, and the opening is wide, but the structure is a bit loose and not tight enough. 2 The vocal part is average, sometimes large In the dynamic state, the vocals are submerged by the soundtrack. 3 It is not detailed enough, which is more than passion but not tender enough.

OPA2604: It feels like an upgraded version of NE5532, with great improvements in all aspects, good resolution, better musical taste, courageous, solid sound bottom and a bit rigid, and the overall quality is very good.

DY649: Compared with OPA2604, the resolution is better. The high frequency part is slender and soft and rich in overtones. The sound bottom is not thicker than OPA2604. It has a clear and detailed feeling. The music picture is very clear. The vocal part is round and transparent, and sweet. The sweet feeling, human voice (especially female voice) is its strong point.

DY639: The overallity is slightly weaker than DY649, but it has the characteristics of tube amplifier.

DY669: Not too different from OPA2604, pure and thick voice.

AD712: The resolving power is very good, the sound is clear and without coloration, a very transparent feeling, the sound bottom is detailed, and the low frequency is slightly less.

Serious Question: How can Op Amp rolling improve the sound of an already well measuring device? Are that many confused? (Master Thread)

Note that as previously expressed elsewhere, I am very suspicious of any results worse than the TL072/M5218... presumably one of the supply pins had poor contact in the socket (oxidized IC pins could be another factor along those lines) or a bad solder joint. It's not like -90ish dBr worth of...

audiosciencereview.com

The OP Chip Can Use on AIYIMA A04 & A07

Currently, the op chip used on AIYIMA A04 & A07 is NE5532. Although NE5532 performs well, many audiophiles still want to improve the sound quality by replacing the OP chip. Here we recommend some replaceable OP chips. NE5532: The resolution is average, the high frequency is relatively dry, and...

www.aiyima.com

 

[Somafunk]

Even well-known manufacturers who base their amplifiers on TPA32XX chips do so. I'm pasting a post I made in another thread, from page 7, #139:

Holy shit, this is what Aiyima themselves have to say about what it sounds like with different op amps in their A04 & A07!

I’d say to them…………If the differences are that noticeable then you will obviously be confident in taking a bet on being able to differentiate between them in a listening test

 

[Audionaut]

The intent of my suggestion was trying to think of a way to get people to experience for themselves the differences or lack thereof of what these op-amp swaps really sound like rather that just looking at graphs which seem to have very limited impact.

But there is NO difference.
So how could anything change in the sound?

When done, the measurements powerfully predict no audible difference.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

NE5532: The resolution is average, the high frequency is relatively dry, and the low frequency is relatively muddy and fat.

Ahh yes, the dreaded "dry" high frequency issue. I prefer my highs moist, thank you.

And my lows need to be lean with hints of muscle bulk.

 

[Labjr]

Even if it made a difference, you'd be better off starting with the entire signal chain being neutral. Then use DSP to color the sound to your liking. Trying to do it any other way is an endless exercise in futility. That is what keeps audiophile companies in business. Well, that and witchcraft.

I've actually helped a friend get off of the audiophile treadmill. He's pretty happy with Purifi and Wiim.

 

[levimax]

But there is NO difference.
So how could anything change in the sound?

Of course there is no difference but the point of this thread is to help educate people who are being fed a lot of BS. For me, and apparently some others, reading about "no audible difference" and double blind testing was intellectually interesting but I still had some doubts based on all the stuff I was reading from the "audiophiles" on the internet. When I actually experienced a controlled test for myself that is when it really hit home. I believe controlled listening tests experienced by individuals is the best way to educate them but it is too hard for many which is why I thought posting some samples would be helpful. As some others pointed out it probably would not work out as I hoped.

 

[Mike_Trueman]

Get some good headphones and listen for differences in this video

 

[JW001]

Without knowing anything about the circuit design or taking any measurements whatsoever... why do people think they can do better than the device engineers by randomly swapping opamps? That is more the question...


JSmith

Some believe that a more expensive device will yield a "better" sound, others - that opamps have some inherent, not measurable and magical "sound signature" that could be changed to their liking. All this is a distraction from real problems, such as poor speakers or room interactions.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

Get some good headphones and listen for differences in this video

The comments section of that video has some real gems in it

 

[Bob101]

The opamp song... to the tune of Rawhide;

Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Op-amps

Keep rollin', rollin', rollin'
Though the circuits are swollen
Keep those opamps rollin'
Op-amps

Through noise, distortion together
Hell-bent for better
Wishing my sound was clean and wide
All the things I’m changin’, good gain, smooth and flowin'
Are waitin' at the end of my ride

Move 'em on, swap 'em out, swap 'em out, move 'em on
Move 'em on, swap 'em out, opamps
Cut 'em out, roll 'em in, roll 'em in, cut 'em out
Cut 'em out, roll 'em in, opamps

Keep movin’, movin’, movin’
Though they’re disapprovin'
Keep those opamps movin’
Op-amps

Don’t try to understand ‘em
Just swap and tweak and brand ‘em
Soon we’ll be soundin’ high and wide
My heart’s recalculatin', my true sound is waitin'
Be waitin' at the end of my ride

Move 'em on, swap 'em out, swap 'em out, move 'em on
Move 'em on, swap 'em out, opamps
Cut 'em out, roll 'em in, roll 'em in, cut 'em out
Cut 'em out, roll 'em in, opamps

Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin' (yeah)
Rollin', rollin', rollin' (yeah)
Rollin', rollin', rollin' (yeah)
Op-amps (yeah, yeah, yeah)
Op-amps!


©
JSmith

And: Never give up, Never surrender!
Keep rollin' those opamps like they owe you money!

 

[DanielT]

I’d say to them…………If the differences are that noticeable then you will obviously be confident in taking a bet on being able to differentiate between them in a listening test

Ahh yes, the dreaded "dry" high frequency issue. I prefer my highs moist, thank you.

And my lows need to be lean with hints of muscle bulk.

Crazy in cubic form as the saying goes.

Aiyima probably knows that it's just bullshit. They're laughing all the way to the bank.

_______
By the way, thanks for taking the time to perform this op-amp rolling test Amir.