Subwoofer Comparison

[warthor]

Monolith is having a sale this weekend, and the sale includes items that are already marked down. If I had to choose between 1x 16" Subwoofer or 2 x dual 10" inch subwoofers which would you select? My home theater is in an a normal living room, which is open concept. The reason I mention both of those subwoofers is that they are on a great sale, and 2 of the M-210s cost the same as one 16" subwoofer (it is a fair battle in that sense). I don't really think in terms of price these options can be beat.

Monolith by Monoprice 16in THX Certified Ultra 2000-Watt Powered Subwoofer (Matte Black/Painted) - Monoprice.com

Monolith™ by Monoprice™16" THX® Certified Ultra 2000 Watt Powered SubwooferMassive Output. Low Distortion. THX® Certified.The Monolith™ 16" THX® Certified Ultra

www.monoprice.com

Monolith by Monoprice M-210 Dual 10in THX Certified Ultra 1000-Watt Powered Subwoofer - Monoprice.com

Monolith™ by Monoprice™Dual 10" THX® Certified Ultra SubwooferSets the standard for bass output, low distortion, and affordabilityThe Monolith™ Dual 10" THX® Certif

www.monoprice.com

(using code "smore" you get 15% off)

 

[elmura]

I have some non conforming advice on the matter of multiple subwoofers for the average Joe...
Adding a second or 3rd subwoofer does not automatically resolve peaks and nulls. Adding additional subwoofers actually complicates getting a smooth frequency response, not simplifying it.
To get a smooth response with multiple subwoofers requires much experimenting with placement, phase, crossover and potentially EQ of each sub whilst measuring the response at each listening position with a tripod mounted mic and software like REW.
The general guidelines for multiple subs are OK as a starting point, but the reality is that each room is different. Not only in dimensions, but seating position, furnishings, plus main speaker location & response.
It's a tough gig to smooth out peaks and nulls for all listeners.
On the positive side: one of the biggest benefits of multiple subs is the reduction in distortion when playing at high SPL since each sub does not have to output as much sound power to achieve the same average SPL since the load is shared between them.

 

[sonitus mirus]

I have some non conforming advice on the matter of multiple subwoofers for the average Joe...
Adding a second or 3rd subwoofer does not automatically resolve peaks and nulls. Adding additional subwoofers actually complicates getting a smooth frequency response, not simplifying it.
To get a smooth response with multiple subwoofers requires much experimenting with placement, phase, crossover and potentially EQ of each sub whilst measuring the response at each listening position with a tripod mounted mic and software like REW.
The general guidelines for multiple subs are OK as a starting point, but the reality is that each room is different. Not only in dimensions, but seating position, furnishings, plus main speaker location & response.
It's a tough gig to smooth out peaks and nulls for all listeners.
On the positive side: one of the biggest benefits of multiple subs is the reduction in distortion when playing at high SPL since each sub does not have to output as much sound power to achieve the same average SPL since the load is shared between them.

Yes, in my smaller room, a single subwoofer was able to sit in a corner and significantly reduce a null from my tower speakers' reflections. My sound absorption helped with highs and upper-mids, but DSP and absorption were not an option to tame the bass nulls. I honestly am unable to hear the sub directionally, and I would only know it was working and not part of the stereo speaker's sound if I turn off the front tower speakers.

This setup is in an office room where I work, and the music is mostly background listening with an occasional volume increase to jam for a bit. For cranking the volume to 11 and dancing around like Tom Cruise in Risky Business, I leave that for my living room.

 

[sweetchaos]

Labour Day sale...
Most Monoprice subs are on sale.
Most previously discontinued SVS subs (like the SB-1000, PB-1000, SB-2000, PB-2000) are available to order.

 

[sweetchaos]

Looks like Audioholics published CEA-2010 data for REL HT/1510 Predator II

REL Acoustics HT/1510 Predator II Sealed Subwoofer Review

The REL Acoustics HT/1510 Predator II is a 1,000 watt, 15” woofer, sealed bruiser. REL touts their subwoofers as being fast & musical. We evaluate that claim with measurements & associated trade offs.

www.audioholics.com

Video review coming up in a few hours:

This is a US$1900 15" sealed subwoofer, and has a rating of "Large".

Thoughts:
We can finally definitively say that REL subs are mediocre performers and completely overpriced against the competitors.
Something we (the community) already suspected for a long time, but it's nice to see confirmation with CEA-2010 data.
In other words, there's dozens of better-performing subs for your money.

 

[stoneeh]

NOT CEA-2010, but I feel like it doesn't hurt mentioning: I measured the Max. SPL of about a dozen (DIY and commercial) PA subwoofers last year and published the results on my Youtube channel. Method is THD limit with sine burst signal, measured with ARTA / STEPS; GPM; environment outdoor. All other details are in the video description.

Turn the music off and/or pause the video and scroll through with the arrow keys of your keyboard if you're just interested in the data without distraction. Enjoy.

 

[AJM1981]

Useful spreadsheet to some I guess, not bad!

When I get a subwoofer I mainly try to get one that connects well in bass extension for music and goes pretty deep.

It might seem obvious that there is plenty of choice in subs, but the lack of options in frequency covering and settings within the criteria 'and' availability within the EU is a fact unfortunately. Most subwoofers up to a certain price point seem to be more like what a woofer does for a floorstander and thus not really excel in the "sub department" .

I eventually got the great B&W Asw608 to support my Evo 4.2s. For my second set of Denton 85th I found my second choice Polk in a lower price range that didn't go as deep, but still provided a reasonable extension. All other options didnt go as deep, didnt have the right cut off point or had weird quirks (like a review mentioning one to shut down on standby when the volume was below a certain point)

For everyone living in Australia and the UK. Wharfedale has a great looking and praised budget sub (sw-150) on those markets that goes deep with excellent reviews and plenty of settings. It was my first choice and I have tried all possible ways within reasonable price tags to get one to my hometown, but it turned out not to be possible within reasonable pricing and conditions.

 

[delta76]

Thoughts:
We can finally definitively say that REL subs are mediocre performers and completely overpriced against the competitors.
Something we (the community) already suspected for a long time, but it's nice to see confirmation with CEA-2010 data.
In other words, there's dozens of better-performing subs for your money.

and yet there are still horde of people swear by REL. REL is for music, SVS is for movie

 

[Willem]

The only true test of a subwoofer's performance is the CEA-2010-A

I agree that it is an important test. However, it operates at the extremes of a sub's performance, i.e. it indicates how loud it can play particular frequencies at the maximum distortion that the norm deems acceptable. It does not tell us anything about the sound quality/distorton within that envelope. Does that matter? I don't know.

 

[sweetchaos]

That’s because REL’s marketing strategy has worked on many, unfortunately.

I have hope for newcomers, looking for best performance/dollar who’ll see my spreadsheet instead.

 

[Sancus]

I agree that it is an important test. However, it operates at the extremes of a sub's performance, i.e. it indicates how loud it can play particular frequencies at the maximum distortion that the norm deems acceptable. It does not tell us anything about the sound quality/distorton within that envelope. Does that matter? I don't know.

TBH I haven't seen any complaints that distortion at moderate levels is audible with most well-designed and built subs. The way CEA2010 is performed, it's pretty easy to collect that data if you are already doing that work. For example Data Bass always showed THD at fixed levels well below the threshold. If you look up the SVS PB12, you'll see that at 100dB it's at single digit %s from 20hz on up. Same with the SVS SB12, which is below 5% from 30hz+, but struggles a bit below that as you would expect from a small, sealed 12" sub.

Port noise sometimes CAN be an issue with very cheap ported subs even below the limits, but that's usually noticed by good reviewers, for example Erin always talks about how much port noise there is.

Overall I don't think distortion at moderate levels is a widespread problem with subs, but it certainly might be an issue with the odd one.

 

[TheFrator]

I have hope for newcomers, looking for best performance/dollar who’ll see my spreadsheet instead.

As one such newcomer to the world of stereo and subwoofers, thank you. I really appreciate the curation you've done.

 

[3125b]

I find myself looking at subs again - this time to actually buy one (or two).
Went for a Denon X2700 with a pair of KEF R5 for my living room setup (got a good deal).
Now those small KEFs will require a sub. I'm not looking for party-level SPL, just something decent for music and movies in a flat. The room isn't particularly challenging, 25m² (270ft²) and almost square.
Don't want to break the bank, but a couple bucks either direction don't matter.

I kind of like the Arendal 1963 1S. It's not that cheap at 899€, but plays down to 19Hz (-3dB) at more than reasonable levels, is compact (width being most importent, only 31,5cm) and not aggressively ugly.

An other option would be one or two cheaper subs, maybe Nubert XW-700 at 495€/each it plays down to 26Hz (-3dB) and is also DSP-corrected (offer room correction too, but I don't need that).

Any advice, I don't know which way to go. Thx.

 

[nat1]

Thoughts:
We can finally definitively say that REL subs are mediocre performers and completely overpriced against the competitors.
Something we (the community) already suspected for a long time, but it's nice to see confirmation with CEA-2010 data.
In other words, there's dozens of better-performing subs for your money.

Doesn't look like that bad of value for the UK and probably EU. For sealed there's the PSA S1512 and what else? The ported Monolith 15 Ultra is on sale right now which you can use in sealed mode but it's also significantly larger.

SVS value isn't exactly great here either. The SB4000 costs £2000.

 

[3125b]

The Monolith 13 THX Ultra is 1180€ at the moment and it's in a whole different league frankly.
The 12" that I got is still comparably powerful (10dB higher SPL at 20Hz with half the distortion and 3dB lower SPL at 40Hz, but again less than half the distortion) and 690€.
From the reviews I've seen so far sealed really only means higher distortion in the lowest frequencies, I don't get the appeal of that.

 

[Feyire]

The Monolith 13 THX Ultra is 1180€ at the moment and it's in a whole different league frankly.
The 12" that I got is still comparably powerful (10dB higher SPL at 20Hz with half the distortion and 3dB lower SPL at 40Hz, but again less than half the distortion) and 690€.
From the reviews I've seen so far sealed really only means higher distortion in the lowest frequencies, I don't get the appeal of that.

..or dual Monolith V2 10" (€559.99 x 2 - sale price) for about the same price as one Monolith 13.

 

[srrxr71]

The lower the bass goes, the more of it I want. I feel kind of sad when I don't get a clean 20Hz for music.

Side note. Barely related to the discussion.

Nice going @sweetchaos

Fair enough. In some other thread we were discussing where these tones come from.

Someone pointed out a piano can go as low as 29Hz but rarely played there.

Someone else mentioned intermodulation is the source of these sub 29Hz tones.

I offered a question about the presence of “undertones” where do these frequencies come from?

 

[OzarkCDN]

Amazing, op! What a ton of work you've done - certainly helps collate the bits and bobs of disenfranchised spreadsheets I've found trying to research a sub for my room. So, I've read that multiple subs generally help to even response out in a room, but if I am looking at your sheet for my 5600 ft^3 room, I should be looking at a single 'extreme' sub. If multiples add to the total output, is there an easy way to generalize the possibility of reducing the sub size? ie, if I need a single 'Extreme', is it reasonable to use two 'Large'?

 

[nat1]

The Monolith 13 THX Ultra is 1180€ at the moment and it's in a whole different league frankly.
The 12" that I got is still comparably powerful (10dB higher SPL at 20Hz with half the distortion and 3dB lower SPL at 40Hz, but again less than half the distortion) and 690€.
From the reviews I've seen so far sealed really only means higher distortion in the lowest frequencies, I don't get the appeal of that.

Way to miss the point entirely. The 13 Ultra is almost twice the size of the REL. Nobody here is arguing that ported isn't better for performance. There simply isn't many options for the size class in the UK/EU market.

 

[sweetchaos]

Amazing, op! What a ton of work you've done - certainly helps collate the bits and bobs of disenfranchised spreadsheets I've found trying to research a sub for my room.

Thanks for your feedback.

So, I've read that multiple subs generally help to even response out in a room, but if I am looking at your sheet for my 5600 ft^3 room, I should be looking at a single 'extreme' sub. If multiples add to the total output, is there an easy way to generalize the possibility of reducing the sub size? ie, if I need a single 'Extreme', is it reasonable to use two 'Large'?

The cool thing about bass summation is that it’s frequency dependent. Well really, wavelength dependent. That means that with multiple subs you only get a 3dB increase for each doubling of subwoofers. But you really are getting a 6dB increase below about 30hz.

I've previously explained about how 'Bassaholic' protocol works.
Here are the formulas:

Small:
=IF(AND(25hz<103,31.5hz<109), "Small", "")
Small/Medium:
=IF(OR(AND(25hz<103,31.5hz>=109), AND(25hz>=103,31.5hz<109)), "Small/Medium", "")
Medium:
=IF((AND(25hz>=103,31.5hz>=109,40hz>=109,50hz>=109,63hz>=109)), "Medium", "")
Large:
=IF((AND(25hz>=109,31.5hz>=115,40hz>=115,50hz>=115,63hz>=115)), "Large", "")
Extreme:
=IF((AND(25hz>=117,31.5hz>=123,40hz>=123,50hz>=123,63hz>=123)), "Extreme", "")

You can literally recreate my spreadsheet by following the formula above.

So with my first point about multiple subwoofers, and the formulas above, you can calculate the output needed for multiple subwoofers, for your room.