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Genelec 5.2.4 HT/Music Setup

Sancus

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People have seemed interested in multi-channel Genelec setups for a while now, so I figured I would make one post with photos and other information about my own setup, rather than pointing people to posts spread over a dozen+ threads.

ndMNMWX.png


qL885Zo.jpg


Gear
L/C/R are Genelec 8351Bs.
LS/RS are Genelec 8341As.
4 x Heights are Neumann KH80.
2 x Subwoofers are Arendal 1723 2S.

Stands are: K&M 26706 Base Plate + 24623 Rod (heights/surrounds) + 26736 Rod (L/R). The 19780 adapter is used for all speakers, but the 19610 could also be used. The 8351Bs are pretty near the weight limit for that adapter, so they tend to sag a bit, but flipping the adapters upside down(so the angle adjustment can only tilt upwards) fixed that. The friction clamp on the 19780 will not hold an 8351B(14.3kg) but will hold an 8341A(9.8kg). If the speaker is at the minimum height, the clamp does not need to support the weight because it will rest on the lower tube section.

Electronics: Denon X4500H + Nvidia Shield TV Pro.

TV: LG 65" C9 OLED.

For anyone else who wants to do this, I suggest taking care with selecting your distance rods, since the 19780 adapter clamps on the upper 35mm section of the rod, but NOT on the lower 42mm one. So there is a minimum height you can use that depends on the particular rod.

FAQ
1. Why not use digital outputs for the Genelecs?

So far it's not really practical if you want an AVP that can decode Atmos and upmix w/Auro3D, which I do. The cheapest option is the JBL SDP-55($6K) with its Dante outputs, but that has some kind of bug that makes a ticking sound sometimes. Other options would be Storm/Trinnov processors(too $$$ for me) with digital output options, or modifying your own AVR to have digital outputs. I am very skeptical there is any audible improvement except maybe a small noise floor reduction, so it's not a major concern. I would like to use Dante just to clean up the cabling situation, though.

2. Why not use Genelec subwoofers? Don't they integrate better?

Genelec subwoofers are really expensive relative to the SPL they output. And unfortunately, GLM does not have a particularly sophisticated subwoofer EQ system for home listening. This post elaborates. But the short version is that GLM's subwoofer EQ strategy is not as sophisticated as Multi-Sub Optimizer or Dirac Bass Control. All that said, Genelec subwoofers are very convenient especially for stereo setups and I wouldn't hesitate to buy them if you don't want to worry about manual sub integration.

3. Do you use GLM or Audyssey?

I use both. I run GLM first, and then Audyssey afterwards. This minimizes the corrections Audyssey needs to perform. Doing it the other way around would also work, but it introduces the problem that GLM might create a level or EQ mismatch in the subwoofer crossover area, since it cannot measure the subwoofers. If I had a full Genelec system with Genelec subwoofers, I would probably only use GLM.

4. Measurements?

I'll add more detail later, but for now here is a single point full-range measurement and a spectrogram. This is after GLM+Audyssey correction, and with Multi-Sub Optimizer. Since this is a single point measurement, the high frequency information is not super accurate.

index.php


index.php


5. Why no room treatment?

Mostly haven't gotten around to it. The frequency response is pretty good as-is, honestly. I would like to reduce the RT60 times somewhat overall but that's about it. I am planning to add a little room treatment eventually, but I need to make sure I purchase things that will look reasonably decent in the room and match the furniture etc, so that is a concern, and may require a custom order. That complicates things since I need to figure out where I want treatment before I order it.

6. Why not ported subs/Why dual opposed subs?

They're mostly too large for my space. While there are similar sized ported subs to the Arendals that offer a bit more low end output, they tend to have port tunings above/close to 20hz, and I don't love the increased group delay caused by that. It's very unclear if it's audible, to be honest, but I'd rather not worry about it. Also, a nice side benefit of dual opposed woofer subs is that they don't physically vibrate or move at all. So you can reasonably use them as end tables, as I am doing on the right side of the sofa, and you don't have to worry about anything rattling or falling off of them.

7. How did you use Multi-Sub Optimizer with this setup?

Good question. The TLDR; is that you can use anything that allows PEQs for each subwoofer channels, and in this case, the subwoofers themselves have 7 PEQ slots for each one. There is some information in this post here. I am planning to write a mini-tutorial on this later.

8. How are your heights configured?

They are set as "Front" and "Rear" heights. This is fairly important, as "Surround Heights" will NOT be used for Atmos output. Yes, this is a little out of spec because they're not really "Rear" heights, but it sounds fine. I am aware some people like to be super picky about using tops and heights separately for Atmos and Auro3D, but that just isn't practical in a space like this. Honestly, I think heights work OK for Atmos, as long as the angle between the listener and the speaker is relatively steep. At the end of the day, you're always better off with suboptimally positioned height/tops than none.

9. Why Neumann KH80s for heights and not Genelec 8331As or 8030C etc/Why don't the Neumanns match?

The Neumanns were my first purchases, and the black ones were on sale. I bought them before I'd even decided to start using Genelecs. I likely will replace them eventually with matching white Genelecs(but 8331As are insanely expensive for height use...) but it's a low priority. Probably won't happen until I move and am forced to tear down the whole system anyways. There are no audible issues with them as they are, heights just aren't that important.

10. Why not Genelec 8361As for L/C/R?

I considered them, but I think they're a bit too large and they're also heavier than I wanted to deal with. They would not be able to be mounted using the adapters and stands I've chosen, for example. This system has plenty of output for a ~2.5m listening distance, especially since I upmix everything with Auro3D so the center helps even stereo material. Of course I want W371As one day, but probably not in this room...

11. Why no W371As?

I accept donations. :)
 
Last edited:

AudioJester

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Very cool. Do you play music in full surround or just movies?
Looks like your in an apartment, do your neighbours complain?
 

Blumlein 88

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Is this the worst space for home theater I've seen? All white, and surrounded by windows. I know OLED can handle it better than most types of displays, but wow. Most certainly wouldn't work for anyone's projector display.

OTOH, for the sound part, you've done an excellent job of working with the space I think. :)
 
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Sancus

Sancus

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Very cool. Do you play music in full surround or just movies?
Looks like your in an apartment, do your neighbours complain?
I usually leave Auro3D upmixing on. I almost always find it to be an upgrade over stereo. I also have a couple hundred albums of multichannel music between 5.1 stuff and Atmos on TIDAL and a few albums bought from 2L.

No complaints, no. But this is a concrete high rise with strict, above code sound proofing requirements. I listen around 75-80dB average usually. Not super quiet but not crazy loud either.

Is this the worst space for home theater I've seen? All white, and surrounded by windows. I know OLED can handle it better than most types of displays, but wow. Most certainly wouldn't work for anyone's projector display.

OTOH, for the sound part, you've done an excellent job of working with the space I think. :)
Yeah it's not enjoyable during the day except for brighter animated stuff. Unfortunately no other option. All exterior walls in every room are floor to ceiling windows.

Frankly I just don't watch stuff until it's night usually, at night it's fine. And that is kinda for the best lol I have other stuff to do during the day.

Thanks :) The sound is indeed great at all times!
 

FrantzM

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People have seemed interested in multi-channel Genelec setups for a while now, so I figured I would make one post with photos and other information about my own setup, rather than pointing people to posts spread over a dozen+ threads.

ndMNMWX.png


qL885Zo.jpg


Gear
L/C/R are Genelec 8351Bs.
LS/RS are Genelec 8341As.
4 x Heights are Neumann KH80.
2 x Subwoofers are Arendal 1723 2S.

Stands are: K&M 26706 Base Plate + 24623 Rod (heights/surrounds) + 26736 Rod (L/R). The 19780 adapter is used for all speakers, but the 19610 could also be used. The 8351Bs are pretty near the weight limit for that adapter, so they tend to sag a bit, but flipping the adapters upside down(so the angle adjustment can only tilt upwards) fixed that. The friction clamp on the 19780 will not hold an 8351B(14.3kg) but will hold an 8341A(9.8kg). If the speaker is at the minimum height, the clamp does not need to support the weight because it will rest on the lower tube section.

Electronics: Denon X4500H + Nvidia Shield TV Pro.

TV: LG 65" C9 OLED.

For anyone else who wants to do this, I suggest taking care with selecting your distance rods, since the 19780 adapter clamps on the upper 35mm section of the rod, but NOT on the lower 42mm one. So there is a minimum height you can use that depends on the particular rod.

FAQ
1. Why not use digital outputs for the Genelecs?

So far it's not really practical if you want an AVP that can decode Atmos and upmix w/Auro3D, which I do. The cheapest option is the JBL SDP-55($6K) with its Dante outputs, but that has some kind of bug that makes a ticking sound sometimes. Other options would be Storm/Trinnov processors(too $$$ for me) with digital output options, or modifying your own AVR to have digital outputs. I am very skeptical there is any audible improvement except maybe a small noise floor reduction, so it's not a major concern. I would like to use Dante just to clean up the cabling situation, though.

2. Why not use Genelec subwoofers? Don't they integrate better?

Genelec subwoofers are really expensive relative to the SPL they output. And unfortunately, GLM does not have a particularly sophisticated subwoofer EQ system for home listening. This post elaborates. But the short version is that GLM's subwoofer EQ strategy is not as sophisticated as Multi-Sub Optimizer or Dirac Bass Control. All that said, Genelec subwoofers are very convenient especially for stereo setups and I wouldn't hesitate to buy them if you don't want to worry about manual sub integration.

3. Do you use GLM or Audyssey?

I use both. I run GLM first, and then Audyssey afterwards. This minimizes the corrections Audyssey needs to perform. Doing it the other way around would also work, but it introduces the problem that GLM might create a level or EQ mismatch in the subwoofer crossover area, since it cannot measure the subwoofers. If I had a full Genelec system with Genelec subwoofers, I would probably only use GLM.

4. Measurements?

I'll add more detail later, but for now here is a single point full-range measurement and a spectrogram. This is after GLM+Audyssey correction, and with Multi-Sub Optimizer. Since this is a single point measurement, the high frequency information is not super accurate.

index.php


index.php


5. Why no room treatment?

Mostly haven't gotten around to it. The frequency response is pretty good as-is, honestly. I would like to reduce the RT60 times somewhat overall but that's about it. I am planning to add a little room treatment eventually, but I need to make sure I purchase things that will look reasonably decent in the room and match the furniture etc, so that is a concern, and may require a custom order. That complicates things since I need to figure out where I want treatment before I order it.

6. Why not ported subs/Why dual opposed subs?

They're mostly too large for my space. While there are similar sized ported subs to the Arendals that offer a bit more low end output, they tend to have port tunings above/close to 20hz, and I don't love the increased group delay caused by that. It's very unclear if it's audible, to be honest, but I'd rather not worry about it. Also, a nice side benefit of dual opposed woofer subs is that they don't physically vibrate or move at all. So you can reasonably use them as end tables, as I am doing on the right side of the sofa, and you don't have to worry about anything rattling or falling off of them.

7. How did you use Multi-Sub Optimizer with this setup?

Good question. The TLDR; is that you can use anything that allows PEQs for each subwoofer channels, and in this case, the subwoofers themselves have 7 PEQ slots for each one. There is some information in this post here. I am planning to write a mini-tutorial on this later.

8. How are your heights configured?

They are set as "Front" and "Rear" heights. This is fairly important, as "Surround Heights" will NOT be used for Atmos output. Yes, this is a little out of spec because they're not really "Rear" heights, but it sounds fine. I am aware some people like to be super picky about using tops and heights separately for Atmos and Auro3D, but that just isn't practical in a space like this. Honestly, I think heights work OK for Atmos, as long as the angle between the listener and the speaker is relatively steep. At the end of the day, you're always better off with suboptimally positioned height/tops than none.

9. Why Neumann KH80s for heights and not Genelec 8331As or 8030C etc/Why don't the Neumanns match?

The Neumanns were my first purchases, and the black ones were on sale. I bought them before I'd even decided to start using Genelecs. I likely will replace them eventually with matching white Genelecs(but 8331As are insanely expensive for height use...) but it's a low priority. Probably won't happen until I move and am forced to tear down the whole system anyways. There are no audible issues with them as they are, heights just aren't that important.

10. Why not Genelec 8361As for L/C/R?

I considered them, but I think they're a bit too large and they're also heavier than I wanted to deal with. They would not be able to be mounted using the adapters and stands I've chosen, for example. This system has plenty of output for a ~2.5m listening distance, especially since I upmix everything with Auro3D so the center helps even stereo material. Of course I want W371As one day, but probably not in this room...

11. Why no W371As?

I accept donations. :)
EXCELLENT Post. Informative.!!!

I don't maintain a tally but I believe you are definitely on Frantz's Hate List.:p
Loooove your system.
 

sarumbear

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People have seemed interested in multi-channel Genelec setups for a while now, so I figured I would make one post with photos and other information about my own setup, rather than pointing people to posts spread over a dozen+ threads.

ndMNMWX.png


qL885Zo.jpg


Gear
L/C/R are Genelec 8351Bs.
LS/RS are Genelec 8341As.
4 x Heights are Neumann KH80.
2 x Subwoofers are Arendal 1723 2S.

Stands are: K&M 26706 Base Plate + 24623 Rod (heights/surrounds) + 26736 Rod (L/R). The 19780 adapter is used for all speakers, but the 19610 could also be used. The 8351Bs are pretty near the weight limit for that adapter, so they tend to sag a bit, but flipping the adapters upside down(so the angle adjustment can only tilt upwards) fixed that. The friction clamp on the 19780 will not hold an 8351B(14.3kg) but will hold an 8341A(9.8kg). If the speaker is at the minimum height, the clamp does not need to support the weight because it will rest on the lower tube section.

Electronics: Denon X4500H + Nvidia Shield TV Pro.

TV: LG 65" C9 OLED.

For anyone else who wants to do this, I suggest taking care with selecting your distance rods, since the 19780 adapter clamps on the upper 35mm section of the rod, but NOT on the lower 42mm one. So there is a minimum height you can use that depends on the particular rod.

FAQ
1. Why not use digital outputs for the Genelecs?

So far it's not really practical if you want an AVP that can decode Atmos and upmix w/Auro3D, which I do. The cheapest option is the JBL SDP-55($6K) with its Dante outputs, but that has some kind of bug that makes a ticking sound sometimes. Other options would be Storm/Trinnov processors(too $$$ for me) with digital output options, or modifying your own AVR to have digital outputs. I am very skeptical there is any audible improvement except maybe a small noise floor reduction, so it's not a major concern. I would like to use Dante just to clean up the cabling situation, though.

2. Why not use Genelec subwoofers? Don't they integrate better?

Genelec subwoofers are really expensive relative to the SPL they output. And unfortunately, GLM does not have a particularly sophisticated subwoofer EQ system for home listening. This post elaborates. But the short version is that GLM's subwoofer EQ strategy is not as sophisticated as Multi-Sub Optimizer or Dirac Bass Control. All that said, Genelec subwoofers are very convenient especially for stereo setups and I wouldn't hesitate to buy them if you don't want to worry about manual sub integration.

3. Do you use GLM or Audyssey?

I use both. I run GLM first, and then Audyssey afterwards. This minimizes the corrections Audyssey needs to perform. Doing it the other way around would also work, but it introduces the problem that GLM might create a level or EQ mismatch in the subwoofer crossover area, since it cannot measure the subwoofers. If I had a full Genelec system with Genelec subwoofers, I would probably only use GLM.

4. Measurements?

I'll add more detail later, but for now here is a single point full-range measurement and a spectrogram. This is after GLM+Audyssey correction, and with Multi-Sub Optimizer. Since this is a single point measurement, the high frequency information is not super accurate.

index.php


index.php


5. Why no room treatment?

Mostly haven't gotten around to it. The frequency response is pretty good as-is, honestly. I would like to reduce the RT60 times somewhat overall but that's about it. I am planning to add a little room treatment eventually, but I need to make sure I purchase things that will look reasonably decent in the room and match the furniture etc, so that is a concern, and may require a custom order. That complicates things since I need to figure out where I want treatment before I order it.

6. Why not ported subs/Why dual opposed subs?

They're mostly too large for my space. While there are similar sized ported subs to the Arendals that offer a bit more low end output, they tend to have port tunings above/close to 20hz, and I don't love the increased group delay caused by that. It's very unclear if it's audible, to be honest, but I'd rather not worry about it. Also, a nice side benefit of dual opposed woofer subs is that they don't physically vibrate or move at all. So you can reasonably use them as end tables, as I am doing on the right side of the sofa, and you don't have to worry about anything rattling or falling off of them.

7. How did you use Multi-Sub Optimizer with this setup?

Good question. The TLDR; is that you can use anything that allows PEQs for each subwoofer channels, and in this case, the subwoofers themselves have 7 PEQ slots for each one. There is some information in this post here. I am planning to write a mini-tutorial on this later.

8. How are your heights configured?

They are set as "Front" and "Rear" heights. This is fairly important, as "Surround Heights" will NOT be used for Atmos output. Yes, this is a little out of spec because they're not really "Rear" heights, but it sounds fine. I am aware some people like to be super picky about using tops and heights separately for Atmos and Auro3D, but that just isn't practical in a space like this. Honestly, I think heights work OK for Atmos, as long as the angle between the listener and the speaker is relatively steep. At the end of the day, you're always better off with suboptimally positioned height/tops than none.

9. Why Neumann KH80s for heights and not Genelec 8331As or 8030C etc/Why don't the Neumanns match?

The Neumanns were my first purchases, and the black ones were on sale. I bought them before I'd even decided to start using Genelecs. I likely will replace them eventually with matching white Genelecs(but 8331As are insanely expensive for height use...) but it's a low priority. Probably won't happen until I move and am forced to tear down the whole system anyways. There are no audible issues with them as they are, heights just aren't that important.

10. Why not Genelec 8361As for L/C/R?

I considered them, but I think they're a bit too large and they're also heavier than I wanted to deal with. They would not be able to be mounted using the adapters and stands I've chosen, for example. This system has plenty of output for a ~2.5m listening distance, especially since I upmix everything with Auro3D so the center helps even stereo material. Of course I want W371As one day, but probably not in this room...

11. Why no W371As?

I accept donations. :)
What is the RT60?
 
OP
Sancus

Sancus

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What is the RT60?
Here ya go. Pretty much all the decay/time graphs show the same thing, some issues 100-300hz and then generally higher-than-optimal decay times for the rest.
index.php


There is some good further discussion about room treatment in this thread. I was thinking 1 24x48x4" absorbers behind each of the L/R, ~3 of those along the "fireplace"(it's electric, not a real one), and 2 behind the sofa. Maybe a couple of bass traps in the left corner by the window. I am wary of adding too much and I don't want to make the room look terrible so there's that constraint as well. I'm not sure how much effect that will have either.
 

sarumbear

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Here ya go. Pretty much all the decay/time graphs show the same thing, some issues 100-300hz and then generally higher-than-optimal decay times for the rest.
index.php


There is some good further discussion about room treatment in this thread. I was thinking 1 24x48x4" absorbers behind each of the L/R, ~3 of those along the "fireplace"(it's electric, not a real one), and 2 behind the sofa. Maybe a couple of bass traps in the left corner by the window. I am wary of adding too much and I don't want to make the room look terrible so there's that constraint as well. I'm not sure how much effect that will have either.
Thank you. Pretty live room for a listening music. You may want to use medium density curtains hung about a foot away from the windows. That should reduce the RT60 and equalise the large differences.
 
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Sancus

Sancus

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Thank you. Pretty live room for a listening music. You may want to use medium density curtains hung about a foot away from the windows. That should reduce the RT60 and equalise the large differences.
Unfortunately this is a rental and so modifying the window coverings is out. Otherwise I would have changed them all and also paid to ceiling mount the heights instead of using stands.

So I can add floor standing absorbers and traps, and stack them, but that's pretty much it.
 

sarumbear

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Unfortunately this is a rental and so modifying the window coverings is out. Otherwise I would have changed them all and also paid to ceiling mount the heights instead of using stands.

So I can add floor standing absorbers and traps, and stack them, but that's pretty much it.
Very few traps work up to 300Hz. Absorbers mostly work above 1000Hz. You will risk creating an odd sounding room. You are better of with a live room. If you listen at low volume you should be OK.
 

sarumbear

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Reverb is cumulative. If the volume is high your reverb times will be longer. If you listen at low volumes there is not enough energy to excite the room.
 

abdo123

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Reverb is cumulative. If the volume is high your reverb times will be longer. If you listen at low volumes there is not enough energy to excite room.
This is completely incorrect. Reflections are always as loud as the direct sound, why would reverb times increase or decrease?
 

sarumbear

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abdo123

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the only thing that can change decay time is the absorption factor of the room and the directivity of the speaker.

When you increase the volume of the direct sound the reflections increase by an equal amount so the decay time remains the same.
 

sarumbear

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the only thing that can change decay time is the absorption factor of the room and the directivity of the speaker.

When you increase the volume of the direct sound the reflections increase by an equal amount so the decay time remains the same.
Have I said RT60 to change? Re-read what I said please. Reverb time is related to but not RT60. You may also want to read my credentials.
 
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