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Subwoofer Comparison

WinWiz

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Hsu is kind of expensive in EU.
I already got the 10" monolith. But 20hz sounds awful -more noise than music. The noise disappear when I plug the port so that is how I run it. But I do wonder if it's defective....
Compared with my 15 years old dynaudio sub the monolith measured thd is quite high. I was hoping 15 years competition and development could make a new 600€ sub competitive with my old 1000€ sub....
2 sealed subs does provide a better (more even) bass around my largish room and that was my goal.
But I can't stop wondering if so much noise at 20hz is normal?
 

Sancus

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Compared with my 15 years old dynaudio sub the monolith measured thd is quite high. I was hoping 15 years competition and development could make a new 600€ sub competitive with my old 1000€ sub....
Dynaudio 500 doesn't play anywhere near as loud at 20hz as a ported Monoprice M-10.

If a monoprice M-10 sounds bad to you either a) You're overdriving it and you didn't notice with the sealed sub because it compresses far earlier without making any bad noises or b) it's broken.

That said, nothing wrong with running it sealed. You lose like 6dB of output below 40hz but it's not the end of the world.
 

staticV3

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@sweetchaos please consider changing the metric unit of cabinet volume in your spreadsheet from m³ to dm³ or L (1dm³=1L). Preferably to L.
The formula is H[cm] * W[cm] * D[cm] / 1000 = Volume[L]
 

biniek

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Hi
What studio subwoofer would you recommend for Avantone Gauss 7 studio monitors?
Im considering Fluid Audio FC10S but maybe there's other better options in 500$ budget?
Sub that im looking for should have high pass filter on 80hz for crossing it with monitors without additional interface such as mini dsp etc
 

Bassman999

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I cant afford the subs I liked and so I have always built my own.
Building high-end mains was an issue (sounding as good as mainstream) But I am trying to anyway.
Most of us have no time or desire to do this ands I understand that.
Plus resale value when you want to downgrade/upgrade or just plain want a different look isn't nearly as good with even the best looking and preforming "No Name" diy offerings.
But I do love some of my subs and even some of my mains.

I never realized there were so many brands till I saw this list!!
 

JR449

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No specific thread for @hardisj measurements of Monolith 13 THX posted yesterday. The 15 model shouldn`t have more output than the new 13 THX model shown in the comparison graph with the 12 model. James Larsen measurements which are always in line with manufacturers shows the opposite, Monolith actually uses them for the 13 THX model in their site. Erin had some wrong setting in past and he argued they were correct even if we already knew they were not possible then later he admitted they were wrong. Again we see some oddities in the measurements. Why he doesn´t bother checking by the company before putting these out as Monoprice site data supports Audioholics measurements more? Erin shows the 2M peak SPL as he should rather show RMS like most sites do. Peak is 3db higher than RMS.


https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/subwoofer_testing/monolith_13_thx_ultra/


Our measurements have been referenced to 2-meter RMS, which is 9 dB down from the standard requirement for the measurements to be shown at 1-meter peak. However most publicly available CEA-2010 measurements are shown at 2-meter RMS, so we followed that convention.

image
image
 
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My 12" monolith thx sounds great and integrates well, cut off at 40hz, speakers full band.
1 bass reflex port closed, 1 open.
price 799 € at monoprice
 

hardisj

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The 15 model shouldn`t have more output than the new 13 THX model shown in the comparison graph with the 12 model. James Larsen measurements which are always in line with manufacturers shows the opposite, Monolith actually uses them for the 13 THX model in their site. Erin had some wrong setting in past and he argued they were correct even if we already knew they were not possible then later he admitted they were wrong. Again we see some oddities in the measurements. Why he doesn´t bother checking by the company before putting these out as Monoprice site data supports Audioholics measurements more?

My results with the SVS were indeed out of whack. That was just the LF where I had copy/pasted a template that had an old microphone sensitivity spec. I didn't realize it until months later. I made the statement that I'd messed up. The mic sensitivity is 36.7mv/Pa as it should be per the calibration sheet I was given by Earthworks. Previously I had used 43.3mv/Pa for the 12-25Hz region which was left over from an old template and I didn't catch that one. Totally my fault. 100% facepalm screw up. I took the data off my sheet and set the video to private.

In this round, I made sure to quadruple check my settings.

The main differences in our testing was temp/humidity. James tested the 13-inch in 45F, while I tested in 70F. James tested the 15-inch in 68F while I tested in 65F. IOW, I try to test at the same temperature every time.

Interestingly, at least to me, is on the 15-inch where James and I tested at nearly the exact same outside temperature, our results line up nearly exactly the same. Could this then be a factor and should we not compare results when tests aren't done at the same temperature?... I think it's reasonable to ask but without further testing at varying temps then I can't say it makes comparisons invalid. We saw the hub-bub that occurred when Amir tested one of those Neumann speakers in his cold garage. That was a big ol' ordeal.

You're free to not believe my results. I understand if you don't. I messed up and now the trust is gone. Fair. Luckily, you have James' to hang on to if you wish (who I even reference in my review).
 
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Willem

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Subwoofer availability and prices vary considerably between markets/continents. Therefore, what may be a good recommendation for one market may be overpriced in another, or not even available at all. Here in Europe the Kef Kube series are an economical recommendation, and they measure rather well.
 

cavedriver

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Any reports of the group delay on the RSL (Rogers Sound Lab) Speedwoofer 10S (either the recently discontinued version or the new MKII version)??

Also, the Ascendo stuff is fascinating, but I see there is no data on their subs by north American reviewers covered in this thread. Is there ANY data on these units, particularly around the group delays of their larger SMSG sealed subwoofers?

Edit: I see that Ascendo includes their own Klippel CEA-2010 test data on their website for at least some of their units, and that this data includes distortion measurements if you download the files, but it does not include group delay data. This is disappointing for a pro audio company that stresses the importance of group delay for music and movie soundtrack reproduction.

Edit: Also curious that RSL markets a subwoofer as the "Speedwoofer", does not publish group delay data (or even mention it) and then builds it as a ported sub.
 
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MarcosCh

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Sorry if this is a very stupid question. Is it possible or recommend to use two subs that are different?
If possible, what are the limitations? I would imagine you don't want to use an asimetric pair with one for each channel playing the same frequency range? Or doesn't matter at all? Or depends on the xover frequency??
Thanks for any insight!
 

Galz

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Sorry if this is a very stupid question. Is it possible or recommend to use two subs that are different?
If possible, what are the limitations? I would imagine you don't want to use an asimetric pair with one for each channel playing the same frequency range? Or doesn't matter at all? Or depends on the xover frequency??
Thanks for any insight!

From my understanding:
You want to phase match them as much as possible so that they don't cancel each other out. If they are not identical, then you could have some frequencies out of phase, and not be able to fix it without causing other frequencies to go out of phase. With identical subwoofers, the only phase issues will be due to your room, which you should have a better chance to be able to deal with using a simple delay.
 

delta76

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In Europe, for less than 1000€, what would be the best option for subwoofer? The safe choice would be of course svs pb1000 pro or sb2000 pro, but I wonder if I could get more bang for the buck
 

FrantzM

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From my understanding:
You want to phase match them as much as possible so that they don't cancel each other out. If they are not identical, then you could have some frequencies out of phase, and not be able to fix it without causing other frequencies to go out of phase. With identical subwoofers, the only phase issues will be due to your room, which you should have a better chance to be able to deal with using a simple delay.
Doesn't work that way... For starters you can use vastly different subwoofers. If you were to use MSO, you would see that the phase between the subwoofers can be dramatically different. There are scientific reasons for that, we will not go too deep in these. Suffice to say that our hearing in the low frequencies work in what is called quasi-steady state. A smooth response is what is needed and strangely difference in levels and phase is what accomplishes it best... before overall EQ.

Some reading and watching:
Mehlau Multi Subs
Watch this
Earl Geddes on Multisubs

This method takes a while and, MSO a free, powerful software you can download HERE (click here) is not easy. Geddes as matter of fact is not too keen on it, but Geddes himself has never given a clear explanation on how to achieve the best integration of multiple subs .. I use MSO , still learning, and am extremely pleased. You will of course need a box to integrate the subwoofers and a measuring microphone: Many here, use the miniDSP 2x4 and miniDSP Umik-1. Integrating multiple subwoofers, is not easy but the results, even with inexpensive subwoofers, are to be heard to be believed...

Peace.
 
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MarcosCh

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Ok, seems that there is a lot for me to learn, but that was the intention of my question, to have an initial direction. Thanks for this.

I will be using an umik-1 and minidsp ddrc24 (only for dirac) > 2 channels > usb > raspberry with camilladsp (for xovers and gains and initial adjustments with rew)> 4 channel dac

Will have a look at MSO but i must admit that i am not sure i will get too far if you say it isn't easy....
 

tvih

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In Europe, for less than 1000€, what would be the best option for subwoofer? The safe choice would be of course svs pb1000 pro or sb2000 pro, but I wonder if I could get more bang for the buck
I was actually just wondering the same thing yesterday. Since I put off any likely electronics upgrades at least for now, I came to think about my subwoofer situation - and figured it could quite possibly be the bigger upgrade, even though it'd still take place next year at the earliest. But as usual it's definitely hard to judge options. My current subwoofer is a sealed 10" OR-DSW10, which was somewhere between 400-500€ in 2008-2009 when I bought it. But it's hard to judge how much something like a SB-1000 Pro would improve things. Not like it'd be "high end" either, given it's about the same cost in the US now as the DSW10 was here back then (it's made by a domestic company, uses a Peerless SLS driver I think). Here the SB-1000 Pro costs 829€ though, so definitely a big premium over the US. Given my listening volumes and not so big room it should be loud enough at 20 Hz... even my current one seems to be especially after EQ is all said and done. Even if the SPL/distortion measurements account for "punch", "agility", "resolution" and whatever other fancy words you might use about a subwoofer, it doesn't really help with comparing to the current one much since no such measurements exist of it.

And if in fact the measurements do account for all that, it seems like the Klipsch R-115SW would do basically just as well as the SB-1000/2000 Pro, or PB-1000 Pro, while being much cheaper at 679€. Downside being the size, of course.
 

Willem

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You can have only two out of these three: price, size, performance. That said, the best way to spend your budget would be to get at least a second sub, and combine it with what you have: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/05/musings-measurements-subwoofers-to.html As to what to buy in Europe, my personal favourite would be the KEF Kube12b. Even the smaller Kube 10b already outperforms the SB1000 with a flatter response (see here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...fyBjaxK69dkXte6ZL6anVTW2_M/edit#gid=834598950), and the Kube 12b should do so even more, and for less (SVS are expensive in Europe). Here in the Netherlands, the Kube12b sells for 600 euros. So you get a lot of bang for the buck, and in a stylish package. The only downside is that it is relatively large but that is inevitable if you want excellent performance for a low price. If you are more ambitious and willing to spend more, there are also the Arendal subs to look into.
So my advice would be to get as many (smaller) subs as you can afford and find a place for, and use dsp processing such as MSO.
 

dualazmak

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Hello friends,

I always enjoy reading this thread and I have been getting various useful information on subwoofers (as well as on low Fq sound of woofers) on this thread.

As for the speed and/or tightness of the subwoofer sound, I believe we should have more focus and attention on time alignment between subwoofer and woofer, since our subwoofer is always used together with woofers having considerable overlap of the sound Fq between them based on passive or active, digital or analog, XO configuration depending on the slope(s) of the low-pass (high-cut) filter for subwoofer and high-pass (low-cut) filter for woofer.

I recently found (I assume it would be already common for some of you here) that Adobe Audition's sound color spectrum analysis (time/Fq/amplitude 3D representation) is much useful and helpful in objectively observing the "tightness" of the low Fq sound given by subwoofer and woofer, independently as well as together.

Let me share here just two typical diagrams as examples of such objective measurements of subwoofer and woofer transient behaviors by 8-wave and single-wave 31.5 Hz and 63 Hz sine wave stimulation.

Excitation with 8-wave 31.5 Hz, 63 Hz tone bursts;
WS003153 (1).JPG


Excitation with 63 Hz single-wave pulse;
WS003329 (2).JPG

Here you may easily understand the importance of time alignment between subwoofer and woofer; of course, the transient characteristics of low Fq sound is also greatly depending on the room acoustics, though.

If you would be interested in my recent objective measurements of SP time alignments as well as SP transient characteristics, please visit my posts on my project thread;

- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-1_ Precision pulse wave matching method: #493
- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-2_ Energy peak matching method: #494
- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-3_ Precision single sine wave matching method in 0.1 msec accuracy: #504, #507
- Measurement of transient characteristics of Yamaha 30 cm woofer JA-3058 in sealed cabinet and Yamaha active sub-woofer YST-SW1000: #495, #497, #503, #507
- Perfect (0.1 msec precision) time alignment of all the SP drivers greatly contributes to amazing disappearance of SPs, tightness and cleanliness of the sound, and superior 3D sound stage: #520
 
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tvih

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You can have only two out of these three: price, size, performance. That said, the best way to spend your budget would be to get at least a second sub, and combine it with what you have: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/05/musings-measurements-subwoofers-to.html As to what to buy in Europe, my personal favourite would be the KEF Kube12b. Even the smaller Kube 10b already outperforms the SB1000 with a flatter response (see here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...fyBjaxK69dkXte6ZL6anVTW2_M/edit#gid=834598950), and the Kube 12b should do so even more, and for less (SVS are expensive in Europe). Here in the Netherlands, the Kube12b sells for 600 euros. So you get a lot of bang for the buck, and in a stylish package. The only downside is that it is relatively large but that is inevitable if you want excellent performance for a low price. If you are more ambitious and willing to spend more, there are also the Arendal subs to look into.
So my advice would be to get as many (smaller) subs as you can afford and find a place for, and use dsp processing such as MSO.
In my case addition vs replacement is still a consideration, but since I only need to cover one position one subwoofer already gets the job done pretty well:

C1+Sub-miniDSP-2x4HD-EQ.jpg

I think I slightly tweaked the balance after this but didn't save the measurement. Regardless, in the sub range the only bigger null is the 90 Hz one, and quite narrow (with "psychoacoustic" smoothing it's basically smooth, while this is "var" smoothing).

But I reckon any potential improvements to the fancy word salad characteristics wouldn't really materialize so well if one of two subs was still "muddy"? Buying two new ones on the other hand is almost certainly too much money.

As for the KEFs, the two models you mentioned are 800 and 900€ respectively here (Finland) unfortunately, and I'd prefer domestic. So much easier for warranty, payment options etc.

The size of the R-115SW I mentioned would mainly mean I most likely couldn't have it where my current one is at the "front". It'd likely have to be placed between my listening position and the left surround speaker, but without trying I've no idea what the response would be like from that position. If I spotted a sale price-wise two might be possible at least if adding the second one later, but placing the second one would be problematic. Still, sticking with one would seem to make sense financially if the overall response doesn't get worse from what it is now. Regardless, I guess I gotta try running some sub-specific listening tests and further measurements first to see if the current one needs replacing to begin with.
 
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