Is Nad c399 ok for subwoofer integration?

[valcon]

Dear ASR community, I'm a new member. Most of the time I listen to music from Qobuz, with my integrated streaming amplifier Yamaha R-N803D, feeding a pair of Kef LS50 Meta and the active subwoofer Kef KC62. I've been thinking of upgrading to Nad c399, but I'm not fully convinced and I shall explain why.

I consider the subwoofer integration of the Yamaha its main strength: the Ypao calibration automatically detects the distance of the listening point from both speakers and from the subwoofer, adjusting the phase and delay accordingly. The result is very good in my opinion. On the other hand I'm not happy with how Ypao as a room correction software. For this reason I always switch its automatic equalisation off.

Nad c399 has lots of strengths in comparison, many of which I read in previous threads on this forum. Still, I'm a bit skeptical about its bass management. As far as I understand, the Bluos module only enables you to set the crossover. Then Dirac Live calibration is not able to discriminate between speakers and subwoofer. It does its room compensation as if there were two full range speakers. Is it correct? Doesn't this determine a suboptimal integration of the subwoofer not providing for a proper phase and time alignment? As far as bass management goes, doesn't the Nad represent a downgrade from the Yamaha? I'm aware that almost every other aspect is better implemented on the Nad than on the Yamaha, and that Dirac is way better than Ypao. Here I'm only asking about bass management.

Thank you for reading and helping me sorting out this matter.

 

[Dako]

I've the NAD M33 so it should be same. The M33 recognise my subwoofer as its on channel and are setting separate room correction and impulse to time align the speaker to the subwoofer. There is no phase alignment tough. Im satisfied with the sound and the measurement is objectively good. I had the Lyngdorf 1120 earlier and like its DSP better because you could fine adjust much better.

 

[valcon]

Thank you for sharing your experience. That was really helpful.

Yes, I too believe the c399 should behave as the M33. Has it always worked like that or has something changed after some update? If I don't go wrong, when Dirac released Bass Control, allegedly the Stereo version of Dirac live was given the ability to do the bass management for one sub.

You don't regret moving from Lyngdorf to M33, do you?

 

[tc2007]

I cannot imagine Dirac live not properly applying corrections to the low end, and also not separately identifying the subwoofer. When I had Dirac enabled products, I would always see my sub as a separately identified speaker. Dirac does come with different licensed products and I am not sure which one comes with C399. I think it's best to contact Dirac or NAD product support regarding bass management. I am almost sure, your concerns are already cleared in C399 but best to check with them before pulling the trigger.

 

[valcon]

I cannot imagine Dirac live not properly applying corrections to the low end, and also not separately identifying the subwoofer. When I had Dirac enabled products, I would always see my sub as a separately identified speaker. Dirac does come with different licensed products and I am not sure which one comes with C399. I think it's best to contact Dirac or NAD product support regarding bass management. I am almost sure, your concerns are already cleared in C399 but best to check with them before pulling the trigger.

Thank you for your kind reply. I will contact NAD and Dirac, hoping they might help me clarify my thoughts. The reason I was doubtful is that, if C399 had a proper bass management, I could not figure out what the advantage of Dirac Live Bass Control over Dirac Live Stereo (the one on C399) might be in a 2.1 scenario. For sure DLBC is superior when it comes to multiple subs, but does this hold true for a just-one-sub setup?

 

[Willem]

If you are after better bass, I would suggest you consider getting a second sub and use Multi Sub Optimizer and a miniDSP 2x4HD for sub equalization. I doubt there is anything better. The biggest advantage of this approach would be that you optimize the response over a rather larger listening area. A second sub will also give you more low end power.

 

[Baund007]

Reading this thread I have a bass management question. I have a C399 and I'm baffled. I am enabling 1 sub via BluOS or front panel. Setting the crossover to 40 or 50. Why is bass management also crossing the full signal to the speakers? I get the concept but when you have full-range speakers I want 100% of the signal to go there when also have full range to sub and let that crossover handle. You can hear a huge difference pushing the cross up 80+. The speaker's frequency is just getting neutered. Moved the sub to Pre Out and disabled sub on the front panel. The speaker & sub has normal output. However, when I go back into bass management, enable 1 sub, and push crossover up again it does the same to the speakers, as expected, but also kills the sub through the pre-out. So it appears there is no way to disable bass management. Why would you design something like that? Any insight would be helpful.

 

[DVDdoug]

I get the concept but when you have full-range speakers I want 100% of the signal to go there when also have full range to sub and let that crossover handle.

Normally a crossover splits the frequencies and the drivers only overlap around the crossover point and the lowest frequencies don't go to your main speakers.

If you have a 2-way speaker (or 3-way) speaker it has a crossover inside and if you add a separate woofer/subwoofer with the appropriate additional crossover you now have a 3-way (or-way) system, etc.

Most active subs have a low-pass filter (half of a crossover). Some have line-level pass-through with high pass for your main amplifier/speakers.

Bass management is a crossover, plus it allows mixing of the regular bass and the "point one" LFE channel for the sub. If you have an AVR you can set it for full-range speakers and then crossover is not used. The normal stereo (and surround channel) bass goes only to the regular speakers and only the LFE goes to the sub (there is no crossover).

The stereo downmix doesn't include the LFE, and I assume the NAD can't decode surround sound so it probably can't decode the LFE.

 

[nygafre]

Reading this thread I have a bass management question. I have a C399 and I'm baffled. I am enabling 1 sub via BluOS or front panel. Setting the crossover to 40 or 50. Why is bass management also crossing the full signal to the speakers? I get the concept but when you have full-range speakers I want 100% of the signal to go there when also have full range to sub and let that crossover handle. You can hear a huge difference pushing the cross up 80+. The speaker's frequency is just getting neutered. Moved the sub to Pre Out and disabled sub on the front panel. The speaker & sub has normal output. However, when I go back into bass management, enable 1 sub, and push crossover up again it does the same to the speakers, as expected, but also kills the sub through the pre-out. So it appears there is no way to disable bass management. Why would you design something like that? Any insight would be helpful.

Not sure if I’m answering your question, but if the bass management/sub out works the same way as on my Powernode, you can always leave the subwoofer toggled OFF, which will still send a fixed 80Hz lowpass to your sub out, and the full signal to the speakers.

 

[Baund007]

Not sure if I’m answering your question, but if the bass management/sub out works the same way as on my Powernode, you can always leave the subwoofer toggled OFF, which will still send a fixed 80Hz lowpass to your sub out, and the full signal to the speakers.

Thanks everyone for all the input. I had to move the sub-output to Pre-Out to get a full signal to the speakers. I know my desire is not like most. But having 3 sets of full range 3-way speakers and want a full signal, let me set my room. I was hoping the NAD would allow me to do or allow me to disable bass management. I will be selling and looking for something else. FYI, if bass management is something you want the C399 does it well. The lowest setting is 40. If you want full control 20-20 I recommend getting something else.

 

[nygafre]

Thanks everyone for all the input. I had to move the sub-output to Pre-Out to get a full signal to the speakers. I know my desire is not like most. But having 3 sets of full range 3-way speakers and want a full signal, let me set my room. I was hoping the NAD would allow me to do or allow me to disable bass management. I will be selling and looking for something else. FYI, if bass management is something you want the C399 does it well. The lowest setting is 40. If you want full control 20-20 I recommend getting something else.

Well, bass management is disabled when you leave sub toggled OFF.. then you get full signal to speakers and an automatic 80Hz low pass signal to the sub out. Did you try this?

 

[Baund007]

toggled OFF.. then you get full signal to speakers and an automatic 80Hz low pass signal to the sub out. Did you try this?

Just did! With Sub off, through the amp setup, there is no automatic 80 pass signal. Tested enabling Amp via BlueSound console, nothing. I have run through as many different types of setups and combinations. I will continue to enjoy, for now, using Pre-out to sub and using sub crossover. I will just be looking for something new. Probably going down the Luxman line and paring with digital streamer. That combo fits my budget and gets me into top-tier integrated.

 

[Wavez]

I'm also considering a c399 and confused about the confusingly named different levels of Dirac available and their implementation on the device.
Right now I have one sub, but considering adding a second at some point.

1. So it's unlikely that the c399 will ever get "Dirac Bass Control" correct? (side note, I see they charge $349 for that software on devices that currently support it, ouch)
2. "Dirac Stereo" gives you eq correction and phase alignment over one sub only, correct?
3. If I add a second sub to a "Dirac Stereo" system, what happens? It treats both subs as one? Wouldn't the phase correction be useless in this case?
4. I also want to confirm that with the BluOS module installed, you can manually change the subwoofer output crossover to any frequency with the bluesound app? I'd prefer it lower than the stock 80hz. (it's a little annoying you can only do this through the bluesound app. Will this app even be around in 10-20 years?)

 

[pogo]

This will soon also be possible with the C399, but with a maximum of 2 subs:

 

[Wavez]

Can someone translate a summary?

 

[Timcognito]

FYI

Thoughts on YPAO for hifi?

Curious what folks think about Yamahas approach to room correction for hifi, ie, 2 channel stereo listening. See link below for their explanation, but basically the approach is to match the frequency response of both speakers by EQing down the speaker with the higher sound level at any given...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[valcon]

I'm also considering a c399 and confused about the confusingly named different levels of Dirac available and their implementation on the device.
Right now I have one sub, but considering adding a second at some point.

1. So it's unlikely that the c399 will ever get "Dirac Bass Control" correct? (side note, I see they charge $349 for that software on devices that currently support it, ouch)
2. "Dirac Stereo" gives you eq correction and phase alignment over one sub only, correct?
3. If I add a second sub to a "Dirac Stereo" system, what happens? It treats both subs as one? Wouldn't the phase correction be useless in this case?
4. I also want to confirm that with the BluOS module installed, you can manually change the subwoofer output crossover to any frequency with the bluesound app? I'd prefer it lower than the stock 80hz. (it's a little annoying you can only do this through the bluesound app. Will this app even be around in 10-20 years?)

You might want to know what NAD answered to my direct question. They have been clear and informative, but confirmed our suspicion.

My question was: "[...] As far as I understand, the c399, although it has two subwoofer outputs, is not able to independently set the phase, delay and time alignment of two subs. Dirac would just produce the best frequency response but won't affect the above mentioned parameters. Am I correct? Is the m10v2 any different in this regard? Unfortunately the m66 + m23 combo is out of my budget. An option I might consider is a miniDSP dac preamp + c298. Or had I better wait for future more affordable amplifiers compatible with Dirac Live Bass Control?"

Their answer has been: " Yes that is correct The C399 can not do independent subwoofer management. In regard to the subwoofer output, the M10V2 is the same as the C399. We in the support crew are not familiar with timelines for new product release. I do know that if you have the flexibility subwoofer positioning can do wonders. Also just having two subwoofers even with out independent control can improve bass delivery into the room."

 

[pogo]

I would be surprised if this did not work in conjunction with the MDC2 module