Genelec Subs for 8340 and 8330 in Mch. Dual 7360 or single 7370

[Sprint]

Hi Everyone,

I am currently running a 5.2 set up with Genelec 8340 as LCR, 8330 as Surrounds with a pair of SVS SB-12NSD (12inch) subs. I am using Yamaha CX-A5200 as processor. Yamaha does the bass management with crossover set for 85HZ for the monitors. Source is Apple TV for apple music, youtube music videos, netflix, disney, prime. Sometimes, use a Panasonic bluray.

The Genelec monitors are corrected by GLM whereas the subs are corrected by Minidsp 2x4HD i.e.DDRC24 with DIRAC. Measurements are also attached. I had sent the measurements to Genelec a few years back and as per Genelec rep, they look good with no dips or notches (seems curtains are helping). Here is the link to my room photos

https://imgur.com/a/TaaZzir

. I normally pull down the curtain when listening and reverb is not much. As you can see one sub is in the corner and the other in the middle of the room. No other room treatment done as of today but may get some professionally partially treated after some years.

The listening area is 4x5 mts whereas the whole room including the dining area is 7x5mts. I sit at a distance of 3,7 meters.

One of the reasons to go for Genelec subs is to have a proper subwoofer speaker integration (hence prefer over Arendal or SVS). As I learnt from many, a 10 inch Genelec 7360 sub will beat a 12 inch non-Genelec sub due to better integration via advanced GLM correction and subwoofer design.

I do not listen to stereo. I listen to both apple music and youtube music videos via multichannel. Most of my music is bass heavy like EDM. I use the Dolby Surround DSP with Surround Decode which upmixes 2 ch music to multichannel. Atmos is switched off in Apple TV for both netflix and Apple music as I do not have ceiling speakers.

Since I did not like much stereo set up with SVS, I always preferred multichannel. I am hoping that with Genelec sub and integrated with GLM, this may change and I may shift to 2ch for music.


I now need to decide between a pair of 7360 and 7370. Due to budget, I cannot currently go for a dual 7370 but can upgrade after some years. Also, family will be happy with a smaller size sub than a larger 7370.



Looking at my room, which is a better option - a pair of 7360 or a single 7370? Has anyone moved from dual 7360 to 7370 or vice versa in your set up?



Dual 7360:

Pros:

• Will provide uniform bass for the entire couch.
• Smaller in size
• No localization

Cons:

• 1000 Euro more expensive. Can use this money for a RME DAC or 9320 for my headphone and digital stereo (incase I shift back to 2ch stereo in the future).
• Less powerful to 7370
• Same LFE signal passed to the second subwoofer. No optimization by summation for multiple subs even in GLM 5 (except FR, level and phase correction)
• Not following Genelec recommendation for multichannel. Genelec recommds dual subs for connecting to one sub to each L/R speaker and getting bass managed with default 85HZ crossover.

7370:

Pros:

• Follows Genelec recommedation for multichannel with one large 7370 sub.
• More powerful

Cons:

• Not sure if a dual sub is better for my room
• Size
• Localized.

Additional Questions:

• Should I do bass management for 7360 or 7370? If yes, should I route the low frequency to subs only for LCR speakers and not the surrounds? I felt sometimes even the surrond channels may have some low end.
• Yamaha CX-A5200 has two subwoofer outputs. If dual 7360 is recommended, how should I connect? One cable from one subwoofer output to Left Subwoofer LFE In and the other to right Subwoofer LFE In. Or should it be connecting just one output to one subwoofer LFE In and daisy chaing to the second subwoofer? Ofcourse, I will define monitors to full range in Yamaha.

Highly Appreciate your input!

 

[sweetchaos]

Have you seen my ‘subwoofer comparison’ spreadsheet?

You can calculate your room size, and see what subwoofer is capable of outputting enough SPL for that given rating.

That’s not specific to Genelec, but you can see what subs in general, are recommended.

You can extrapolate to the Genelec subs afterwards.

I’m pretty sure Genelec subs have aweful price/performance ratio.

 

[rynberg]

Additional Questions:

• Should I do bass management for 7360 or 7370? If yes, should I route the low frequency to subs only for LCR speakers and not the surrounds? I felt sometimes even the surrond channels may have some low end.
• Yamaha CX-A5200 has two subwoofer outputs. If dual 7360 is recommended, how should I connect? One cable from one subwoofer output to Left Subwoofer LFE In and the other to right Subwoofer LFE In. Or should it be connecting just one output to one subwoofer LFE In and daisy chaing to the second subwoofer? Ofcourse, I will define monitors to full range in Yamaha.

Why on earth would you run the 5 monitors as full range? The whole point of using a subwoofer is to offload bass from the main channels. You are seriously limiting your system output dramatically by doing this...run the monitors as small.

 

[Sprint]

Why on earth would you run the 5 monitors as full range? The whole point of using a subwoofer is to offload bass from the main channels. You are seriously limiting your system output dramatically by doing this...run the monitors as small.

I will not be running full range. I will set it as Full range in Yamaha but the GLM software will do bass management by splitting it into LF and HF at the crossover frequency. The LF (<85Hz) will be routed to the subwoofers

 

[Sprint]

Have you seen my ‘subwoofer comparison’ spreadsheet?

You can calculate your room size, and see what subwoofer is capable of outputting enough SPL for that given rating.

That’s not specific to Genelec, but you can see what subs in general, are recommended.

You can extrapolate to the Genelec subs afterwards.

I’m pretty sure Genelec subs have aweful price/performance ratio.

Yes, it is very impressive for the amount of work and details that you have collected for us. Since I live in EU, most of the US subwoofers like Rhythmik, HSU, JTR are out. I am not interested in SVS anymore because the amps in both of my subs got damaged even though I don't listen at high volumes.

I agree, Genelec has a lower price/performance ratio when compared to Subwoofers from US and probably also compared to Arendal.

I selected based on CEA-2010 data values, bassholic rank small/medium at least for my room volume of 2944 ft3 or 84m3. Only data for Arendals, Monolith from BK Electronics, ELAC, Genelec (7060B, 7070A only) are available. I am also assuming that 7360 and 7370 will have better performance than 7060/70.

Based on Excel, at 20HZ: following are the measurements in db.

Genelec 7060 - 93,5
Genelec 7070 - 100,6
Arendal 1723 1S - 98,9
Arendal 1723 2S - 102,6
Arendal 1723 1V - 104,7
Arendal 1723 2V - 110,3
Monolith DF - 102
Elac SUB3070 - 95,8
QAcoustics QB12 - 98
Siegberg Audio 10D - 96,5
XTZ Sub1X12 - 99,6
SVS SB-12NSD - 94,9 (very close to Genelec 7060)

My budget is around 4000 €.

I really like the Arendal 1723 subs. A pair of 1S will cost 3300 €, 2S 4800€, 1V 4000 € and 2V 6000 €. A pair of Genelec 7360 will cost 4000 € and 1 Genelec 7380 will cost 3000 €.

Monolith Plus 12" ported from BK Electronics UK is attractive as well 1740 € for a pair.
ELAC Sub3070 12" costs 5000 € for a pair.
QAcoustics QB12 costs 1200 € a pair.
Siegberg Audio 10D costs 5400 € a pair
XTZ Sub1X12 costs 2000 € a pair but out of stock.

I agree, Genelec has a lower price/performance ratio when compared to Subwoofers from US and probably also compared to Arendal (close to 5db+ with 1S). Monolith and QAcoustics are dead cheap and especially from db monolith DF is attractive. However the boxes look equally ugly Vs genelecs . Moreover, if it is a non GLM sub, I can still stick with my SVS for few more years until the amps fail again .

The performance of SVS 12-nsd based on CEA-2010 will be closer to 7360. So, atleast I will get the same performance of what I am used to with SVS. Considering room integration of Genelec with GLM both analog and digital, I am tending hence towards Genelec vs Arendal. Especially for me level matching was a challenge with my current SVS/Dirac Set up.

I do not need extreme high SPL as it is not dedicated room. Decent SPL with quality correction is what I am looking I am looking for.

The question here is dual 7360 or one 7370

 

[mkt]

This seems to lean toward multiple subs as a way of improving in-room frequency response

https://support.genelec.com/hc/en-us/articles/5783732198418-What-are-the-benefits-of-having-one-or-multiple-subwoofers

Might be visually appealing too. Bass management for the surrounds seems sensible.
EDIT this shows that multiple subs are handled a little better (right level when they have the same channels) in GLM now subwoofer ids

 

[flysouth]

always go dual subs increases output of each and it makes your room modes less

 

[Sprint]

This seems to lean toward multiple subs as a way of improving in-room frequency response

https://support.genelec.com/hc/en-us/articles/5783732198418-What-are-the-benefits-of-having-one-or-multiple-subwoofers

Might be visually appealing too. Bass management for the surrounds seems sensible.
EDIT this shows that multiple subs are handled a little better (right level when they have the same channels) in GLM now subwoofer ids

Thank you for the link and the video! This helps a lot! How are you connecting the monitors to subs? Are you handling the subwoofer as stereo pair. Means, the signal for L,C and SL is sent to Subwoofer 1 and the signal for R and SR to be sent to Subwoofer 2. Or do you have only one 7360A.

As per the video, if we put all subs in one subgroup id, GLM will truncate by 6db. I am still a bit lost..should I send all channels from my AVR to one subwoofer along with LFE and then take the subwoofer out + LFE out to the second subwoofer. In this case, I assume it is all under one subgroup id.

BTW, have you compared your 7360 to any non-GLM subs like SVS or another? How does it compare?

I listened to the bigger 7370 and 7380 in Boston. Was excellent.

One more question: how are you feeding Okto Dac8 Pro? HTPC? and how do you feed in LFE into Genelecs?

 

[mkt]

I have one 7630. If I had two I might think about splitting the bass managed channels between them. Maybe C to one and LFE to the other, and then splitting the remaining right and left channels. If you ever added a layer of heights, the additional inputs of two subwoofers would be nice to have (the 7360 has 7 inputs + LFE and I think the 7330 has the same number). I don't have enough subwoofer inputs to bass mange the heights. Sub integration with GLM is quick and simple. I have not experimented much with different cut-off frequencies. I use the default 85 Hz. I have not tried other subs.

"When daisy-chaining multiple subwoofers with analogue signals, run a cable from the Link Out connector to the next subwoofer’s Link In connector. When using the LFE
signal, also run a cable from the LFE Out to the next subwoofer’s LFE In." 7360 manual

I don't have an AVR. All audio sources are on a Mac (Apple Music/TV for atmos, Roon for 5.1 music, VOX for a few 5.1.4 and 7.1.4 files, Dolby Reference Player for some bluray atmos, VLC for video w/ 5.1). I have the Okto Dac8 Pro and a Focusrite 4i4 configured as a 12-channel aggregate device (very easy on Mac). One of the Okto Dac8 Pro outputs is the LFE.

Genelec is pretty good about answering questions quickly and not up-selling. I like what I have but I'm no expert on anything

 

[Sprint]

I have one 7630. If I had two I might think about splitting the bass managed channels between them. Maybe C to one and LFE to the other, and then splitting the remaining right and left channels. If you ever added a layer of heights, the additional inputs of two subwoofers would be nice to have (the 7360 has 7 inputs + LFE and I think the 7330 has the same number). I don't have enough subwoofer inputs to bass mange the heights. Sub integration with GLM is quick and simple. I have not experimented much with different cut-off frequencies. I use the default 85 Hz. I have not tried other subs.

"When daisy-chaining multiple subwoofers with analogue signals, run a cable from the Link Out connector to the next subwoofer’s Link In connector. When using the LFE
signal, also run a cable from the LFE Out to the next subwoofer’s LFE In." 7360 manual

I don't have an AVR. All audio sources are on a Mac (Apple Music/TV for atmos, Roon for 5.1 music, VOX for a few 5.1.4 and 7.1.4 files, Dolby Reference Player for some bluray atmos, VLC for video w/ 5.1). I have the Okto Dac8 Pro and a Focusrite 4i4 configured as a 12-channel aggregate device (very easy on Mac). One of the Okto Dac8 Pro outputs is the LFE.

Genelec is pretty good about answering questions quickly and not up-selling. I like what I have but I'm no expert on anything

Sure, I will ask the Genelec Reps. I did lots of research 2 years ago to get Atmos content via MAC but could not find one. Also, dropped the idea to add height monitors. Can MAC now decode Atmos content? Thats cool. BTW, how do you upscale 2ch Apple Music (incase of missing ATMOS content) to multichannel since you do not have an AVR? In my case, my AVR does the upscaling via DSP's like dolby sorround.

 

[flysouth]

that got philosophical quick!

I admire the scientists and analysis put into every model mentioned. how much is science playing into this decision? sorry if I missed it

 

[mkt]

Sure, I will ask the Genelec Reps. I did lots of research 2 years ago to get Atmos content via MAC but could not find one. Also, dropped the idea to add height monitors. Can MAC now decode Atmos content? Thats cool. BTW, how do you upscale 2ch Apple Music (incase of missing ATMOS content) to multichannel since you do not have an AVR? In my case, my AVR does the upscaling via DSP's like dolby sorround.

Apple Music, Apple TV, and Safari (in theory, in practice only one site that I know of) support atmos. I don't know of a player for local files that does atmos (other than the Dolby Reference Player). So yeah I think that an AVR is a much more complete and straightforward solution for decoding and upscaling. I had a Mac and gradually (slippery slope) kept adding speakers.

Audio MIDI Setup is pretty handy.

 

[tifune]

Apple Music, Apple TV, and Safari (in theory, in practice only one site that I know of) support atmos. I don't know of a player for local files that does atmos (other than the Dolby Reference Player). So yeah I think that an AVR is a much more complete and straightforward solution for decoding and upscaling. I had a Mac and gradually (slippery slope) kept adding speakers.

Audio MIDI Setup is pretty handy.
View attachment 353980

That looks great compared to Windows. Have you ever tried an Atmos MKV?

 

[mkt]

I have not found a player for Mac that plays atmos mkv. With VLC I get 5.1 or 7.1.

 

[feitaishi]

I have not found a player for Mac that plays atmos mkv. With VLC I get 5.1 or 7.1.

try Optimus infuse movist

 

[mkt]

try Optimus infuse movist

I have not had success with those either.

 

[Sprint]

Apple Music, Apple TV, and Safari (in theory, in practice only one site that I know of) support atmos. I don't know of a player for local files that does atmos (other than the Dolby Reference Player). So yeah I think that an AVR is a much more complete and straightforward solution for decoding and upscaling. I had a Mac and gradually (slippery slope) kept adding speakers.

Audio MIDI Setup is pretty handy.
View attachment 353980

Thanks a lot! If I am not wrong, in Mac I can play Apple Music and via Audio MIDI route the Atmos content from Apple Music to the proper channel before it is fed to the DAC. I assume the same would apply to watch Netflix and via Audio MIDI route the Atmos content to the proper channel before it is fed to the DAC. Is my assumption correct?

 

[mkt]

Thanks a lot! If I am not wrong, in Mac I can play Apple Music and via Audio MIDI route the Atmos content from Apple Music to the proper channel before it is fed to the DAC.

Correct. You set the speaker configuration of the device in Audio MIDI. Currently (depending on the number of channels in your device) the options are 5.1.2 and 7.1.4. 5.1.4 seems to have been an option at some point.

I assume the same would apply to watch Netflix and via Audio MIDI route the Atmos content to the proper channel before it is fed to the DAC. Is my assumption correct?

I have not had success with getting Netflix in more than stereo on Mac in safari. Technically it's possible since I stream in atmos from https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/ Most of the video I watch is file-based and 5.1 is OK.

AVR with active speakers seems silly but seems hard to beat for practicality.

 

[wmilas]

I run a single 7370 with a pair of 8351b’s. I can not stress how large it is. Seriously. It’s big. If you don’t mind the aesthetics of it it’ll be MUCH easier to integrate into your gsm profile than a pair of 7360s. It’s also considerably more powerful than a pair of 60s. You can’t compare the 70 to competitors. I’ve owned, and still do, top of the line SVS, Rythmik, and REL subs. They do not compare.

I also own a Minidsp Flex (I have a KEF Ref 1 system I use it on) The GSM sub integration is superior compared to the Minidsp assuming you are feeding the Genelcs digital.

In summary. If you can get over a giant black industrial box with a sandwiched can in it with metal crossmembers, get a 70.

 

[Sprint]

I run a single 7370 with a pair of 8351b’s. I can not stress how large it is. Seriously. It’s big. If you don’t mind the aesthetics of it it’ll be MUCH easier to integrate into your gsm profile than a pair of 7360s. It’s also considerably more powerful than a pair of 60s. You can’t compare the 70 to competitors. I’ve owned, and still do, top of the line SVS, Rythmik, and REL subs. They do not compare.

I also own a Minidsp Flex (I have a KEF Ref 1 system I use it on) The GSM sub integration is superior compared to the Minidsp assuming you are feeding the Genelcs digital.

In summary. If you can get over a giant black industrial box with a sandwiched can in it with metal crossmembers, get a 70.

Thanks @wmilas for the tip! I already realised that 7370 will be huge and would be a no go from WAF. Also I am still not sure about the proper bass response with one Sub, I decided to go for 2 7360. I am still toying with several settings that sounds optimal for me. Here is a pic. may be, I may go for another 7360 or 70 some years late and place it behind the couch and call it end game :-D.