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Hello everyone, the test comes at just the right time. My one Klipsch subwoofer is due for an upgrade.

I mainly listen to music in my 40 m² living room with additional open kitchen with 11 m² and sometimes movies. As speakers I have a pair of KEF R11s that I use on a Marantz Cinema 40 with DIRAC Live Bass Control.

To get a better bass I want to replace the one Klipsch with two subs positioned at the front and back wall. Before the test I had already had my eye on the DB4S, but the ELAC 2070 was also recommended to me.

Has someone compared the DB4S with the ELAC 2070?

Is the DB4S a good counter part to the KEF R11? And do two DB4S have enough power to fire up my living room?
 
As a consequence of your detailed test of these 10+1 SW, I have purchased one from Arendel, the 1729 1V, because I need balanced connectors for the source (Okto DAC8 Stereo). It will take at least another month to receive the 1729 1V. Thank you for a detailed and impeccable test.
 
Hi, it's been a while!
I would like to thank the people who made this project possible on a scale never before imagined in South Korea. I measured a total of 10 subwoofers, including my own DIY subwoofer(L26RO4Y), and measured them to the CEA-2010 standard using a Klippel TBM module. Below are photos and a list of the subwoofers I measured.

View attachment 321682

(In order from left to right)

- Arendal 1961 1V

- Arendal 1961 1S

- Neumann KH750

- Bowers & Wilkins DB4S

- SVS SB-3000

- SVS SB-2000 pro

- SVS SB-1000 pro

- Polk audio PSW111

- My DIY Subwoofer

- SVS 3000 micro

This is officially the first time CEA-2010 has been measured in South Korea.
So there was a lot of trial and error, which took a lot of time.
And for the products that were not loaded enough, I did a second measurement under slightly harsher conditions with the owner's permission, and added data.

View attachment 321681
View attachment 321680

With that out of the way, let's get down to business, releasing data starting with the SVS SB-1000 pro model.
All subsequent data will be presented in the same format, with the only difference being the product name.

As I'll explain later, there are a lot of variables in active subwoofers, so it's not possible to compare products on a fixed basis.

SVS SB-1000 pro


View attachment 321683


-21.2dBu means that we measured with an input of 80dB SPL@2m (100Hz) and an output of 80dB SPL@2m (100Hz).
(I state this because it can vary depending on the volume and gain knob settings on the product).

THD
View attachment 321684View attachment 321685View attachment 321686View attachment 321687

Group delay
View attachment 321688View attachment 321689

ETC
View attachment 321690

Measure the attenuation level for 100ms after the peak (0dBFS).
Higher attenuation is considered ideal.

View attachment 321691

Now it's finally time to measure the TBM module. First, let's take a moment to explain how the TBM module works.

The TBM module measures a preset frequency, one cycle for each voltage, gradually increasing the voltage. If the THD value of the measured signal exceeds the threshold, it moves on to the next frequency. In other words, if you measure 20 Hz and the THD crosses the threshold, you move on to the next measured frequency, 25 Hz.

This is where the start voltage and maximum voltage settings become very important. The reason for this is that if you make the measurement too harsh, you risk damaging certain products, and if you make it too soft, you lose discrimination between products. Unfortunately, since I had to measure 10 subwoofers in one day with a lot of trial and error, I couldn't find the optimal measurement level for each product.

Therefore, I only set the minimum input gain and SPL for each product, and then replicated the rest of the conditions and measurement module settings.
So keep in mind that what may seem like an advantage for some products may not work for others.

However, please understand that we had to take this conservative approach because protecting the product is our number one priority.

View attachment 321695

The following introduces the THD thresholds for each frequency in this module.

According to the CEA-2010B standard, there are different THD thresholds for each frequency.

The two thresholds above indicate that,
If you don't intuitively understand what this means, it means that there are different values of acceptable THD for each measurement frequency!

In other words, at lower frequency measurements, we're more forgiving, but as we move to higher frequencies, we get stricter about THD.

And this applies as follows

View attachment 321696

If the THD of the measured signal is all below the threshold, the corresponding frequency measurement is PASS!

View attachment 321697

If any of them touch the threshold, that measurement will FAIL!

And if it fails, then we just move on to the next frequency measurement,
We have a threshold level, called [Neglect Threshold Below], that determines if we should try to resume the measurement with a higher voltage.

For this measurement, it doesn't matter much because I mostly set this value equal to the maximum voltage.
In other words, even if it fails, it tries to increase the level unconditionally up to the preset value.

Peak Value
View attachment 321692


If you've never seen this plot before, you might be confused.
Basically, the more closely spaced the frequencies, the better the effective bandwidth, and the straighter the line, the better the output.

However, each subwoofer has a different preset output value from the manufacturer, so it's not a perfect comparison.

View attachment 321693

View attachment 321694


Looking at this data, you should see some of the PASS! and FAIL! we discussed earlier.


The orange ones at relatively low voltages are the ones where background noise has crossed the THD threshold, so if you see green values at higher outputs, you can ignore anything below that.
(This is where the sophisticated 'Neglect Threshold below' setting comes in).


The first thing to look at is the top green value for each frequency.
That's the maximum output of that subwoofer, at least for the current measurement.

But that's not all.

Each measured signal increases by exactly 1 dB,
There are many instances where the actual measured SPL value is less than 1 dB, even at frequencies where a passing score is achieved.

In other words, the THD didn't touch the threshold in the 2010B standard, but it was already eating up compression in the lower range.

This is where you need to be proactive in your interpretation of each product.

View attachment 321698

View attachment 321699


The maximum voltage that the product can accept in the current measurement setup.
(More precisely, the voltage it can take within the limits of its normal output.)


View attachment 321700

THD% at the PASSed point for each frequency.

View attachment 321701



THD% by output.
Each frequency is color coded.

I hope you enjoy these measurements.
I'll leave you with the data for the remaining nine subwoofers in order, along with their names.



+++++

I apologize for not attaching a more detailed description and evaluation of the data and plots.

Can you please rank them!
 
Can you please rank them!
This is difficult as there are too many criteria to take into account, and it is all a matter of compromise.
Still, I did a high level overview for non-expert users in #135 (which is a botched aberration for purists :p); as my friend was looking for a sub.
He ended up buying the 1961 1S and is happy with it.
 
I currently have one SB-1000 Pro and looking to get another sub.

1961 1S probably fits my needs best (not too big, not crazy expensive).

Any other subs at this price point or below that are better do you think?

Given I listen at relatively low volumes (70db) it doesn't sound like upgrading the existing 1000 pro, after properly integrated and dirac applied?
 
Apart from CEA-2010 what's the next most important measure or two? Group delay seems to be raised quite often in this thread.
 
Do you think it’s worthwhile to get the Neumann kh750 for its superior dsp then the svs sb2000 pro.
 
Does the Neumann kh750 dsp work without the ma1 mic and Neumann monitors. I am considering using them with Kali in8 v2.
there won’t be time alignment, but eq settings are extensive. Is there any comparative sub with such dsp at a cheaper price.
 
Does the Neumann kh750 dsp work without the ma1 mic and Neumann monitors. I am considering using them with Kali in8 v2.
there won’t be time alignment, but eq settings are extensive. Is there any comparative sub with such dsp at a cheaper price.
you can use the sub and also the ma1 with your monitors. There are many options on the back how you can set them up.
You can use the MA1 to use the Neumann Software and correct the response of the subwoofer, or you select ,,external bass management,, on the back of the sub, so you can plug in your minidsp, dirac or simply your Pre-Amp. With the Ma1 there are now the possibility of using up to 4 Subwoofers i think for the correction
 
you can use the sub and also the ma1 with your monitors. There are many options on the back how you can set them up.
You can use the MA1 to use the Neumann Software and correct the response of the subwoofer, or you select ,,external bass management,, on the back of the sub, so you can plug in your minidsp, dirac or simply your Pre-Amp. With the Ma1 there are now the possibility of using up to 4 Subwoofers i think for the correction
Are you saying that i can eq the signal the Kali receives from the Neumann subwoofer.

also, can I use the neumann software without the m1 for measurements. I already have umik1 microphone I plan to use with REW.
can I then use the corrections to input in Neumann software manually.
i don’t want to buy the ma1 microphone.
 
Are you saying that i can eq the signal the Kali receives from the Neumann subwoofer.

also, can I use the neumann software without the m1 for measurements. I already have umik1 microphone I plan to use with REW.
can I then use the corrections to input in Neumann software manually.
i don’t want to buy the ma1 microphone.
I used the KH750 sub before my KH150 with Unity Audio SuperRock Monitors. I'm not 100% sure if its still possible but you can measure, use the EQ and all that runs at the end over the KH750.

It works completly fine with my setup back then and i havent any crossover issues or problems. Its just an different Analog Monitor like the KH310.

No you cant just measure or manually EQ in MA1. You need REW for that. MA1 cant just ,,measure or EQ,,. Its an Automatic Alignment not Manual :)

Dont work like that because you need to enter the Microphone Serial Nr when you start MA1
 
Ok, so there could be some phase differences and time alignment when using other brand main monitors sure.

what I meant with umik1 and REW is that I can generate a correction profile for my Kali mains.
then attach the kalis to Neumann sub.
then manually enter the correction profile as close as possible in the neumann software.
or even use the Neumann iPad app to do similar settings if possible.

i just don’t see the point in paying for ma1 microphone and audio interface when I won’t even need it after running the calibration.
i have the umik1 already and don’t want to spend more.
I used the KH750 sub before my KH150 with Unity Audio SuperRock Monitors. I'm not 100% sure if its still possible but you can measure, use the EQ and all that runs at the end over the KH750.

It works completly fine with my setup back then and i havent any crossover issues or problems. Its just an different Analog Monitor like the KH310.

No you cant just measure or manually EQ in MA1. You need REW for that. MA1 cant just ,,measure or EQ,,. Its an Automatic Alignment not Manual :)

Dont work like that because you need to enter the Microphone Serial Nr when you start MA1
 
But why use Neumann's DSP? Buy an miniDSP and set everything up manually. The MA1 isnt flexible enough for this. Same as Genelec's GLM. Its a software & algorithms written for this specific products.
I personally recommend you something from miniDSP.
Buy one or better two normal Subwoofers and set everything up with it.
 
Neumann or genelec has good science behind it. It also offers the best dsp on the market.
so it is between svs sb2000 pro vs neumann kh750.
neumann has superior dsp and measurement, while the svs sb2000 pro has 3 band eq and is louder and cheaper.

worth spending £290 on Minidsp 2x4 hd ? that is almost half the price of the superior Minidsp flex model.
 
Yes good science but the MA1 is still far from ,superior,. It has to many bugs with every new versions. You get good results when the software works but Genelec is miles ahead over the MA1. Maybe GLM looks not as ,professional, as MA1 but the overall Software Possibilitys are so good and professional.

And a 3-Band EQ is totally nonsense and not helpful for a good Sub Integration. You still need an powerfull DSP...

however, do what you think works for you and just test it out. Everyone has a different taste
 
Why would SB-1000 pro have a deeper extension than SB-2000 pro?
That seems wrong unless I'm somehow misinterpreting the data
 
Does svs pro model lineup include high pass filter via its smartphone app.
the existing rca outputs on the back seem to say line level, but can it be changed through a setting of some sort.
 
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