Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor)

[ShadowFiend]

Sorry i do aliexpress Android tablets and self assembled desktop with virtually the same components thus performance (not going to argue about pc case preferences) against a fraction of the price. This brings us back to square one that there are/will be solutions around the corner with comparable performance as a Trinnov at a fraction of the price. But this is something you obviously don't want to hear (i may not want to hear it either if I owned a Trinnov, but i don't).

Trinnov hardware is not terribly impressive. It's all about the software that they have developed over many years, offering a powerful Optimizer and very extensive, flexible user control of the processing that exceeds other solutions. I am not sure that kind of R&D from others is "around the corner". There are programs that offer powerful processing capability, such as Accurate, but they are much lower in breadth and scope than Trinnov's solution. As so often happens these days, it's the SW, not the HW, that sets it apart.

Not only software in general, there are also things like HDMI, Atmos, Auro, DTS which license fees needs to be paid and more importantly, implemented in software.

 

[voodooless]

Sorry i do aliexpress Android tablets and self assembled desktop with virtually the same components thus performance (not going to argue about pc case preferences) against a fraction of the price

No Android tablet has the performance of an iPad Pro, not until we see tablets running the X-Elite. You'll also be hard-pressed to find any AliExpress MacBook Pro alternative with the same performance, and build quality. Yes, you can build your own PC with better performance for way less. But usually, people don't buy only for that.

The Trinnov however, is obviously different. You don't buy this if you don't need it and just want some audio jewelry. You buy it to be a (home-)theatre workhorse, and performance is everything.

 

[Billy Budapest]

I interpreted shocking as “expensive *and* measures poorly” as opposed to “expensive but that is what you get for the last % of performance.”

To say a Trinnov is bad because its SINAD is mediocre misses the point. To say that it is shocking that they charge so much for something with that SINAD is missing the point.

To say that it’s shocking that people would pay so much for such a small improvement in room correction is a fair opinion.

My use of the word “shocking” is related to the $17,000 price, regardless of its measurements. I think most people would be shocked when they hear the price, even not knowing anything else about the component. So not exactly the same word usage as you.

 

[Billy Budapest]

So you want a Bosendorfer for the price of a Yamaha, at least until you find out how much a Yamaha costs....

I think you are reading a little too much into my comments. My point is that when hearing the unit costs $17,000, I find it shocking, as I imagine most members of the American buying public would. I’m not taking into account its performance or comparing it to another unit.

If you look back on my comment about the price being “shocking,” it’s to explain the negative reaction the Trinnov has been receiving on the forum.

 

[Billy Budapest]

I think the main turn-off for forum members is the shocking price of the unit. And it’s a legitimate complaint.

See my comment above. That’s what I was saying. That’s it. Nothing else. No need for extended conversation on my observation.

 

[beatelund]

This is where the performance of the Altitude16’s digital outs put everyone to shame.

View attachment 383513

Trinnov Altitude 32 Review

Trinnov Altitude 32 Review and Measurements This is a review and some measurements of a Trinnov Altitude 32. This is an older unit with components that are several generations old. What makes the Altitude 32 different from the Altitude 16 is the ability to use AES/EBU digital outputs for all...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The Altitude 32 has 16 channels of digital outs compared to the Altitude 16’s four, but LCR with 145 dB SINAD with flagship level room corrrection on?

Please show another product that does that and look at the price… (Storm Audio is the closest competitor but it only does 48 kHz Dirac. Even though the difference may not be audible, Trinnov justifiably lives in a higher measured performance tier).

StormAudio has similar sinad when doing digital out.
But when you turn on dirac it drops below 100db.
So their Trinnov has a huge advantage

 

[GXAlan]

Sorry i do aliexpress Android tablets and self assembled desktop with virtually the same components thus performance (not going to argue about pc case preferences) against a fraction of the price. This brings us back to square one that there are/will be solutions around the corner with comparable performance as a Trinnov at a fraction of the price. But this is something you obviously don't want to hear (i may not want to hear it either if I owned a Trinnov, but i don't).

You can get a very nice Android tablet with premium 2024 performance, but many people will still prefer an older iPad due to the operating system and ergonomics. You will get the same apparent web browser and WiFi and Netflix, but the user experience can be different.

If you were building PCs during the “race to 1Ghz” clock speeds, you will recognize my username. I am a huge fan of custom builds, although I have am a big fan of scratch and dent Dell Precision workstations where you pretty much are getting machines for the cost of parts.

If you pop off the hood of a Trinnov you will see that it’s all the daughter boards that are interesting along with software and knowledgeable tech support. It’s very different from madVR for example.

In the hobbyist world, there was a time where you could run a Hackintosh with regular Intel PCs and do so all sorts of great stuff. Here’s the thing. Apple was running some custom hardware with a lot of very off the shelf fundamentals. Even if you got a hacker to extract the entire boot environment and operating system off the Trinnov, which isn’t hard, you are still dependent on all of the other electronics surrounding it. That’s why you don’t see non-commercial, hobbyist / pirated versions of StormAudio and Trinnov.

StormAudio has similar sinad when doing digital out.
But when you turn on dirac it drops below 100db.
So their Trinnov has a huge advantage

Only in measurement. In an anechoic room, I don’t think the difference in SINAD is that obvious although I think it was @Buckeye Amps who had to return his Trinnov since it was too noisy with his Klipsch speakers.

At my listening position with my speakers, I don’t feel a need to upgrade the original DACs nor the need to even spend a few bucks on an external DAC.

Trinnov hardware is not terribly impressive. It's all about the software that they have developed over many years, offering a powerful Optimizer and very extensive, flexible user control of the processing that exceeds other solutions. I am not sure that kind of R&D from others is "around the corner". There are programs that offer powerful processing capability, such as Accurate, but they are much lower in breadth and scope than Trinnov's solution. As so often happens these days, it's the SW, not the HW, that sets it apart.

+1. If you look at JBL Synthesis, they have access to their in house pro team, the Arcam AVR line, and even their soundbar engineering team. Samsung even had a icePower amp AVR pre-Harman acquisition in the 1080p blu ray era.

But if you have an unlimited budget, the SDP-75 is still their answer. The cost to build something better just isn’t worth it.

For what it’s worth, Yamaha has SOTA commercial DSP (ViReal. 108.6 channel surround sound. Active Field Control) but they aren’t applying it to the consumer line. Sony has put their soundbar engineering team on the AZ receivers which many people like as long as they don’t have the noise issue.

If Topping didn’t want to license Dirac and licensed something from Sony or Yamaha, I bet it would still be pretty potent! The question is if they could get the reliability up to par given the track record of the PA5.

 

[Magnus]

I think you are reading a little too much into my comments. My point is that when hearing the unit costs $17,000, I find it shocking, as I imagine most members of the American buying public would. I’m not taking into account its performance or comparing it to another unit.

If you look back on my comment about the price being “shocking,” it’s to explain the negative reaction the Trinnov has been receiving on the forum.

Have you noticed the price of the new MadVR "cheap" scaler (Envy)? It's a scaler! That's all it does along with tone mapping (pretty much a projector only product). It's like $6000. The regular one is $15,000! Now that's SHOCKING and no one and I mean no one questions it.

They compare it to Kaleidescape, which has a new "cheap" entry model ($3000) that only has enough storage for about 10 movies on it. To store more, you need their Stratos Server, which starts at 8TB for $20,000! Now a 8TB SSD can be had for $650 or less (under $200 for rotating drives). Even with a backup, you're looking at $1200 + $265 for a new Zidoo Z9X Pro media player plus maybe $200 for a bluray from drive and a licensed copy of MakeMKV and you're around $1500 instead of $23,000 for roughly the same experience! Now THAT is what I call shocking!

At least the Trinnov and Storm products are more or less in a league of their own. I've achieved 11.1.8 with Heights+Tops for around $2600 instead using Scatmos instead of $17,000, but that requires a lot of work and rack space (and seven processors) and still lacks a huge number of features many high end setups want.

 

[Golfx]

Have you noticed the price of the new MadVR "cheap" scaler (Envy)? It's a scaler! That's all it does along with tone mapping (pretty much a projector only product). It's like $6000. The regular one is $15,000! Now that's SHOCKING and no one and I mean no one questions it.

They compare it to Kaleidescape, which has a new "cheap" entry model ($3000) that only has enough storage for about 10 movies on it. To store more, you need their Stratos Server, which starts at 8TB for $20,000! Now a 8TB SSD can be had for $650 or less (under $200 for rotating drives). Even with a backup, you're looking at $1200 + $265 for a new Zidoo Z9X Pro media player plus maybe $200 for a bluray from drive and a licensed copy of MakeMKV and you're around $1500 instead of $23,000 for roughly the same experience! Now THAT is what I call shocking!

At least the Trinnov and Storm products are more or less in a league of their own. I've achieved 11.1.8 with Heights+Tops for around $2600 instead using Scatmos instead of $17,000, but that requires a lot of work and rack space (and seven processors) and still lacks a huge number of features many high end setups want.

Your Kscape prices are in error. The new player (Strato V) is 4K not 3K. But your prices on the Terra server are way too high. 8TB is only 5K not 20K. BTW the new stand alone Strato V holding only 10 movies is NOT that negative a deal. Once you purchase a movie from Kscape it stays on their servers available to redownload again for free should you need to delete a movie off of the Strato V to put a new one on. On a one Gig internet line, one 4K movie takes about 10 min to download.

 

[Magnus]

Your Kscape prices are in error. The new player (Strato V) is 4K not 3K. But your prices on the Terra server are way too high. 8TB is only 5K not 20K. BTW the new stand alone Strato V holding only 10 movies is NOT that negative a deal. Once you purchase a movie from Kscape it stays on their servers available to redownload again for free should you need to delete a movie off of the Strato V to put a new one on. On a one Gig internet line, one 4K movie takes about 10 min to download.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't rely on my memory lately given the Lacunar Stroke I supposedly had a few months ago (MRI suggests it).

But I did see $10k for 8TB (not $20k).

Kaleidescape - Terra Prime Solid-State Drive (SSD) - Dreamedia AV

Experience the Pinnacle of Home Cinema with Terra Prime SSD Imagine a world where your favorite films are not just movies, but experiences that captivate your senses, immerse you in stunning visuals, and envelop you in lossless audio perfection. The Kaleidescape Terra Prime Solid-State Drive...

dreamediaav.com

Kaleidescape Compact Terra Prime Movie Server (SSD) 8TB Storage For Home Theaters - Kaleidescape KSCAPE-K0114-0008-SSD

#KSCAPE-K0114-0008-SSD - Kaleidescape Compact Terra Prime Movie Server (SSD) 8TB Storage For Home Theaters

www.projectorscreen.com

You still end up at $14k for 8TB and a player. It will be a big deal if K-scape goes out of business (bankrupt once already). Anything not on the hard drive will be lost forever. I've got 16TB on my Zidoo (less than $500 for a 16TB rotational drive and a backup copy).

I know people with 50+TB connected to their Zidoo and they still paid nowhere near that. I have my 1080p and under collection on my server. The Zidoo 16TB drive is strictly 3D (283 titles) and some 4K BDs (around 100 as my projector isn't even 4K yet, but many remasters are better looking even at 1080p and DTS:X is often only on 4K discs. I've got most of my 4K titles on simple iTunes, many being free upgrades from 1080p digital copy titles.

 

[Golfx]

Yeah, I probably shouldn't rely on my memory lately given the Lacunar Stroke I supposedly had a few months ago (MRI suggests it).

But I did see $10k for 8TB (not $20k).

Kaleidescape - Terra Prime Solid-State Drive (SSD) - Dreamedia AV

Experience the Pinnacle of Home Cinema with Terra Prime SSD Imagine a world where your favorite films are not just movies, but experiences that captivate your senses, immerse you in stunning visuals, and envelop you in lossless audio perfection. The Kaleidescape Terra Prime Solid-State Drive...

dreamediaav.com

Kaleidescape Compact Terra Prime Movie Server (SSD) 8TB Storage For Home Theaters - Kaleidescape KSCAPE-K0114-0008-SSD

#KSCAPE-K0114-0008-SSD - Kaleidescape Compact Terra Prime Movie Server (SSD) 8TB Storage For Home Theaters

www.projectorscreen.com

You still end up at $14k for 8TB and a player. It will be a big deal if K-scape goes out of business (bankrupt once already). Anything not on the hard drive will be lost forever. I've got 16TB on my Zidoo (less than $500 for a 16TB rotational drive and a backup copy).

I know people with 50+TB connected to their Zidoo and they still paid nowhere near that. I have my 1080p and under collection on my server. The Zidoo 16TB drive is strictly 3D (283 titles) and some 4K BDs (around 100 as my projector isn't even 4K yet, but many remasters are better looking even at 1080p and DTS:X is often only on 4K discs. I've got most of my 4K titles on simple iTunes, many being free upgrades from 1080p digital copy titles.

That terra price is for the SSD they also still have 8TB with regular hard drives for less.

But again you do not need the extra storage of a terra SSD to watch movies. The stand alone Strato V can be emptied and refilled again and again without regard to buying Terra extra storage. Your purchased movies “not downloaded” onto you Strato V can be safely kept on the main Kscape movie servers.

 

[Magnus]

That terra price is for the SSD they also still have 8TB with regular hard drives for less.

But again you do not need the extra storage of a terra SSD to watch movies. The stand alone Strato V can be emptied and refilled again and again without regard to buying Terra extra storage. Your purchased movies “not downloaded” onto you Strato V can be safely kept on the main Kscape movie servers.

You're just making excuses for the inexcusable. You apparently didn't read what I wrote about what happens if they go bankrupt (came close once already) and having to FULLY DOWNLOAD movies before watching them is a minor to major hassle depending on your internet speeds and server conditions (hold on guys, just another 15 minutes and we can start the movie demo. Oops, Harry Potter isn't one of my ten. I know you wanted to hear the flying car scene. It'll just be another 20 minutes....)

 

[Golfx]

You're just making excuses for the inexcusable. You apparently didn't read what I wrote about what happens if they go bankrupt (came close once already) and having to FULLY DOWNLOAD movies before watching them is a minor to major hassle depending on your internet speeds and server conditions (hold on guys, just another 15 minutes and we can start the movie demo. Oops, Harry Potter isn't one of my ten. I know you wanted to hear the flying car scene. It'll just be another 20 minutes....)

You are right. Your judgement is the only one that matters. It is possible to anticipate and download ahead of time.

 

[GXAlan]

Kaleidescape used to be part of Ultraviolet but they didn’t get in Movies Anywhere. I wouldn’t mind the full price of the machine if it had Movies Anywhere because content is cheap, the full price of movies if they can be accessed elsewhere.

Objectively, if I have the budget for a Kaleidescape, I have the budget to buy movies twice. Emotionally, it doesn’t feel right that Kaleidescape used to be part of the Hollywood club elite and now isn’t.

In contrast, if Kaleidescape could be a modern version of Prima Cinema, and get rentals before anyone else does, and at the full DCI visuals and theater mix, it would also be compelling even though I would never own anything…

Weird how the brain works like that…

The $35,000 device that celebrities and the super-rich use at home to stream movies still in theaters

What happens when you are rich and famous and want to see the latest movies, but don’t want...

finance.yahoo.com

 

[Golfx]

Kaleidescape used to be part of Ultraviolet but they didn’t get in Movies Anywhere. I wouldn’t mind the full price of the machine if it had Movies Anywhere because content is cheap, the full price of movies if they can be accessed elsewhere.

Objectively, if I have the budget for a Kaleidescape, I have the budget to buy movies twice. Emotionally, it doesn’t feel right that Kaleidescape used to be part of the Hollywood club elite and now isn’t.

In contrast, if Kaleidescape could be a modern version of Prima Cinema, and get rentals before anyone else does, and at the full DCI visuals and theater mix, it would also be compelling even though I would never own anything…

Weird how the brain works like that…

The $35,000 device that celebrities and the super-rich use at home to stream movies still in theaters

What happens when you are rich and famous and want to see the latest movies, but don’t want...

finance.yahoo.com

I wasn’t trying to change your mind. Just add accurate prices and logic.

Your points of 1. They went bankrupt once and 2. Movies take time to download are true.

Where do you get your movies to watch? Blu-ray Discs or other streaming services? Don’t those take time too? Price is also a given to me. If you have a nice HT system and can afford Kscape they offer the highest quality video and audio for in home use comparable to purchasing the Blu-ray Disc.

 

[Littletycoon]

In the end: small volumes require high prices to sustain a business model: That goes for Trinnov that goes for Kaleidescape. That may even go more for Kaleidescape as the opportunity cost to mimic comparable value is much lower for Average Joe. 95% don't see the value at all compared to Netflix, etc. And many of those that value less/no compression/advanced audio come close with dyi which has lower opportunity costs

 

[Golfx]

In the end: small volumes require high prices to sustain a business model: That goes for Trinnov that goes for Kaleidescape. That may even go more for Kaleidescape as the opportunity cost to mimic comparable value is much lower for Average Joe. 95% don't see the value at all compared to Netflix, etc. And many of those that value less/no compression/advanced audio come close with dyi which has lower opportunity costs

Sorry. Your last sentence is hard to decipher. Not sure of its meaning.

 

[GXAlan]

I wasn’t trying to change your mind. Just add accurate prices and logic.

Your points of 1. They went bankrupt once and 2. Movies take time to download are true.

Where do you get your movies to watch? Blu-ray Discs or other streaming services? Don’t those take time too? Price is also a given to me. If you have a nice HT system and can afford Kscape they offer the highest quality video and audio for in home use comparable to purchasing the Blu-ray Disc.

Oh I agree. Was just saying now my feelings on Kaleidescape don’t match data/science but I cannot change my emotional response. A lot of shows I watched have been streaming only, not theatrical release, but I have bought shows like Andor and Star Trek Strange New Worlds on disc for the superiority of the picture and sound and re watched them.

I stream and use physical media. I don’t mind the download times but just as I am not convinced I need to spend money on madVR (even thought I used it in the Windows 8 era!), and I have kept my eye out for “deals” on the Kaleidescape, for some reason, I have not been enthusiastic about getting one.

I run a Trinnov Altitude 32 with 5.3.2 Meyer Sound Amie and a home brew sub built from a 2216nd woofer along Meyer Sound subs for the chest feel and am still rocking my 75” Sony X940E

I should be the target customer for Kaleidescape with a nice HT setup and ability to reallocate assets to it, but for whatever reason I don’t have that emotional push to get it.

 

[Magnus]

You are right. Your judgement is the only one that matters. It is possible to anticipate and download ahead of time.

Yeah, about 10 whole movies. If you own 400 and they go out of business, you get to keep 10 by your logic that you don't need storage. Sometimes, businesses just close shop with no notice too. They're not supposed to, but it happens.

The wait times are for full download unlike Apple TV that allows playback after sufficient buffering

 

[Littletycoon]

Sorry. Your last sentence is hard to decipher. Not sure of its meaning.

That with diy (nas + player, say dune 4/8k, homatics, ziddo, etc. + bluray drive) you can come close to the kaleidescape offering against a much lower price. The diy is a bit less convenient (more tinkering, time loss to buy bluray and rip it yourselves or digital copy) but attractive to many, the extra time spent is apparently worth the cost difference (opportunity cost).