Same point, in the signal chain, end to end, something is going to limit it to lower SINAD than 149 dB.It’s the digital output
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Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor)
- Thread starter amirm
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Using the 32 as example, specs show:It’s the digital output
The specs are good enough for transparency, but not SOTA, according to Amir:
In contacting me Trinnov expressed that they had made an optimization to the DAC that resulted in better measured performance but not audibly. For this reason, they have not promoted this change. They plan to make a more substantial revision of the DAC to come out later that they will offer as upgrade to current customers. They have asked me if I would participate in testing that and of course I said yes.
That's over 3 years ago, wonder if they have done the upgrade yet.
I am sure it is not an audibility issue, but then there is no point even talking about SINAD >110 dB let alone higher. And, regardless, just to feel good, I would like them to use better DAC ICs, and another ICs in the signal chain, that allows it to achieve better than 110 dB SINAD at the output. I know it makes no audibly better performance as they allegedly told Amir, but for $17,00 I still would want to have the best ICs used in the product, that's just me, I assume.
Trinnov | 36-Channel Reference Immersive Sound AV Processor
Since 2014, Trinnov's Altitude32 leads the AV Processor market to higher levels of performance and sustainability with Dolby Atmos, DTS:X Pro and Auro-3D
www.trinnov.com
Hardware
- Processor:Intel multi core hyper threaded
- ADC Resolution / Sampling Rate:24 bits/96 kHz
- DAC Resolution / Sampling Rate:24 bits/192 kHz
- A/D Signal-To-Noise Ratio:119 dB (A-Weighted)
- D/A Signal-To-Noise Ratio:118 dB (A-Weighted)
- Reference Level:+18dBu @ 0dBFS (Balanced)
- Clock / Jitter:attenuation > 50 dB above 100Hz
Exactly -- but it means that if you are chasing SINAD on an AV product, the Trinnov or Storm Audio paired with any of the 120 dB SINAD DACs here would be great.
As I point out in that same measurements forum post, the analog SINAD of that older generation is only in the 90's and it seems to be fine!
Okay, understood, but I think we are in agreement that it would be for those reasons (such as chasing...), but not of much real world/practical value, especially there aren't much applications where you would take advantage of the input right to output bypassing most everything in the signal path, and then going from digital output to what? Most people would use such a device with a power amp in the loop, or use headphones lol..
They have. I go over the versions in my post. They now ship with an ESS DAC, and UNCONFIRMED, it's the ES9080Q according to AVSForum. I haven't seen photos.
Sorry I missed that, but I have to then wonder why wouldn't they use (hopefully they did and that avsf ino may not be accurate) something like the ES9039pro, or the ES9038Pro used in the AVM90, or even the not as impressed ES9018K2M (specs on paper) used in the AV10 and A1H? The ES9080Q is okay but:
The ES9080Q has 8 channels of D/A conversion with a DNR of 120dB A-weighted and -108dB of THD+N in a 8 channel mode, while >125dB DNR A-weighted and-110dB THD+N can be achieved in a 4 channel differential mode.
That's not near as good as the AV10, A1H, let alone the AVM90's dac chip, or even the lowly AVM70. The Trinnov is great just on about everything else, why cheap out on the lousy DAC chip, really puzzling, interesting! Whether the better spec DAC = better sound, the use of them would at least shut many critics up, so that they can focus on the units real strengths too.
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My point is there is more to home theater than 2-channel THD and signal to noise ratios. I've got 25 PSB speakers in my home theater alone and two racks of amps with 19 discrete channels not including subwoofers (2 extra arrays for Auro-3D and 4 extracted ambience floor speakers for the front row).
Home theater isn't just a sound bar and an Apple TV with a 65" screen anymore.
As for these holy grail SINAD numbers, it's been proven distortion isn't audible until amounts that would make Amir blush. There's a difference between science and a fool's errand.
I've read at the most sensitive frequencies, THD isn't audible until 0.5%. (So even with the proposed 110dB S/N you get 110dB + 0.5% THD = 46dB SINAD. Decrease THD a magnitude to be safe (0.05%) and you're still at a mere 66dB SINAD! Almost everything on here is rated above 66dB! 0.01% has generally been considered the target for absolute inaudibility and there you get 80dB. You're getting 90+dB and many people still aren't happy.
It's absurd to keep chasing numbers into oblivion, particularly if it causes the products to cost hundreds or even thousands more to satisfy AudioFool nonsense.
The Trinnov Altitude range isn't going to be on most people's short list, but the reason it costs $17k has nothing to do with its SINAD performance and its sad they even have to be concerned about numbers on here far beyond the audible just to not get their name smeared. Show me another 20-channel Atmos decoder that can handle 20-channel Atmos decoding (effectively 19 + LFE) (not just 15-channel plus subs) for significantly less, let alone with their legendary room correction system and other DSP capabilities.
Home theater isn't just a sound bar and an Apple TV with a 65" screen anymore.
As for these holy grail SINAD numbers, it's been proven distortion isn't audible until amounts that would make Amir blush. There's a difference between science and a fool's errand.
I've read at the most sensitive frequencies, THD isn't audible until 0.5%. (So even with the proposed 110dB S/N you get 110dB + 0.5% THD = 46dB SINAD. Decrease THD a magnitude to be safe (0.05%) and you're still at a mere 66dB SINAD! Almost everything on here is rated above 66dB! 0.01% has generally been considered the target for absolute inaudibility and there you get 80dB. You're getting 90+dB and many people still aren't happy.
It's absurd to keep chasing numbers into oblivion, particularly if it causes the products to cost hundreds or even thousands more to satisfy AudioFool nonsense.
The Trinnov Altitude range isn't going to be on most people's short list, but the reason it costs $17k has nothing to do with its SINAD performance and its sad they even have to be concerned about numbers on here far beyond the audible just to not get their name smeared. Show me another 20-channel Atmos decoder that can handle 20-channel Atmos decoding (effectively 19 + LFE) (not just 15-channel plus subs) for significantly less, let alone with their legendary room correction system and other DSP capabilities.
The ES9080Q has a recommended operating temperature of -20 to 85 C
The ES9038PRO has a recommended operating temperature of 0 to 70 C.
Instead of going for SINAD, they're going for more durable industrial-grade durability.
Littletycoon
Member
I think soon: arvus hd1/maybe 2 other products on the horizon that can convert (decode atmos/dts-x) hdmi into 16 channel aoip --> use windows pc with say audiolense & convolver.
Comparable performance at the fraction of the cost of a trinnov. I'd say can be more than 80% cheaper. Unfortunately not by definition straightforward to set up.
You basically need ARVUS -> Windows PC 16 channel AES input, 16 channel DAC, etc. You really want to be able to beat the Storm Audio not Trinnov when it comes to price/performance/reliability. Audiolense/Convolver doesn't get you to the Dirac ART (or Trinnov Waveforming).
The Storm Audio ISP Evo is $18,000.
H2-4D is $5000.
Lynx AES16e is $700
Audiolens XO is $420
CPU Load and Sound Quality
My normal usage for playing stereo is usually around 5%. And going full convolution DSP it would hit 100%. Except for some drop outs at 100% I do not hear any difference to the sound quality. The original sound was recorded in DAW and the file is very large. It is available on request. The sound ...
audiophilestyle.com
It doesn't overwhelm the setup, so if the i7-7700 is 4463 on geekbench we have to go with the i9-14900K.
Now you still need to make your i9-14900K quiet, etc. It just keeps adding up and up. The Arvus is really only for theaters that are custom constructed where you really don't need room correction since it has been done manually.
If you are running speakers that are all AOIP, you probably won't mid the extra $10K of the Storm Audio ISP Evo for a one-box solution.
Tthe Arvus H2-4D is the only product that makes sense for customers who only requires a digital output, such as Genelec owners.
Of course, it hasn't be measured yet.
Could you share what other 2 digital products are out on the horizon?
So all you need is a manufacturing process, quality assurance, a staff, employee benefits plan, distributors, dealers, R&D division, customer service, marketing division, etc etc etc
Arvus H2-4D multichannel Dolby Atmos digital processor Measurements
Sidebar 3: Measurements
www.stereophile.com
Digitally it is good. I guess Genelec GLM plus Arvus would be a really potent setup!
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$17,000 for a component is shocking. It doesn’t matter if you can afford it or want it. Could I afford it? Certainly. Do I want it? If it was priced, say, $2000 then yes. But $17,000 is shocking.
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I am not sure what your post has to do with my comment that you quoted. Perhaps you meant to respond to someone else?This is where the performance of the Altitude16’s digital outs put everyone to shame.
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Trinnov Altitude 32 Review
Trinnov Altitude 32 Review and Measurements This is a review and some measurements of a Trinnov Altitude 32. This is an older unit with components that are several generations old. What makes the Altitude 32 different from the Altitude 16 is the ability to use AES/EBU digital outputs for all...
The Altitude 32 has 16 channels of digital outs compared to the Altitude 16’s four, but LCR with 145 dB SINAD with flagship level room corrrection on?
Please show another product that does that and look at the price… (Storm Audio is the closest competitor but it only does 48 kHz Dirac. Even though the difference may not be audible, Trinnov justifiably lives in a higher measured performance tier).
I think “shocking” means a lot to different people.
Taken, quite literally, it is a surprise that something can cost that much when you can get 75% of the performance from a nice soundbar with a good
subwoofer and 90% of the performance with a plain Denon X3800H. It is shocking that you pay for that performance.
On the other hand, you could say the same thing about a Toyota Camry with a 0-60 of 5.1 seconds and if it’s really worth the extra money on an entry level Porsche 911 when you’re only saving a little over one second.
I interpreted shocking as “expensive *and* measures poorly” as opposed to “expensive but that is what you get for the last % of performance.”
To say a Trinnov is bad because its SINAD is mediocre misses the point. To say that it is shocking that they charge so much for something with that SINAD is missing the point.
To say that it’s shocking that people would pay so much for such a small improvement in room correction is a fair opinion.
So you want a Bosendorfer for the price of a Yamaha, at least until you find out how much a Yamaha costs....
In other words, My Marantz 7012 retailed for $2500! It's 11.2 channels. The cheapest 15.1 channel AVP in the world is $4000. The new Marantz Cinema10 (15.4) is $7000 (Denon A1H is $6500). Nothing below $27k does 20+ channels. It doesn't matter since you wouldn't want to pay for 20 speakers. At $2000 a pair, that would be another $20k. You're now $37k in with no amplifiers, no TV or projector/screen, furniture, wiring, lights or room treatments, let alone if the room needs work. Then there's sources.
My Lexicon MC-1 AVP cost $6k in year 2000 dollars (that'd be a few dollars shy of $11k today) and that included no room correction and only supported 7 speakers. Shocking! It sounded fantastic too for the time (Logic 7 is still great and so it's plugged into my 7.1 inputs).
The Lexicon MC-12 came out a couple of years later and cost $12k on 2003 ($20,500 in 2024) and it still only supported 7 speakers and not even TrueHD (just 7.1 passthrough), but there was a room correction system available if you bought the 4 mic kit).
Lexicon was not remotely the most expensive gear out there either. Look up Meridian processors from 2003. $17k-$19k in 2003 dollars ($30k+ today).
Talking about shocking
Is Audiolens really so poorly optimized? Just use CamilaDSP, it’s free and wil handle multichannel in a breeze.Talking about shocking
Agreed that CamilaDSP is easier, but I am still not seeing a net positive running the Arvus with a PC.
Arvus AES out to a pair of MiniDSP DDRC-88D to a AES67 encoder might work, but now you lose DLBC and you have to ask if the Marantz AV10 or HTP-1 is just a better option.
The concept of Audiolens giving higher precision correction only works if the system is configured that way.
I love homebrew *stuff* and I was a very early adopter of things like HTPCs in the original DVD era, but gosh — for home theater enthusiasts, hard to beat the HTP-1 even with the DAC/ADC into AOIP or the StormAudio ISP Evo if you want a refined setup.
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