How to get the best room correction. Trinnov?

[2Sunny]

Some folks may recognize me as the newbie that started the poll on the Law of Diminishing Returns, and realize I have changed my mind on topics numerous times in the last month, but here's my latest topic of interest.

For those that haven't read any of my recent posts let me offer a quick recap. First, I came here because I had a Klipsch home theater that I wanted to improve. Folks here recommended using REW with a UMIK-1 as a starting point, but I quickly decided just to upgrade my speakers, and was truly blown away by the difference in sound. In a matter of weeks I went from Klipsch RP-280Fs to Revel F36s to Revel F226Be's. I also learned how to use REW and started taking in room measurements. I currently have a Sony STR AZ7000ES and am using the Sony 360 SSM room correction with which I am quite impressed as regards movie watching. My system is a 5.2.4 with Revel F226Be towers, Revel M16 surrounds, SVS Prime Elevations heights, Ascend Acoustics center channel, dual SVS SB-1000 subs, 3 OutLaw 2200 monoblocks for the towers and center channels, and, of course, my STR AZ7000ES AVR.

But . . .

I'm very fortunate that I can spend a few dollars to experiment and not be concerned about the money. REW readings are showing me that there is considerable room for improvement in room correction and just now I found this picture online which has peaked my interest in trying a Trinnov Altitude16 mostly because I have no means of improving room correction with my current AVR or at least I do not know how I can apply room correction with what I currently have.

Questions:

1) If my goal is to get the best room correction currently available would a Trinnov Altitude 16 combined with Outlaw amps (1 x Outlaw 5000X + 4 x Outlaw 2200 monoblocks) work?
2) Are there important considerations of which I am unaware?


Here's the forum post that got me pointed towards using a Trinnov for the ultimate in room correction.

 

[Chr1]

Probably already mentioned but probably worth opting for a bit of room treatment too.

 

[GXAlan]

Trinnov is the best, but the magic really happens if you can do stuff like Waveforming.

I had the Sony STR-ZA5000ES which had the stereo mic as opposed to the quad mic equivalent. I then moved to the Yamaha CX-A5100 which had the tripod quad mic. Then the Monolith HTP-1 with Dirac/DLBC. Finally, I have the Trinnov Altitude32 now.

I actually had the original Sherwood R972 with Trinnov back in the day.

Trinnov is the best room correction, hands down. But in terms of incremental improvement , I would say 10% each step.

With your 360 SSM, it pushes the Sony probably to Dirac level in overall comparison. Dirac offers superior speaker EQ while Sony offers superior soundfield mapping. Trinnov gives you both, at extreme luxury premium.

The biggest challenge of Trinnov is loss of creature comforts like HDMI CEC support.

 

[ZolaIII]

@2Sunny I think it's time that you learn to interpret REW data and how to use it. It's not starting point it's pretty much all way around. Siting and thinking what you could done better, more simple and so on even when you are fully satisfied with result. I still prefer to do it by hand but I am on stereo only so it's lot less work all together.

Understanding the state of the DSP market

I thought I would make a public service post about DSP, because I have noticed that many people don't seem to understand it. I hope this post helps you understand what a DSP product offers you, what the advantages and disadvantages are, and ultimately help you choose what you want or need. This...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[GXAlan]

I still prefer to do it by hand but I am on stereo only so it's less less work all together.

It’s different for movies.

Think about REW or Dirac and these scenarios:

1) LCR speakers in proper Dolby configuration 10 ft away from mic.

2) LCR speakers lined up shoulder to shoulder 10 feet away

3) LCR speakers at 9, 12, and 3 o’clock where the TV is located at 12 o clock, when viewed for a top-down perspective, with all speakers 10 feet away

4) LCR speakers placed such that one speaker is 10 feet above you on the ceiling, one speaker is 10 feet to your right and one speaker is 10 feet behind you.

The reason Trinnov is so effective is that it knows the difference between these scenarios. In real life, few rooms have perfect speaker locations and the subtle corrections that Trinnov can handle to modify the soundfield.

This doesn’t matter as much for stereo, but for cinema, very different.

 

[2Sunny]

Trinnov is the best, but the magic really happens if you can do stuff like Waveforming.

I had the Sony STR-ZA5000ES which had the stereo mic as opposed to the quad mic equivalent. I then moved to the Yamaha CX-A5100 which had the tripod quad mic. Then the Monolith HTP-1 with Dirac/DLBC. Finally, I have the Trinnov Altitude32 now.

I actually had the original Sherwood R972 with Trinnov back in the day.

Trinnov is the best room correction, hands down. But in terms of incremental improvement , I would say 10% each step.

With your 360 SSM, it pushes the Sony probably to Dirac level in overall comparison. Dirac offers superior speaker EQ while Sony offers superior soundfield mapping. Trinnov gives you both, at extreme luxury premium.

The biggest challenge of Trinnov is loss of creature comforts like HDMI CEC support.

Wow. Awesome info thanks! This is not the first time I have found that one of your posts mirrored my efforts perfectly thanks again.

My first cursory look over what you wrote drove me to lookup "waveforming" which in turn made me see how important low end frequencies are to a home theater, and interestingly enough, since I recently purchased dual SVS subwoofers which have all sorts of control via the SVS app, that is an area that I have been experimenting with the most. In fact I own a third sub that I had in the basement so I brought that upstairs and spent many hours trying to perfect the room response. Now what I'm thinking is that before I go and spend $10k on a Trinnov maybe I should start with 2 more SVS subs and play with 5.4.4 for a while. It would definitely keep me busy for a bit

Thoughts?


Here's the readings I got with the flattest in room response I could achieve using all 3 subs including 2 SVS SB-1000s and 1 Polk Monitor XT12. I played around with every conceivable setting I could adjust as well as moving the subs around physically.

 

[GXAlan]

Wow. Now what I'm thinking is that before I go and spend $10k on a Trinnov maybe I should start with 2 more SVS subs and play with 5.4.4 for a while. It would definitely keep me busy for a while.

Thoughts?

Unfortunately, it’s closer to $20K MSRP and used prices are still around $15K. At $10k, it’s a pretty good price and you almost certainly will be able to resell it without a huge loss.

It’s a very hard question to answer. You see someone with a Trinnov and you assume they are super rich. You see someone in a BMW 3-series or Mercedes C class and that’s not too unusual. But the person who is in the BMW/Mercedes could have gone with a Subaru and a Trinnov instead. Nonetheless, it’s a silly amount of money to spend for the next notch up in performance. We do it all the time for cars though.

I actually think that if you can afford the Trinnov, you might as well get it before the prices go up from tariffs. With Trinnov you lose HDMI CEC, which feels like a step back in ergonomics but that tells you how much of an improvement the sound is.

I think bigger subs are a great idea too. Doing four subs where you have an emitter wall and then an absorption wall can be done but it’s pretty tricky to do the time alignment properly. This is different than simply having four subs in your room.

Trinnov makes every movie better, including dramas whereas the subs are only going to make a big difference for action movies.

Trinnov can be more challenging to setup and part of the cost is that it includes a lot of dealer support. That said, if you are reasonably technical, it’s not as scary as people make it sound.

Here's the readings I got with the flattest in room response I could achieve using all 3 subs including 2 SVS SB-1000s and 1 Polk Monitor XT12. I played around with every conceivable setting I could adjust as well as moving the subs around physically.
View attachment 445799

There is no replacement for displacement when it comes to subs. More precisely — cabinet size (not woofer size). The Klipsch SPL-150 occasionally drops to $379 (from 1300) and that offers a lot of impact.

Even though a lot of movies roll off at 30Hz or so, clean bass does make a difference and the movies with subsonic content is enhanced.

The question is also your target SPL. Waveforming is interesting because you would get benefits with four small subs. It doesn’t change the frequency response but what it will do is make your room bigger because the sound as it hits back wall and is about to bounce back, the rear subs fire an inverted time delayed signal to absorb the sound.

When you think about the Trinnov/Waveforming combo as an alternative to less cosmetically appealing room treatment or a far more expensive home remodel/home upgrade, then you can sort of rationalize the cost.

 

[2Sunny]

Probably already mentioned but probably worth opting for a bit of room treatment too.

Sadly or perhaps not depending on one's view my setup is in my family room that my wife frequents so typical room treatment measures that I've seen online are out of the question in this particular instance, but longer term we intend to downsize into a new construction home somewhere south of NY and when I do that I will most definitely build a dedicated theater room!

 

[pogo]

I would wait for the big roll-out of Dirac Live Active Room Treatment. Storm Audio devices already offer it, but other manufacturers such as Marantz, Onkyo, NAD, ... will also be offering it soon.

 

[2Sunny]

Unfortunately, it’s closer to $20K MSRP and used prices are still around $15K. At $10k, it’s a pretty good price and you almost certainly will be able to resell it without a huge loss.

It’s a very hard question to answer. You see someone with a Trinnov and you assume they are super rich. You see someone in a BMW 3-series or Mercedes C class and that’s not too unusual. But the person who is in the BMW/Mercedes could have gone with a Subaru and a Trinnov instead. Nonetheless, it’s a silly amount of money to spend for the next notch up in performance. We do it all the time for cars though.

I actually think that if you can afford the Trinnov, you might as well get it before the prices go up from tariffs. With Trinnov you lose HDMI CEC, which feels like a step back in ergonomics but that tells you how much of an improvement the sound is.

I think bigger subs are a great idea too. Doing four subs where you have an emitter wall and then an absorption wall can be done but it’s pretty tricky to do the time alignment properly. This is different than simply having four subs in your room.

Trinnov makes every movie better, including dramas whereas the subs are only going to make a big difference for action movies.

Trinnov can be more challenging to setup and part of the cost is that it includes a lot of dealer support. That said, if you are reasonably technical, it’s not as scary as people make it sound.



There is no replacement for displacement when it comes to subs. More precisely — cabinet size (not woofer size). The Klipsch SPL-150 occasionally drops to $379 (from 1300) and that offers a lot of impact.

Even though a lot of movies roll off at 30Hz or so, clean bass does make a difference and the movies with subsonic content is enhanced.

The question is also your target SPL. Waveforming is interesting because you would get benefits with four small subs. It doesn’t change the frequency response but what it will do is make your room bigger because the sound as it hits back wall and is about to bounce back, the rear subs fire an inverted time delayed signal to absorb the sound.

When you think about the Trinnov/Waveforming combo as an alternative to less cosmetically appealing room treatment or a far more expensive home remodel/home upgrade, then you can sort of rationalize the cost.

Yeah. Not sure why my head remembered $10k when I looked and knew it was $20k. Chalk it up to Old Timer's disease, hah. But, I did just look on eBay and there's an Altitude16 for sale for $15k from what seems to be a reputable source. Hmmmm. Like you said probably not a lot of risk since it shouldn't be too hard to resell if I wanted.

It's hard to believe that in equipment that expensive there's no support for HDMI CEC.

 

[mglobe]

I would wait for the big roll-out of Dirac Live Active Room Treatment. Storm Audio devices already offer it, but other manufacturers such as Marantz, Onkyo, NAD, ... will also be offering it soon.

I really wish someone could quantify “soon”.

 

[2Sunny]

I would wait for the big roll-out of Dirac Live Active Room Treatment. Storm Audio devices already offer it, but other manufacturers such as Marantz, Onkyo, NAD, ... will also be offering it soon.

You immediately peaked my interest, but am I correct that DIRAC Live ART is limited to 20-150Hz?

 

[NTK]

@SIY is supposed to have written (or may be still writing) a Trinnov review for AudioXpress. He seems to like it a lot.

JBL 308P MKII Studio Monitor Review

According to research and some of it Dr Toole's I believe (maybe he'll chime in) is reflections can actually increase enjoyment of the sound and add to things like dialogue intelligibilty. It depends on where the reflection is happening. If the reflection is similar to the direct sound it can...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Who buys $20,000 components?

I wonder what those 3 people do for music listening. The can afford anything that would strike their fancy. I've no idea but wouldn't surprise me if it's free Spotify and YouTube on their cell phone :D.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[SIY]

@SIY is supposed to have written (or may be still writing) a Trinnov review for AudioXpress. He seems to like it a lot.

JBL 308P MKII Studio Monitor Review

According to research and some of it Dr Toole's I believe (maybe he'll chime in) is reflections can actually increase enjoyment of the sound and add to things like dialogue intelligibilty. It depends on where the reflection is happening. If the reflection is similar to the direct sound it can...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Who buys $20,000 components?

I wonder what those 3 people do for music listening. The can afford anything that would strike their fancy. I've no idea but wouldn't surprise me if it's free Spotify and YouTube on their cell phone :D.

www.audiosciencereview.com

I am busy scribbling away.

 

[amirm]

1) If my goal is to get the best room correction currently available would a Trinnov Altitude 16 combined with Outlaw amps (1 x Outlaw 5000X + 4 x Outlaw 2200 monoblocks) work?
2) Are there important considerations of which I am unaware?

Yes. I had a trinnov 16 on loan for a while so set it up in my theater. I find having to use RDP and such to use it, every painful. You basically have log into the machine for remote desktop to manage it. Their microphone also didn't work very well in picking up the location of rear channels due to obstacles. But the former was the biggest issue for me. The sound was excellent though although I never remeasured manually to see what it had done.

I then installed the Anthem AVM90 processor. This is far easier to use and to my ears, sounds every bit as good as Trinnov. No, you can't remap speakers to different locations and such but that is not what I want to use the processor for.

As for REW, I would only use it to confirm the current response and resulting automated EQ. Manually optimizing a multichannel system with subs is simply not possible. You have infinite variations and you need that much time to get something good. Best to use an automated system and tweak things there. For stereo, yes, REW approach works but for multichannel, I would go with automated system with EQ.

 

[amirm]

I am pretty sure that "after calibration" is a simulation. If you measured using REW, you would see that the response is not at all that flat and smooth. There is also negative gain there which you have to compensate with more amplification power and more stress on the speakers. I am mostly sure that Anthem has the ability to post measure and give you real data.

 

[2Sunny]

Yes. I had a trinnov 16 on loan for a while so set it up in my theater. I find having to use RDP and such to use it, every painful. You basically have log into the machine for remote desktop to manage it. Their microphone also didn't work very well in picking up the location of rear channels due to obstacles. But the former was the biggest issue for me. The sound was excellent though although I never remeasured manually to see what it had done.

I then installed the Anthem AVM90 processor. This is far easier to use and to my ears, sounds every bit as good as Trinnov. No, you can't remap speakers to different locations and such but that is not what I want to use the processor for.

As for REW, I would only use it to confirm the current response and resulting automated EQ. Manually optimizing a multichannel system with subs is simply not possible. You have infinite variations and you need that much time to get something good. Best to use an automated system and tweak things there. For stereo, yes, REW approach works but for multichannel, I would go with automated system with EQ.

There is no way to put a value on the experiences you share through this website. I only hope life is rewarding you well.

Anyways, thank you for the input. Anthem hadn't crossed my radar, but your opinion and experience speaks volumes, and my cursory look just now makes me think it is a superior choice over the Trinnov. Obviously I have much to learn before I pick a processor to try, but methinks you just saved me over $10k. Beers on me if ever our paths cross. Thank you again for chiming in!

 

[pogo]

You immediately peaked my interest, but am I correct that DIRAC Live ART is limited to 20-150Hz?

DLART is extended upwards (300Hz) and downwards. DLRC takes over the remaining audible range. If subs are used, DLBC is also required.

 

[GXAlan]

It's hard to believe that in equipment that expensive there's no support for HDMI CEC.

If you look at my Altitude 32 measurement here at ASR, I mention that the ALT32 doesn’t even have IR remote power control. (The Alt16 doesn’t have infrared remote support).

The problem is that it’s really designed for people with fancy Creston or Control4 type systems. It’s the supercar requires supercar priced maintenance.

I have never experienced Dirac ART but at least in my room, I find Trinnov superior to Dirac.

I am pretty sure that "after calibration" is a simulation. If you measured using REW, you would see that the response is not at all that flat and smooth.

The after is a simulation, but it is pretty good in comparison to real measurements. The problem with the screenshot is that the default is 1/3 octave smoothing and the the Y-axis can be scaled.

The current firmware is better. It’s all done through a web interface and even the underlying VNC no longer requires you to manually log in. Just typing the IPaddress/vnc.html will work.

In terms of the mic positioning, there is a setting that tells the Trinnov to measure 3 times and if you cannot find the location of the speaker with high confidence, just move on. This makes it assume you have the normal Dolby position — which means that it is only as bad as everyone else. However that is not the default setting. Default is to try until it has high confidence in speaker location.

These closer your speakers are to ideal location, the less value you get from Trinnov’s 3D mic. The more chaotic your speaker locations are, such as in a multipurpose family room, the more value Trinnov brings.

These are my subs, but with less smoothing

And this is REW

Anyways, thank you for the input. Anthem hadn't crossed my radar, but your opinion and experience speaks volumes, and my cursory look just now makes me think it is a superior choice over the Trinnov.

The good thing about the Anthem is that you can get it from Crutchfield with an in home trial.

Finding a Trinnov dealer with a demo room can be a bit trickier to do a head to head comparison (how much is the electronics and how much is the room).

 

[obsessive9119]

There is also negative gain there which you have to compensate with more amplification power and more stress on the speakers.

I understand why negative gain EQ needs more amplification, but why would it put more stress on speakers?