Trinnov Waveforming finally released

[GXAlan]

Re BEQ - I just have 2 presets with Low Shelf boosting sub 20Hz frequencies, and it covers like 90% of BEQ recommendations. Just making sure it is applied in controlled manner [that you need to make conscious effort to turn them on, important, as my wife is often using HT by herself]

Can you share those presets? I thought about trying to use some machine learning to identify the two or three most common presets but if you have empirically determined an ideal generic setting, I would love to try it out.

 

[Fidji]

Can you share those presets? I thought about trying to use some machine learning to identify the two or three most common presets but if you have empirically determined an ideal generic setting, I would love to try it out.

Nothing scientific, just randomly scanned through 10-15 favorite movies

In my case I use Low Shelf in PEQ setting [in the speaker setup menu] AFTER calibration - after some fiddling with REW i have gone for 22Hz or 18Hz Q 1.3 and have 3 presets with gains of 3 6 and 9dB respectively -> equals 6 presets [i use 21-27]

Moderate curve +4.5dB at 50Hz vs 1kHz and add 3dB of sub gain as movie setting [different for Music - there I go with +1.5db and reach null poit at 500Hz].

WF - Max Decay control, Max Limiter control and at 27hz first mode, I use pressurisation as from 18Hz now [alternating with 21Hz]

 

[Fidji]

This may seem hard to believe, but I was of the same view for a time. That changed after watching the video linked in this post. I think that video was well summed up in this post by NTK.

Lot of things happened between Aug 23 and actual release.

One of the most important things to consider that between NTK speculating and not trusting Trinnov;s approach [which is fine] is that meanwhile there are numerous proofs that Waveforming works exactly, as claimed by Trinnov. And also it is quite obvious that is not just "fancy name for DBA" as some claim. Why? It works with setups that are far from DBA and workflow is also completely different to DBA setup.

I was part of Beta Early access - one of first with not-perfect DBA to have WF installed long before official release. So i had bit more contact with Trinnov during that period - and I can only say, that all the time they transparent about what can I expect and limits of WF. In its first iteration it was significant improvement over my DBA-like setup, also Trinnov seemed to be pleasantly surprised.

I can agree, that describing MSO as “cacophony” was not needed. Especially considering the fact, that before WF release, lot of Trinnov owners used MSO as alternative to internal bass calibration, that was quite basic [and still is today - offering either individual sub EQ or “lump up to 4 subs together adjust everything manually and then run the Optimizer”]

 

[sigbergaudio]

The case study we shared earlier is also pretty good evidence that it works pretty impressively in less than perfect rooms. Before/after frequency response + spectrogram is shared in the article.

Perfect bass with Trinnov WaveForming™ and Sigberg Audio Inkognito subwoofers

Introduction Bass in domestic rooms The bass response in any normal domestic room is typically very uneven, and good bass response is at best limited to a specific listening position even when employing multiple subwoofers. To get complete control over the lower frequencies in a normal room is a...

www.sigbergaudio.com

 

[tehas]

Nothing scientific, just randomly scanned through 10-15 favorite movies

In my case I use Low Shelf in PEQ setting [in the speaker setup menu] AFTER calibration - after some fiddling with REW i have gone for 22Hz or 18Hz Q 1.3 and have 3 presets with gains of 3 6 and 9dB respectively -> equals 6 presets [i use 21-27]

Moderate curve +4.5dB at 50Hz vs 1kHz and add 3dB of sub gain as movie setting [different for Music - there I go with +1.5db and reach null poit at 500Hz].

WF - Max Decay control, Max Limiter control and at 27hz first mode, I use pressurisation as from 18Hz now [alternating with 21Hz]

probably silly question, but i'll ask anyway - so long as you apply the same PEQ to all the subs, it doesn't affect WF results, correct? The thing we shouldn't do is apply different peq to each sub?

 

[Fidji]

probably silly question, but i'll ask anyway - so long as you apply the same PEQ to all the subs, it doesn't affect WF results, correct? The thing we shouldn't do is apply different peq to each sub?

yes, think of it as another way of adjusting the target curve. Is just more effective in my case. To be sure you should do it under your first mode frequency,

Use and save each as PEQ Group and then load to all subs. Check with REW afterwards, look at Spectrogram, if you see some issues, than adjust.

 

[OCA]

only "issue" was bit lack of energy below 18Hz

It must be tough having to live with such compromises

 

[Fidji]

It must be tough having to live with such compromises

Oh yes, attending avsforum, trinnov section you feel like somebody arriving to Syndikat-Asphaltfieber with 316d in M Packet ;-). “this is me, John from Texas, I feel my 40 24 inch subs are not having enough punch, I am thinking about adding another 50 of 32 inch, to get real bass extension”

Joking aside - I think 12Hz is good value to set as target for high performance system. Anything below is nice, but not essential.
I tried some experimenting wiht high pass filters for subs - there was significant difference between 15 and 18 and then agian one step further with 12Hz. From 12 to 9Hz - not so much anymore.

 

[Oddball]

Oh yes, attending avsforum, trinnov section you feel like somebody arriving to Syndikat-Asphaltfieber with 316d in M Packet ;-). “this is me, John from Texas, I feel my 40 24 inch subs are not having enough punch, I am thinking about adding another 50 of 32 inch, to get real bass extension”

I think these guys have already lost sense from whatever they are on, and their hearing from the 140dB levels of bass they have been up to for years. What matters is your setup and your limits in how low you want or can go.

 

[Fidji]

I think these guys have already lost sense from whatever they are on, and their hearing from the 140dB levels of bass they have been up to for years. What matters is your setup and your limits in how low you want or can go.

There are several angles to it.

1) waveforming, DBA, SBA and ART - all the sytems that aim for controlled low decay objectively require much more subwoofer real estate. I still remember how I was surprised after having 8x18in subs installed in DBA config. I was expecting bass inferno, as i replaced 7x15in subs, but it subjectively felt as less bass, Half of the output is gone, as rear wall acts as absorber. Also energy is not bouncing around for 1 second with all the resonances, that are usual in standard setups.
2) This is why Pressurization is so important WF feature - it allows lowest bass to be addtiive. Usually 30+Hz every system has abundant energy, what matters is 25Hz and below
3) I had a chance to visit some American HT;s with insulated drywall walls - and you can not keep bass in, and also need much more subs to get to the same result as we get here in Europe with our 30cm reinforced concrete walls [in my case] - gives you 6dB room gain minimum, compared to drywall.

And I think - only more is enough, in terms of bass capabilities - I am not basshead myself, I think my bass preferences go towards clean, controlled and tight, but I also appreciate to have reserve and overkill. Nothing is worse than sub bottoming out, because of missing woofage.

20.000W, 8x18in subs, 32 sqm, feels about appropriate in order to be far from limits of the system.

 

[Oddball]

I

And I think - only more is enough, in terms of bass capabilities - I am not basshead myself, I think my bass preferences go towards clean, controlled and tight, but I also appreciate to have reserve and overkill. Nothing is worse than sub bottoming out, because of missing woofage.

20.000W, 8x18in subs, 32 sqm, feels about appropriate in order to be far from limits of the system.

You are more than a basshead by all traditional standards. The power you note is well in excess of anything needed in such small space. Though, more is generally better if you know how to deal with it, so happy for you to have found your measure.

My measure is what I have - and it is already much more than I need or would want.

 

[OCA]

There are several angles to it.

1) waveforming, DBA, SBA and ART - all the sytems that aim for controlled low decay objectively require much more subwoofer real estate. I still remember how I was surprised after having 8x18in subs installed in DBA config. I was expecting bass inferno, as i replaced 7x15in subs, but it subjectively felt as less bass, Half of the output is gone, as rear wall acts as absorber. Also energy is not bouncing around for 1 second with all the resonances, that are usual in standard setups.
2) This is why Pressurization is so important WF feature - it allows lowest bass to be addtiive. Usually 30+Hz every system has abundant energy, what matters is 25Hz and below
3) I had a chance to visit some American HT;s with insulated drywall walls - and you can not keep bass in, and also need much more subs to get to the same result as we get here in Europe with our 30cm reinforced concrete walls [in my case] - gives you 6dB room gain minimum, compared to drywall.

And I think - only more is enough, in terms of bass capabilities - I am not basshead myself, I think my bass preferences go towards clean, controlled and tight, but I also appreciate to have reserve and overkill. Nothing is worse than sub bottoming out, because of missing woofage.

20.000W, 8x18in subs, 32 sqm, feels about appropriate in order to be far from limits of the system.

You seem to have solved the lack of bass response problem with electrostatics.

 

[Fidji]

My measure is what I have - and it is already much more than I need or would want.

That is, usually, good way to stay happy in life.

You seem to have solved the lack of bass response problem with electrostatics.

Actually my electrostats are hybrids with active bass section, panels get crossed over at around 250Hz. MartinLogan is specialist in hybrid electrostatic speakers. L-R go comfortaby below 20Hz. But still I prefer to leave everything to Waveforming below 80Hz - it just sounds better. Not because ML are bad at bass, but because Waveforming is so much better than anything else.

Curious about the next phase of WF development, which is supposed to be infra-sub integration and/or inclusion of non-sub speakers into Waveforning, similar to ART.

 

[Oddball]

That is, usually, good way to stay happy in life.


Actually my electrostats are hybrids with active bass section, panels get crossed over at around 250Hz. MartinLogan is specialist in hybrid electrostatic speakers. L-R go comfortaby below 20Hz. But still I prefer to leave everything to Waveforming below 80Hz - it just sounds better. Not because ML are bad at bass, but because Waveforming is so much better than anything else.

Curious about the next phase of WF development, which is supposed to be infra-sub integration and/or inclusion of non-sub speakers into Waveforning, similar to ART.

That would be quite something if in the works.