It bears repeating that... however flat the response is in anechoic, once the subs gets in a real room the response shall not be flat.
Maximum SPL and THD are the determinant in subwoofers. Not flatness of FR...
The confusion here is that you're talking about a bunch of different things. If a sub's anechoic FR has a dip at 60hz, you can correct that perfectly with DSP and it does not matter where you're sitting. That's what manufacturers are doing since pretty much every sub has DSP built-in nowadays, and why they're all flat. Subs are omnidirectional so there is no dispersion to account for, they are outputting the same frequency response in all directions by default.I think some are putting too much reliance on DSP to get a perfect response. In reality, if you move your head just a tiny bit, that perfectly flat DSPed response is no longer flat. In fact, it might even be worse. I think it’s important that a sub start out with a relatively flat response.
I guess that theoretically a smaller driver might have a lower SPL point in its dynamic range where FR is flat, but that 10 inch vs 12 inch is not a significant factor in this for competent subs.I don't see how a smaller driver could possibly have any advantage over a larger driver other than physical size (in general - for example, comparing an SVS PB1000 with a PB2000 as opposed to comparing a really good small subwoofer with a cheap larger subwoofer). Larger drivers are more efficient, handle more power and produce less distortion.
Someone should make an application where it reads a folder of, for example, a genre of music and creates FR graphs like the ones in this link. 30Hz+ looks like it at least contains the 'meat' of the bass in the trance and dubstep they analysed (on average anyway, see the 2 graphs):I listen to a lot of electronic music, and I can tell you there is a ton of content far below 30Hz.
I guess that theoretically a smaller driver might have a lower SPL point in its dynamic range where FR is flat, but that 10 inch vs 12 inch is not a significant factor in this for competent subs.
Maybe home/mobile studio 'studio subwoofers' also tend to have smaller drivers to reduce integration/room complications, eg in nearfield.
It would be interesting to compare:
SVS SB-1000 Pro (20Hz - 270 Hz [±3 dB]), 12inch driver - 600USD
Genelec 7040A (30Hz - 90Hz [-6dB]), 6.5inch driver - 1000USD
to see if there was any audible advantages of the Genelec, eg at low volume.
Someone should make an application where it reads a folder of, for example, a genre of music and creates FR graphs like the ones in this link. 30Hz+ looks like it at least contains the 'meat' of the bass in the trance and dubstep they analysed (on average anyway, see the 2 graphs):
https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=1019.0
I'm looking forward to hearing this track, Jon Hopkins - Everything Connected, when I get my first subwoofer in a few weeks. www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-w-XSbVDsI
The confusion here is that you're talking about a bunch of different things. If a sub's anechoic FR has a dip at 60hz, you can correct that perfectly with DSP and it does not matter where you're sitting. That's what manufacturers are doing since pretty much every sub has DSP built-in nowadays, and why they're all flat. Subs are omnidirectional so there is no dispersion to account for, they are outputting the same frequency response in all directions by default.
The "is flat even enjoyable?" issue is a room curve/house curve, which is yet another different thing. If you have a perfectly flat response to start with, it's pretty easy to add a bass boost or some other gentle, shelf filter type adjustment. You don't want a bunch of variation in this, regardless.
The "move your head a tiny bit" issue is because of room modes and other room interactions depending on the frequency. Those change depending on the respective position of the listener and sub. You are absolutely correct that you can't fix that with DSP for different positions by naively EQing a single subwoofer. But ALL subs, no matter their frequency response, will be affected equally by this problem.
There is of course a way to correct subwoofer *in-room* response flat for many listening positions using DSP, but you need at least 2 subwoofers to do it effectively, and 3-4 is better. One can't do it.
IMO the analog Genelec subs are rather pointless, and likely exist mainly for professional studio purchasers where they just want to buy whole matching systems from one vendor.It would be interesting to compare:
SVS SB-1000 Pro (20Hz - 270 Hz [±3 dB]), 12inch driver - 600USD
Genelec 7040A (30Hz - 90Hz [-6dB]), 6.5inch driver - 1000USD
to see if there was any audible advantages of the Genelec, eg at low volume.
This system is sold by @Duke I don't know much about the technical details of the Swarm specifically, based on the article it seems like a relatively simple approach.https://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html
Right now as I walk around my room, the bass sounds great everywhere, so I'm not strongly motivated to experiment at this time. Having all 4 up front looks really nice. But someday I may want to achieve this perfect bass that the author was talking about. How would you recommend setting up 4 subs for best sound quality? Would inverting the phase of one of them actually help like they say in the link?
In what way would the larger sub be inferior at this lower SPL? Are you saying the larger sub wouldn't have a flat frequency response at lower volume levels? If so, where have you seen this happen?
Yes true, sub-30Hz notes and sounds would be a critical element in some music while only being a nice-to-have in most music. Thanks I'm hoping getting a home sub will be a 'revelation' like when I first heard stereo headphones as a teenager or when I got my Genelec 8030s after only ever having budget stereos.Are you referring to the graph that shows the average SPL of each frequency segment over 2 hours of music? It's interesting to see though even if the music only played the lowest octaves for a relatively low percentage of time, it's very important. After experiencing the PB16, I don't see how I could ever be satisfied with any subwoofer that couldn't perform at least to the level of the PB4000. As rare as the ultra low notes are, when they hit, it feels so good. Some people just don't realize what they're missing when they overlook <30Hz.
Enjoy your new sub. You're entering into a world of fun!
I haven't seen it; I was just wondering if I might be missing out on anything (besides balanced i/o) by getting an SB-1000 Pro rather than a Genelec 7040/7050 or Dynaudio 9S.
To use an extreme example, could a heavy 20 inch subwoofer driver play a very low volume male voice (85-155Hz) as well as an 8 inch driver? Maybe it could; I just thought it might need a higher volume threshold or something to perform.
Yes true, sub-30Hz notes and sounds could be a critical element in some music while only being a nice-to-have in most music. Thanks I'm hoping getting a home sub will be a 'revelation' like when I first heard stereo headphones as a teenager or when I got my Genelec 8030s after only ever having budget stereos.
It's a lot of money to add a sub compared to a 2-channel stereo, but eventually reading the stories of what it can add got to me (I've had my Genelec 8030s for about a year).I'd say in a small room, placing an SB-1000 Pro would be a revelation in sound. I added a single subwoofer in a corner of my office, paired with floor standing speakers that reach down to 32Hz but significantly drops off at any lower frequencies. The corner placement did improve a 68Hz null I was measuring before, but there is only so much I can do without significant room treatment. I EQ and use sound absorption foam all over the walls, but it can't help with the bass. I also sit in one place in that room, so I don't have to make compromises for a wider listening position.
Overall, I was able to get the sound to my liking, and the subwoofer is amazing.
I will say that initially I thought it wasn't enough. But, over time, after listening to more music, I found that I kept lowering the gain and changed the slope from 12dB to 24dB. I listen to mostly 60's-present pop/rock, though everything is on the table and my tastes are quite eclectic. I also enjoy bass-heavy artists like Shpongle, Noisia, Black Sun Empire, Grouch, and similar techy stuff where the sub really shines.
"Hypnotize" by Notorious B.I.G. stands out as a good track I was using to test for dialing-in by ear before I checked measurements. The SVS app is wonderful for tweaking by ear. After measuring, I discovered that I had way too much lower bass, but I thought it sounded better. I kept my initial settings at first; though, after a short time I felt the sub-bass was too overwhelming compared to everything else and I kept dialing it back until I landed essentially where I thought it measured the best.
Clearly, with songs that have a significant amount of sub-bass, there is an obvious improvement to me. Also, a few songs that felt like they were missing something that originally made them special to me are awesome again. "Highway to Hell" does not have too much sub-bass, but it has more "oomph" with the kick drum that I fell in love with when I first heard it over huge speakers at a...roller skating rink. I was young, and disco was the rage, so AC/DC was a nice alternative.
...It still amazes me how one sub placed in a corner of the room can make it sound like it is integrated perfectly with my two stereo speakers. I didn't even have to mess around with the phase adjustment.
I haven't seen it; I was just wondering if I might be missing out on anything (besides balanced i/o) by getting an SB-1000 Pro rather than a Genelec 7040/7050 or Dynaudio 9S.
To use an extreme example, could a heavy 20 inch subwoofer driver play a very low volume male voice (85-155Hz) as well as an 8 inch sub driver? Maybe it could; I just thought it might need a higher volume threshold or something to perform evenly.
Yes true, sub-30Hz notes and sounds would be a critical element in some music while only being a nice-to-have in most music. Thanks I'm hoping getting a home sub will be a 'revelation' like when I first heard stereo headphones as a teenager or when I got my Genelec 8030s after only ever having budget stereos.
The one thing that puzzles me about their dual models is that they all costs the same exact price as two of the same-sized solo subwoofers. In one sense that seems reasonable, but the performance of physically separated subwoofers is far superior. It should also be cheaper because shipping is completed in one go rather than two.Monolith is releasing a dual 10 inch subwoofer next month.
Monolith by Monoprice M-210 Dual 10in THX Certified Ultra 1000-Watt Powered Subwoofer - Monoprice.com
Monolith™ by Monoprice™Dual 10" THX® Certified Ultra SubwooferSets the standard for bass output, low distortion, and affordabilityThe Monolith™ Dual 10" THX® Certifwww.monoprice.com
Usually they post measurements, but they are not available yet.
The one thing that puzzles me about their dual models is that they all costs the same exact price as two of the same-sized solo subwoofers. In one sense that seems reasonable, but the performance of physically separated subwoofers is far superior. It should also be cheaper because shipping is completed in one go rather than two.
In that sense I don't understand the draw of the dual models.
The Swarm Subwoofer System
www.audiokinesis.com
... How would you recommend setting up 4 subs for best sound quality? Would inverting the phase of one of them actually help like they say in the link?
This system is sold by @Duke I don't know much about the technical details of the Swarm specifically, based on the article it seems like a relatively simple approach.
Thanks, yes that article puts my mind at ease - it sounds like larger isn't inherently inferior in any way; it just needs a bigger motor design. Changing the momentum of a bigger driver must not be a big issue with standard size subs. Interesting that big can even be more efficient. I will report about my new sub, hopefully in a couple of weeks.I've found the article in the link below enlightening. The sections toward the bottom might relate to some of what we're discussing. I don't think even a 21" driver would have any issue playing 155Hz at any volume but of course this depends on the driver but 155Hz is still relatively low for any subwoofer. When you get into higher frequencies, larger drivers have lower dispersion but you wouldn't worry about this until much, much higher frequencies, far beyond what any subwoofer would be asked to reproduce. There really is no advantage to using a smaller driver unless it is to save space or if for some reason you liked the way it sounded. Bass is really easy to reproduce, so expensive subs really aren't necessary.
Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements
data-bass.com
I look forward to hearing what you say about your new sub. I think you're gonna have so much fun with it.
Well, depends. Not if you just want more output. If you have double the volume, double the driver area, and double the amplifier power, then you'll get +6dB on average, which is the same as stacking two single subs with half those factors. And as mentioned above, sometimes footprint is the real limitation and height doesn't matter.the performance of physically separated subwoofers is far superior.