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Subwoofer Comparison

Sancus

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Something people may not know, but you can use Multi-Sub Optimizer to generate PEQ filters and if your sub has those you can enter them manually and it will work fine. You don't actually need a miniDSP.

I was pretty disappointed with Audyssey(XT32) on 2 subs. It did eliminate a peak, but only by turning into a big null over 40-60hz. Not cool. And this was even worse in 1 of the 3 seats, it didn't even reduce seat-to-seat variation.

Audyssey-Only 1 sub vs 2
1638179399907.png

I'm planning to eventually buy an AVR with Dirac Bass Control, so I didn't really want to buy a miniDSP. Arendal 1723 subs have up to 7 filters each and the ability to set delay in the sub as well, so I figured why not try it out? I bought an RCA splitter so that Audyssey would see the subs as 1, did measurements with Audyssey off, used MSO to make the filters, put them into the subs(using the app) and then ran Audyssey again.

MSO results
5KRd9I7.png

Final Results
1638179316956.png

I did use 8 measurements spread over 3 seats. So if you only wanted one seat perfect the results would be even better. And all with only 2 subs.
 

drfous

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Looking at 2 sealed subs for a small/medium room.

Black Friday/Cyber Monday deals:
Starke SW12 for $421 each
or
SVS SB-1000 for $399? Now sold out.

TIA!
 
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sweetchaos

sweetchaos

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SB-1000 are US$450/ea (not $400) and if you buy 2, use coupon GODUAL21 (you save an additional US$45 for dual subs).
Which brings each down to US$427.5/ea.
Also, I see them in stock. Perhaps SVS re-stocked?

Both subs are good performers for their price, with Starke taking the slight edge in output.
But this comes at the cost of much larger volume (2.3ft^3) vs the SVS (1.4ft^3).
Which means SVS holds it's own ground at 40% smaller form factor.
I gotta give credit to the little buy.

In summary:
Want more output? Starke
Want smaller foot print (40% smaller)? SVS
Looks? Your call.
Function? Your call.
Warranty? I couldn't find any information about Starke Sound. SVS has 5 year.
Want a high pass filter? SVS
I could go on...

Don't you just love my spreadsheet. ;)
 

milan616

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Don't you just love my spreadsheet.

You have no idea ♥

Unrelated aside: I got a blemish price SB-1000 for $350 for my desk, and two friends each got a PB-1000 for $350 (blemish) and $400 (new) from this morning's Cyber Monday releases. It wasn't until after I bought I saw the SB12-NSD for $350 as well but I'm comforting myself by saying I need the few extra inches of legroom under my desk.
 

drfous

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Thanks, SC. I was comparing SVS outlet prices at 0900 ET this morning. I got them in my cart and they were gone by the time I wrote my post and got back over there.

I picked up the Starke. I had their black friday sale in my cart all weekend. 2 subs for $838 delivered. Could do worse.

And yes, I was using your spreadsheet to get me there. Thanks much!!!
 

Somafunk

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Has anyone tested or heard the Dynaudio 18s subwoofer, I ask as I’ve just ordered one to pair with my Dynaudio LYD 48’s.
 

Astrozombie

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IS it possible to be happy with an entry level sub in a small room? I always see these guys with monster subs in a HT but i can't help but think it's overkill. Surely they must be far away from any neighbors or they will be getting in trouble.
I have yet to even dial in mine in my main setup and i'm pretty happy with the oomph for movies.
 

stren

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Yes, I have a jl audio d110 that is surprisingly potent for the size, there have been good reports on the KC62 and the svs 3000 mini which are both small. Yes they won't pressurize a large room but for small rooms it can be plenty.
 

Sancus

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Has anyone tested or heard the Dynaudio 18s subwoofer, I ask as I’ve just ordered one to pair with my Dynaudio LYD 48’s.
2x9" and slightly smaller dimensions than a typical 12" sealed sub tells me this is probably somewhere around an SB-1000 / SB-2000, which is in the spreadsheet. Assuming Dynaudio hasn't fucked anything up(and they better not have at that price).

IS it possible to be happy with an entry level sub in a small room? I always see these guys with monster subs in a HT but i can't help but think it's overkill. Surely they must be far away from any neighbors or they will be getting in trouble.
Subs don't disturb neighbours, volume settings do :) I live in a condo and no complaints so far. Sometimes I hear bass from people ~150ft below in their cars, though!

It's totally up to you. You can always measure and find out(I should start just writing MAFO in replies...) with a few sweeps at louder levels to see when your sub starts compressing in your room. Do EQ it first so the modes don't dominate.

I will say that when you get subs that actually play flat to 20hz or even lower at real SPLs, you feel like reducing your bass 1-2dB because it "fills in" the bottom end and you need less mid-bass.
 

rcstevensonaz

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SB-1000 are US$450/ea (not $400) and if you buy 2, use coupon GODUAL21 (you save an additional US$45 for dual subs).
Thanks for posting info on the SVS Cyber Monday sale. I picked up 2 SB-1000 (White Gloss).

As an FYI, it appears that all models of SB-1000 are back in stock for purchase: $449 (Black Ash) or $499 (Piano Gloss or White Gloss)
 

Chrispy

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IS it possible to be happy with an entry level sub in a small room? I always see these guys with monster subs in a HT but i can't help but think it's overkill. Surely they must be far away from any neighbors or they will be getting in trouble.
I have yet to even dial in mine in my main setup and i'm pretty happy with the oomph for movies.

Some can be :) All depends on your extension and spl goals. Before I had the better subs a smaller sub I had in a small bedroom sounded fine to me....altho now in that same size bedroom have a coupla decent sized subs....can't go back, the old one just wouldn't do it now. I'm an affirmed bassaholic, too. My neighbors don't complain but I don't torture them like that much either. Altho I did have a neighbor (who since moved away, but not for this reason) that once called me from her garden while I watched some silly action flick at high volume to tell me I was ruining her sunny day gardening vibe (about 20 ft away from that part of my house).....but I didn't hear the phone at the time either, found out later when I checked messages :)
 

warthor

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When was the subwoofer room size recommendation created by audioholics? It seems to me that with all the developments in subwoofers there should be a level above "extreme". For example, the Perlisten subwoofer (D215s) can play at 10hz whereas most in the "extreme" category cannot. Only a few subwoofers can do this (i.e., Perlisten, JTR, Funk). Furthermore, these same models play up to 130+ db. My question is: "Should they be lumped into "extreme" with other subwoofers with no additional distinction?" When you buy a JTR you get something more than when you purchase a Monolith (in addition to the "extreme" wallet size reduction). This is not captured in the current rating system.

I also think subwoofers with multiple woofers may have some meaningful additional features such as smoother in-room response. That is less clearly quantified but I while I have the mic I figure I will talk a little bit more.
 

Chrispy

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When was the subwoofer room size recommendation created by audioholics? It seems to me that with all the developments in subwoofers there should be a level above "extreme". For example, the Perlisten subwoofer (D215s) can play at 10hz whereas most in the "extreme" category cannot. Only a few subwoofers can do this (i.e., Perlisten, JTR, Funk). Furthermore, these same models play up to 130+ db. My question is: "Should they be lumped into "extreme" with other subwoofers with no additional distinction?" When you buy a JTR you get something more than when you purchase a Monolith (in addition to the "extreme" wallet size reduction). This is not captured in the current rating system.

I also think subwoofers with multiple woofers may have some meaningful additional features such as smoother in-room response. That is less clearly quantified but I while I have the mic I figure I will talk a little bit more.

10 years ago by a quick look. All the developments? Or just wider choices/performance levels? Don't forget diy either.
 

Sancus

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I also think subwoofers with multiple woofers may have some meaningful additional features such as smoother in-room response.

I think that's only true if the woofers have significant distance separation between them, and even then.... my recent experience measuring subs in my room indicates that even subs of very different size and design(2x13.8" vs 1x12" sealed) measure pretty much the same in any location. There may be small variations, but the big nulls and peaks are in the same place and that's all that really matters. The small variations are trivial to smooth out with EQ, even for multiple seats.

@sweetchaos What about a "footprint" column after volume that's just W x D, ignoring height? I think this is pretty relevant for many people, as the height dimension is often unimportant to fitting something in a room except maybe for aesthetics.
 

warthor

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I think that's only true if the woofers have significant distance separation between them, and even then.... my recent experience measuring subs in my room indicates that even subs of very different size and design(2x13.8" vs 1x12" sealed) measure pretty much the same in any location. There may be small variations, but the big nulls and peaks are in the same place and that's all that really matters. The small variations are trivial to smooth out with EQ, even for multiple seats.
Thanks for that input. I was (erroneously) following the simple rule about more subwoofers makes a smoother response. But the situation is much more complicated than that. I wonder what the benefit of the double-subwoofers are (besides cancelling vibrations in some models)...
 
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sweetchaos

sweetchaos

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Upvote my post, IF you'd like to see @Sancus suggestion added:

What about a "footprint" column after volume that's just W x D, ignoring height? I think this is pretty relevant for many people, as the height dimension is often unimportant to fitting something in a room except maybe for aesthetics.

Thanks.
 

MeZoX

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wouldn't the best subwoofer performance in terms of frequency response , the one that has a positive (or at least a minimal negative) delta between 20Hz and the rest of the frequencies? is there a way to rank subwoofers in the sheet this way ?
 

alex-z

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wouldn't the best subwoofer performance in terms of frequency response , the one that has a positive (or at least a minimal negative) delta between 20Hz and the rest of the frequencies? is there a way to rank subwoofers in the sheet this way ?

No, because you can EQ any subwoofer flat, at a severe cost to output headroom. This is what most modern subwoofers do internally, hence having a large driver and amplifier is crucial. Nobody wants a 6.5" subwoofer that goes flat to 20Hz but is capped to 70dB.

CEA-2010 is a good metric because it shows you more of the raw system performance, which helps you pick something appropriate for your room size and listening volume.
 

Grur

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Edit: Question answered..
 
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sweetchaos

sweetchaos

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Gene just announced a new Bassaholic rating, Maximus! :eek:
1638925722161.png

Gene says details are coming soon.
Very exciting...
Of course, I'll update my spreadsheet to include it. :)

UPDATE:
Great video, where Gene talks about current and future products, with Hobie Sechrest from Monoprice.
1. They are looking into an active version of Encore speakers
2. They are looking to release THX-certified in-ceiling speakers in Q2 2022.
3. Lots of products will be unveiled at CES 2022:
- on-wall
- in-wall
- 5.1 concentric speakers with 8" subwoofer (model 518HT) for $800. satellites will be sold individually as well.
- dual 10" subwoofer
4. Upcoming on-wall speaker, OW-3 Onwall LCR

UPDATE 2:
A topic that comes up all the time:
Are ported subs good for music?
Gene talks to Hobie about this:
Which kills the argument that you need a sealed sub for 'musicality".
A well-designed ported sub (like the Monoprice 16" THX ported sub) will sound musical if the group delay is low enough.

Plus (my added thoughts), you need to EQ the room modes (aka standing waves) which often muddy the sound and cause audiophiles to claim "ported subs are slow, or not musical", when in reality, they haven't taken care of their room correction OR they're using bad-performing ported subs.
 
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