Subwoofer Comparison

[Willem]

I realize that one would need dsp eq to deal with room modes (I use dsp room eq myself), but even so a sub with a drooping response is less performant in an important and challenging part of the spectrum.

 

[Sancus]

It doesn't matter if a subs response droops because you can EQ it to whatever. The limitation is maximum output. Most modern subs are already EQed extremely flat by the manufacturer though, I can't think of any that have shown FR issues at all.

 

[AudioLover73]

Yes, I understand that but though it may not be flat, it could be even, without any crazy peaks or dips. The image below shows the in-room response of one of my PB16s with no outside DSP and no help from the parametric EQ. I crossover at 80Hz, sometimes lower, and for me, that response is awesome without EQ because lower frequencies need more SPL to be as audible. I think some are putting too much reliance on DSP to get a perfect response. In reality, if you move your head just a tiny bit, that perfectly flat DSPed response is no longer flat. In fact, it might even be worse. I think it’s important that a sub start out with a relatively flat response. How often do we see people complain after the DSP takes away the fun bass they enjoyed? I’m just saying that I don’t know if going after a flat response is ideal for enjoyment. It certainly isn’t for the main speakers.

It bears repeating that... however flat the response is in anechoic, once the subs gets in a real room the response shall not be flat.
Maximum SPL and THD are the determinant in subwoofers. Not flatness of FR...

 

[Sancus]

I think some are putting too much reliance on DSP to get a perfect response. In reality, if you move your head just a tiny bit, that perfectly flat DSPed response is no longer flat. In fact, it might even be worse. I think it’s important that a sub start out with a relatively flat response.

The confusion here is that you're talking about a bunch of different things. If a sub's anechoic FR has a dip at 60hz, you can correct that perfectly with DSP and it does not matter where you're sitting. That's what manufacturers are doing since pretty much every sub has DSP built-in nowadays, and why they're all flat. Subs are omnidirectional so there is no dispersion to account for, they are outputting the same frequency response in all directions by default.

The "is flat even enjoyable?" issue is a room curve/house curve, which is yet another different thing. If you have a perfectly flat response to start with, it's pretty easy to add a bass boost or some other gentle, shelf filter type adjustment. You don't want a bunch of variation in this, regardless.

The "move your head a tiny bit" issue is because of room modes and other room interactions depending on the frequency. Those change depending on the respective position of the listener and sub. You are absolutely correct that you can't fix that with DSP for different positions by naively EQing a single subwoofer. But ALL subs, no matter their frequency response, will be affected equally by this problem.

There is of course a way to correct subwoofer *in-room* response flat for many listening positions using DSP, but you need at least 2 subwoofers to do it effectively, and 3-4 is better. One can't do it.

 

[Zeeb]

I don't see how a smaller driver could possibly have any advantage over a larger driver other than physical size (in general - for example, comparing an SVS PB1000 with a PB2000 as opposed to comparing a really good small subwoofer with a cheap larger subwoofer). Larger drivers are more efficient, handle more power and produce less distortion.

I guess that theoretically a smaller driver might have a lower SPL point in its dynamic range where FR is flat, but that 10 inch vs 12 inch is not a significant factor in this for competent subs.

Maybe home/mobile studio 'studio subwoofers' tend to have smaller drivers to reduce integration/room complications, eg in nearfield.

It would be interesting to compare:
SVS SB-1000 Pro (20Hz - 270 Hz [±3 dB]), 12inch driver - 600USD
Genelec 7040A (30Hz - 90Hz [-6dB]), 6.5inch driver - 1000USD

to see if there was any audible advantages of the Genelec, eg at low volume.

I listen to a lot of electronic music, and I can tell you there is a ton of content far below 30Hz.

Someone should make an application where it reads a folder of, for example, a genre of music and creates FR graphs like the ones in this link. 30Hz+ looks like it at least contains the 'meat' of the bass in the trance and dubstep they analysed (on average anyway, see the 2 graphs):
https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=1019.0

I'm looking forward to hearing this track, Jon Hopkins - Everything Connected, when I get my first subwoofer in a few weeks. www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-w-XSbVDsI

 

[AudioLover73]

I'm still trying to understand what you're saying about the smaller sub. In what way would the larger sub be inferior at this lower SPL? Are you saying the larger sub wouldn't have a flat frequency response at lower volume levels? If so, where have you seen this happen?

Are you referring to the graph that shows the average SPL of each frequency segment over 2 hours of music? It's interesting to see though even if the music only played the lowest octaves for a relatively low percentage of time, it's very important. After experiencing the PB16, I don't see how I could ever be satisfied with any subwoofer that couldn't perform at least to the level of the PB4000. As rare as the ultra low notes are, when they hit, it feels so good. Some people just don't realize what they're missing when they overlook <30Hz.

Enjoy your new sub. You're entering into a world of fun!

I guess that theoretically a smaller driver might have a lower SPL point in its dynamic range where FR is flat, but that 10 inch vs 12 inch is not a significant factor in this for competent subs.

Maybe home/mobile studio 'studio subwoofers' also tend to have smaller drivers to reduce integration/room complications, eg in nearfield.

It would be interesting to compare:
SVS SB-1000 Pro (20Hz - 270 Hz [±3 dB]), 12inch driver - 600USD
Genelec 7040A (30Hz - 90Hz [-6dB]), 6.5inch driver - 1000USD

to see if there was any audible advantages of the Genelec, eg at low volume.


Someone should make an application where it reads a folder of, for example, a genre of music and creates FR graphs like the ones in this link. 30Hz+ looks like it at least contains the 'meat' of the bass in the trance and dubstep they analysed (on average anyway, see the 2 graphs):
https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=1019.0

I'm looking forward to hearing this track, Jon Hopkins - Everything Connected, when I get my first subwoofer in a few weeks. www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-w-XSbVDsI

 

[AudioLover73]

Yes, you are right. I am talking about so many things. I need to make sense of my thoughts and present them more concisely.

I completely agree with what you're saying. I've thought about placing my 4 subs throughout the room for best sound quality but I'm not sure how to go about doing it. I recently came across a site promoting 4 subwoofers. They even mentioned something about wiring one of them out of phase. Curious what you think.

AudioKinesis Swarm Subwoofer System - The Absolute Sound

AudioKinesis Swarm Subwoofer System -

www.theabsolutesound.com

The Swarm Subwoofer System

www.audiokinesis.com

Right now as I walk around my room, the bass sounds great everywhere, so I'm not strongly motivated to experiment at this time. Having all 4 up front looks really nice. But someday I may want to achieve this perfect bass that the author was talking about. How would you recommend setting up 4 subs for best sound quality? Would inverting the phase of one of them actually help like they say in the link?

The confusion here is that you're talking about a bunch of different things. If a sub's anechoic FR has a dip at 60hz, you can correct that perfectly with DSP and it does not matter where you're sitting. That's what manufacturers are doing since pretty much every sub has DSP built-in nowadays, and why they're all flat. Subs are omnidirectional so there is no dispersion to account for, they are outputting the same frequency response in all directions by default.

The "is flat even enjoyable?" issue is a room curve/house curve, which is yet another different thing. If you have a perfectly flat response to start with, it's pretty easy to add a bass boost or some other gentle, shelf filter type adjustment. You don't want a bunch of variation in this, regardless.

The "move your head a tiny bit" issue is because of room modes and other room interactions depending on the frequency. Those change depending on the respective position of the listener and sub. You are absolutely correct that you can't fix that with DSP for different positions by naively EQing a single subwoofer. But ALL subs, no matter their frequency response, will be affected equally by this problem.

There is of course a way to correct subwoofer *in-room* response flat for many listening positions using DSP, but you need at least 2 subwoofers to do it effectively, and 3-4 is better. One can't do it.

 

[Sancus]

It would be interesting to compare:
SVS SB-1000 Pro (20Hz - 270 Hz [±3 dB]), 12inch driver - 600USD
Genelec 7040A (30Hz - 90Hz [-6dB]), 6.5inch driver - 1000USD

to see if there was any audible advantages of the Genelec, eg at low volume.

IMO the analog Genelec subs are rather pointless, and likely exist mainly for professional studio purchasers where they just want to buy whole matching systems from one vendor.

The SAM subs are different as GLM offers perfect integration with one click there, which is very convenient for stereo setups with 1 or 2 subs. But it can't do true bass managed multi-sub very well. That is not a feature that studios tend to be interested in, for various reasons.

https://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html
Right now as I walk around my room, the bass sounds great everywhere, so I'm not strongly motivated to experiment at this time. Having all 4 up front looks really nice. But someday I may want to achieve this perfect bass that the author was talking about. How would you recommend setting up 4 subs for best sound quality? Would inverting the phase of one of them actually help like they say in the link?

This system is sold by @Duke I don't know much about the technical details of the Swarm specifically, based on the article it seems like a relatively simple approach.

The optimal placement of 4 subs in a normal rectangular room is typically in the corners, though there are other options like this. If you are trying to squeeze the most perfect bass out of your room and subs, then I would recommend Multi-Sub Optimizer, which requires the ability to set delay, gain, and PEQs for each sub independently(most people use a mini-DSP for this) along with a bass managed signal. I achieved pretty great results even with only 2 subs using that software.

Honestly though, 4 subs should tend to do a fairly good job even without a lot of attention to the DSP side of things. It's more important if you are trying to achieve good response over multiple rows of seating.

 

[Zeeb]

In what way would the larger sub be inferior at this lower SPL? Are you saying the larger sub wouldn't have a flat frequency response at lower volume levels? If so, where have you seen this happen?

I haven't seen it; I was just wondering if I might be missing out on anything (besides balanced i/o) by getting an SB-1000 Pro rather than a Genelec 7040/7050 or Dynaudio 9S.

To use an extreme example, could a heavy 20 inch subwoofer driver play a very low volume male voice (85-155Hz) as well as an 8 inch sub driver? Maybe it could; I just thought it might need a higher volume threshold or something to perform evenly.

Are you referring to the graph that shows the average SPL of each frequency segment over 2 hours of music? It's interesting to see though even if the music only played the lowest octaves for a relatively low percentage of time, it's very important. After experiencing the PB16, I don't see how I could ever be satisfied with any subwoofer that couldn't perform at least to the level of the PB4000. As rare as the ultra low notes are, when they hit, it feels so good. Some people just don't realize what they're missing when they overlook <30Hz.

Enjoy your new sub. You're entering into a world of fun!

Yes true, sub-30Hz notes and sounds would be a critical element in some music while only being a nice-to-have in most music. Thanks I'm hoping getting a home sub will be a 'revelation' like when I first heard stereo headphones as a teenager or when I got my Genelec 8030s after only ever having budget stereos.

 

[sonitus mirus]

I haven't seen it; I was just wondering if I might be missing out on anything (besides balanced i/o) by getting an SB-1000 Pro rather than a Genelec 7040/7050 or Dynaudio 9S.

To use an extreme example, could a heavy 20 inch subwoofer driver play a very low volume male voice (85-155Hz) as well as an 8 inch driver? Maybe it could; I just thought it might need a higher volume threshold or something to perform.


Yes true, sub-30Hz notes and sounds could be a critical element in some music while only being a nice-to-have in most music. Thanks I'm hoping getting a home sub will be a 'revelation' like when I first heard stereo headphones as a teenager or when I got my Genelec 8030s after only ever having budget stereos.

I'd say in a small room, placing an SB-1000 Pro would be a revelation in sound. I added a single subwoofer in a corner of my office, paired with floor standing speakers that reach down to 32Hz but significantly drops off at any lower frequencies. The corner placement did improve a 68Hz null I was measuring before, but there is only so much I can do without significant room treatment. I EQ and use sound absorption foam all over the walls, but it can't help with the bass. I also sit in one place in that room, so I don't have to make compromises for a wider listening position.

Overall, I was able to get the sound to my liking, and the subwoofer is amazing.

I will say that initially I thought it wasn't enough. But, over time, after listening to more music, I found that I kept lowering the gain and changed the slope from 12dB to 24dB. I listen to mostly 60's-present pop/rock, though everything is on the table and my tastes are quite eclectic. I also enjoy bass-heavy artists like Shpongle, Noisia, Black Sun Empire, Grouch, and similar techy stuff where the sub really shines.

"Hypnotize" by Notorious B.I.G. stands out as a good track I was using to test for dialing-in by ear before I checked measurements. The SVS app is wonderful for tweaking by ear. After measuring, I discovered that I had way too much lower bass, but I thought it sounded better. I kept my initial settings at first; though, after a short time I felt the sub-bass was too overwhelming compared to everything else and I kept dialing it back until I landed essentially where I thought it measured the best.

Clearly, with songs that have a significant amount of sub-bass, there is an obvious improvement to me. Also, a few songs that felt like they were missing something that originally made them special to me are awesome again. "Highway to Hell" does not have too much sub-bass, but it has more "oomph" with the kick drum that I fell in love with when I first heard it over huge speakers at a...roller skating rink. I was young, and disco was the rage, so AC/DC was a nice alternative.

 

[Zeeb]

I'd say in a small room, placing an SB-1000 Pro would be a revelation in sound. I added a single subwoofer in a corner of my office, paired with floor standing speakers that reach down to 32Hz but significantly drops off at any lower frequencies. The corner placement did improve a 68Hz null I was measuring before, but there is only so much I can do without significant room treatment. I EQ and use sound absorption foam all over the walls, but it can't help with the bass. I also sit in one place in that room, so I don't have to make compromises for a wider listening position.

Overall, I was able to get the sound to my liking, and the subwoofer is amazing.

I will say that initially I thought it wasn't enough. But, over time, after listening to more music, I found that I kept lowering the gain and changed the slope from 12dB to 24dB. I listen to mostly 60's-present pop/rock, though everything is on the table and my tastes are quite eclectic. I also enjoy bass-heavy artists like Shpongle, Noisia, Black Sun Empire, Grouch, and similar techy stuff where the sub really shines.

"Hypnotize" by Notorious B.I.G. stands out as a good track I was using to test for dialing-in by ear before I checked measurements. The SVS app is wonderful for tweaking by ear. After measuring, I discovered that I had way too much lower bass, but I thought it sounded better. I kept my initial settings at first; though, after a short time I felt the sub-bass was too overwhelming compared to everything else and I kept dialing it back until I landed essentially where I thought it measured the best.

Clearly, with songs that have a significant amount of sub-bass, there is an obvious improvement to me. Also, a few songs that felt like they were missing something that originally made them special to me are awesome again. "Highway to Hell" does not have too much sub-bass, but it has more "oomph" with the kick drum that I fell in love with when I first heard it over huge speakers at a...roller skating rink. I was young, and disco was the rage, so AC/DC was a nice alternative.

It's a lot of money to add a sub compared to a 2-channel stereo, but eventually reading the stories of what it can add got to me (I've had my Genelec 8030s for about a year).

I'll probably end up dialling the sub back as well to where it 'disappears'. Then after getting used to that I can try turning off the sub to get a more sophisticated view of what it adds. I will try some of these music/test track suggestions, thanks.

The SVS app seems especially important if you don't have external DSP/crossover. It would be perfect if they added a high-pass filter on their subs' main speaker outputs which had similar app adjustments to the low-pass (crossover, PEQ, delay etc.). They could 'cut the grass' of companies like miniDSP if they did that. You'd then only need a measurement microphone to do most stuff.

 

[sonitus mirus]

I do try to make this sub disappear as well, as I was looking to integrate the sub for stereo music listening in the room it was in. I wanted to extend the bass a bit lower, and it seems to have done what I was hoping it would. I have set up a preset on the SVS app that is essentially as quiet as it can be without being powered off completely, and I can sit at my listening spot and quickly change from my usable preset to the near-silent preset. I can hear a difference, but it can be subtle depending on the music and volume level. Rush and Soundgarden are good artists to see subtle differences in action with my particular setup, as both have good bass, but not too much heavy sub-bass like in hip-hop or techno styles. (forgive me for not using correct music genres)

It still amazes me how one sub placed in a corner of the room can make it sound like it is integrated perfectly with my two stereo speakers. I didn't even have to mess around with the phase adjustment.

 

[AudioLover73]

I feel like I can still tell that a sub is in the corner even if it's crossed over at 80Hz or slightly lower. When I added another sub to the other corner, it felt like I could tell that side was louder for a while. Then later it felt normal again. I think our brains allow us to get used to the way it sounds and makes it seem normal to us. I know that when I first fired up my corner sub, it felt like it was uneven. If I ever had to use just one sub, I'd put it closer to the middle, between the two speakers ideally. This way it can't draw the stereo image in either direction no matter how high it's crossed-over.

...It still amazes me how one sub placed in a corner of the room can make it sound like it is integrated perfectly with my two stereo speakers. I didn't even have to mess around with the phase adjustment.

 

[AudioLover73]

I've found the article in the link below enlightening. The sections toward the bottom might relate to some of what we're discussing. I don't think even a 21" driver would have any issue playing 155Hz at any volume but of course this depends on the driver but 155Hz is still relatively low for any subwoofer. When you get into higher frequencies, larger drivers have lower dispersion but you wouldn't worry about this until much, much higher frequencies, far beyond what any subwoofer would be asked to reproduce. There really is no advantage to using a smaller driver unless it is to save space or if for some reason you liked the way it sounded. Bass is really easy to reproduce, so expensive subs really aren't necessary.

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements

data-bass.com

I look forward to hearing what you say about your new sub. I think you're gonna have so much fun with it.

I haven't seen it; I was just wondering if I might be missing out on anything (besides balanced i/o) by getting an SB-1000 Pro rather than a Genelec 7040/7050 or Dynaudio 9S.

To use an extreme example, could a heavy 20 inch subwoofer driver play a very low volume male voice (85-155Hz) as well as an 8 inch sub driver? Maybe it could; I just thought it might need a higher volume threshold or something to perform evenly.


Yes true, sub-30Hz notes and sounds would be a critical element in some music while only being a nice-to-have in most music. Thanks I'm hoping getting a home sub will be a 'revelation' like when I first heard stereo headphones as a teenager or when I got my Genelec 8030s after only ever having budget stereos.

 

[warthor]

Monolith is releasing a dual 10 inch subwoofer next month.

Monolith by Monoprice M-210 Dual 10in THX Certified Ultra 1000-Watt Powered Subwoofer - Monoprice.com

Monolith™ by Monoprice™Dual 10" THX® Certified Ultra SubwooferSets the standard for bass output, low distortion, and affordabilityThe Monolith™ Dual 10" THX® Certif

www.monoprice.com

Usually they post measurements, but they are not available yet.

 

[warthor]

Monolith is releasing a dual 10 inch subwoofer next month.

Monolith by Monoprice M-210 Dual 10in THX Certified Ultra 1000-Watt Powered Subwoofer - Monoprice.com

Monolith™ by Monoprice™Dual 10" THX® Certified Ultra SubwooferSets the standard for bass output, low distortion, and affordabilityThe Monolith™ Dual 10" THX® Certif

www.monoprice.com

Usually they post measurements, but they are not available yet.

The one thing that puzzles me about their dual models is that they all costs the same exact price as two of the same-sized solo subwoofers. In one sense that seems reasonable, but the performance of physically separated subwoofers is far superior. It should also be cheaper because shipping is completed in one go rather than two.

In that sense I don't understand the draw of the dual models.

 

[stren]

The one thing that puzzles me about their dual models is that they all costs the same exact price as two of the same-sized solo subwoofers. In one sense that seems reasonable, but the performance of physically separated subwoofers is far superior. It should also be cheaper because shipping is completed in one go rather than two.

In that sense I don't understand the draw of the dual models.

more output per footprint. Most people are not limited in height above the sub but may be limited in spaces to put subs. The main reason against duals IMO is just that they are not super nice to look at. But yeah, kind a surprised with a dual 10" model, still it's always nice to have options.

 

[Duke]

The Swarm Subwoofer System

www.audiokinesis.com

... How would you recommend setting up 4 subs for best sound quality? Would inverting the phase of one of them actually help like they say in the link?

I suggest several different placement strategies to customers, including one of Todd Welti's symmetrical configurations, but in most cases an asymmetrical configuration is more practical.

The general idea with an asymmetrical configuration is to introduce as much de-correlation as is reasonably feasible. De-correlation in the bass region (due to greater modal density) is one of the benefits of having a large room, and a distributed multi-sub system aspires to accomplish roughly the same thing in a much smaller rooom. So we might place one sub in a front corner, one sub along each of the walls "opposite" that corner, and the fourth sub along one of the other walls (credit to Earl Geddes for this configuration). I suggest spreading the individual subs as far apart as is feasible, and that each of the three subs not in a corner be positioned a different distance from its nearest corner. In most cases I have found that inverting the polarity of one of the subs - usually the one farthest from the main speakers - tends to improve the smoothness (and "smooth" bass = "fast" bass), but if it's a large room, or open into other rooms, then reversing the polarity of that one sub might not be beneficial.

This system is sold by @Duke I don't know much about the technical details of the Swarm specifically, based on the article it seems like a relatively simple approach.

It is.

The four individual subs are passive and are normally driven by a single amp. The native response of the vented boxes is the approximate inverse of "typical" room gain due to boundary reinforcement (down to about 20 Hz), as this response could be achieved without EQ, whereas sealed boxes would have typically required EQ. In rooms which have a lot of boundary reinforcement, the port on one or more of the individual Swarm subs can be plugged. In my room three of the four subs have the port plugged. The amplifier has a single band of parametric EQ (analog, so there's no latency), in case there's still a frequency region with a problem.

 

[Zeeb]

I've found the article in the link below enlightening. The sections toward the bottom might relate to some of what we're discussing. I don't think even a 21" driver would have any issue playing 155Hz at any volume but of course this depends on the driver but 155Hz is still relatively low for any subwoofer. When you get into higher frequencies, larger drivers have lower dispersion but you wouldn't worry about this until much, much higher frequencies, far beyond what any subwoofer would be asked to reproduce. There really is no advantage to using a smaller driver unless it is to save space or if for some reason you liked the way it sounded. Bass is really easy to reproduce, so expensive subs really aren't necessary.

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements

data-bass.com

I look forward to hearing what you say about your new sub. I think you're gonna have so much fun with it.

Thanks, yes that article puts my mind at ease - it sounds like larger isn't inherently inferior in any way; it just needs a bigger motor design. Changing the momentum of a bigger driver must not be a big issue with standard size subs. Interesting that big can even be more efficient. I will report about my new sub, hopefully in a couple of weeks.

 

[Sancus]

the performance of physically separated subwoofers is far superior.

Well, depends. Not if you just want more output. If you have double the volume, double the driver area, and double the amplifier power, then you'll get +6dB on average, which is the same as stacking two single subs with half those factors. And as mentioned above, sometimes footprint is the real limitation and height doesn't matter.

Of course, stacking/dual subs only increase output, they don't help smooth bass like independently located subs. These things are best for dedicated HT rooms where you already planned to put 3 or 4 subs in corners or along walls and you just want more SPL.