Subwoofer Comparison

[BoredErica]

Bought Rythmik f12se in white w/ xlr3 today. The xlr supply is so insanely tight right now it went from default to $50 upcharge to being totally out of stock soon after restock and no restock until end of March or start of April apparently. Paying $580 or so for white paint + XLR leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Question: I asked this in another thread but got no responses. Somebody brought up the length of halfwavelength of crossover frequency and how that limits how far the sub can be placed from the listener due to localization problems. Is this a thing? My Google search is turning up a lot of gibberish.

 

[thulle]

Bought Rythmik f12se in white w/ xlr3 today. The xlr supply is so insanely tight right now it went from default to $50 upcharge to being totally out of stock soon after restock and no restock until end of March or start of April apparently. Paying $580 or so for white paint + XLR leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Question: I asked this in another thread but got no responses. Somebody brought up the length of halfwavelength of crossover frequency and how that limits how far the sub can be placed from the listener due to localization problems. Is this a thing? My Google search is turning up a lot of gibberish.

Seems reasonable, if you don't have some device/source that can delay the signal to the main speakers, a subwoofer might become 180° out of phase with the sound from the main speakers and thus cancel them. At 100 Hz and 340 m/s this would end up as a difference of travel length of 1.7m. minidsp / home theatre receivers and the like usually have settings for the delay between speakers in distance or time so they end up at your listening position in sync.

edit: not sure this would be a localization issue rather than a frequency response issue though, but I'm a bit too tired to think it through.
Personally I have two speakers on my desktop, and one subwoofer by each wall to either side of me, for a total of two. Even if I'm using a minidsp to fix the delay, raising the crossover frequency from 80 Hz to 100 Hz shifts how I perceive the sound so that a sound fully panned to the right (for example) starts to sound like it's coming from slightly to the right of the right speaker. I assume I've crossed the frequency where I with this particular setup start to become able to localize the subs. But, as time delay is applied, this is due to the large angle between speakers and subwoofers, and what frequencies this particular humanoid manages to start to localize the direction of incoming sounds.

edit2: looking up your sub it has this nifty phase delay control, with some instructions here https://web.archive.org/web/20190807211927/https://www.rythmikaudio.com/phase3.html
this thread also popped up: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/subwoofer-time-alignment.9575/

 

[dominikz]

Question: I asked this in another thread but got no responses. Somebody brought up the length of halfwavelength of crossover frequency and how that limits how far the sub can be placed from the listener due to localization problems. Is this a thing? My Google search is turning up a lot of gibberish

As far as my understanding of the topic goes, frequencies below a certain low frequency threshold are in general not localizable by the human hearing system. The typical 80Hz crossover point was reportedly chosen as a pretty safe point well below this threshold.
So IMHO as long as you keep a reasonably low crossover point and manage to align delays/phase and gain to get a smooth measured frequency response at the listening position there should be no issues with sub localization, regardless of subwoofer location.

Just try to avoid sympathetic furniture rattles caused by the sub, as these will typically be easily localizable.

I'm personally not aware that evidence of corelation between subwoofer localizability and crossover point wavelenght vs mains-sub distance has been demonstrated in research so far. If such research exists I'd be very interested to give it a read!

 

[Bill Brown]

As far as my understanding of the topic goes, frequencies below a certain low frequency threshold are in general not localizable by the human hearing system. The typical 80Hz crossover point was reportedly chosen as a pretty safe point well below this threshold.
So IMHO as long as you keep a reasonably low crossover point and manage to align delays/phase and gain to get a smooth measured frequency response at the listening position there should be no issues with sub localization, regardless of subwoofer location.

Just try to avoid sympathetic furniture rattles caused by the sub, as these will typically be easily localizable. (And rattles from the sub cabinet, etc.)

I'm personally not aware that evidence of corelation between subwoofer localizability and crossover point wavelenght vs mains-sub distance has been demonstrated in research so far. If such research exists I'd be very interested to give it a read!

Great post. I largely agree, especially with the bolded text.

Bill

 

[raistlin65]

The xlr supply is so insanely tight right now it went from default to $50 upcharge to being totally out of stock soon after restock and no restock until end of March or start of April apparently.

Just so people know, this is not necessarily a pandemic supply chain thing. Rythmik has always been this way about stock on their subwoofers. With some models going out of stock for months at a time.

 

[BoredErica]

As far as my understanding of the topic goes, frequencies below a certain low frequency threshold are in general not localizable by the human hearing system. The typical 80Hz crossover point was reportedly chosen as a pretty safe point well below this threshold.
So IMHO as long as you keep a reasonably low crossover point and manage to align delays/phase and gain to get a smooth measured frequency response at the listening position there should be no issues with sub localization, regardless of subwoofer location.

Just try to avoid sympathetic furniture rattles caused by the sub, as these will typically be easily localizable.

I'm personally not aware that evidence of corelation between subwoofer localizability and crossover point wavelenght vs mains-sub distance has been demonstrated in research so far. If such research exists I'd be very interested to give it a read!

Seems reasonable, if you don't have some device/source that can delay the signal to the main speakers, a subwoofer might become 180° out of phase with the sound from the main speakers and thus cancel them. At 100 Hz and 340 m/s this would end up as a difference of travel length of 1.7m. minidsp / home theatre receivers and the like usually have settings for the delay between speakers in distance or time so they end up at your listening position in sync.

edit: not sure this would be a localization issue rather than a frequency response issue though, but I'm a bit too tired to think it through.
Personally I have two speakers on my desktop, and one subwoofer by each wall to either side of me, for a total of two. Even if I'm using a minidsp to fix the delay, raising the crossover frequency from 80 Hz to 100 Hz shifts how I perceive the sound so that a sound fully panned to the right (for example) starts to sound like it's coming from slightly to the right of the right speaker. I assume I've crossed the frequency where I with this particular setup start to become able to localize the subs. But, as time delay is applied, this is due to the large angle between speakers and subwoofers, and what frequencies this particular humanoid manages to start to localize the direction of incoming sounds.

edit2: looking up your sub it has this nifty phase delay control, with some instructions here https://web.archive.org/web/20190807211927/https://www.rythmikaudio.com/phase3.html
this thread also popped up: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/subwoofer-time-alignment.9575/

I think I read their post incorrectly:

They were talking about two seperate things... low crossover frequencies to avoid localization issues. Then in a seperate point talking about half wavelength of crossover frequency but that's not related to the localization issues even though the sentence directly follows it.

So the issue is just a matter of FR then. So I should be fine for 1 listening position in a room with only 1 sub with room EQ.

Just so people know, this is not necessarily a pandemic supply chain thing. Rythmik has always been this way about stock on their subwoofers. With some models going out of stock for months at a time.

I vaguely recall f12se being below $1000 only a few months ago. It was $1189+$50 few days ago, now $1259+$50. Those prices are going up, up, up.

I am worried about ground loop issues because I had a lot of them with my previous speakers using this same PC so I want balanced everything. So SVS is out. Monolith is ported only (piano black is +$200), Hsu is kind of ugly imo (but economical). Rythmik f12se has me paying so much over L12 for XLR my brain is going to short circuit.

XLR3's not going back in stock until end of March or April btw. And with such a long ETA, if you want one better get it now otherwise it might only come in stock on the webpage for a short while before they get all snatched up.

 

[raistlin65]

I vaguely recall f12se being below $1000 only a few months ago. It was $1189+$50 few days ago, now $1259+$50. Those prices are going up, up, up.

I don't know about the current pricing.

But for many, many years, Rythmik has had stock issues where popular items would go out of stock and not be available for a few months.

And I understand. They are a small boutique company. They can't necessarily carry a ton of inventory given all of the products they have.

 

[Jshaw81]

Thanks, SC. I was comparing SVS outlet prices at 0900 ET this morning. I got them in my cart and they were gone by the time I wrote my post and got back over there.

I picked up the Starke. I had their black friday sale in my cart all weekend. 2 subs for $838 delivered. Could do worse.

And yes, I was using your spreadsheet to get me there. Thanks much!!!

How do you like the Starke subs?? I have two SW-15s on the way. I figure for their price, they should be hard to beat based on their specs.

 

[liuxuan]

Hello, I am from China, subwoofer, looked at the building form, very professional, thanks for sharing, hope testing institutions to test as much as possible without data subwoofer, get more fans. Thank you very much.

 

[carmico]

hi there

i am looking for a Sub to pair with my iLoud MTMs White Edition , so preferably in White color to match them

i'm in Europe, so lot of models that are in the USA market here are not available

budget is around 300 euros , till now i am oriented in Canton Sub 601 (sealed) €300 or Canton Sub 8.4 (passive radiator) €350

the room is small, 13mq (420cm x 310cm)

gonna use 99% for Music playing , i don't like the Sub shakes the room, don't like muddy bass , just want tight clean precise bass to free up my MTMs from the bass work so they shine even more

Source is Mac Mini M1 and as DAC/preamp i am using an iFi Zen DAC v2 , balanced out 4.4 to XLR for the MTMs , and the RCA unbalanced output gonna use it for the sub setting the MTMs dsp cutted a 80hz that is possible with the last firmware

is there a better sub or solution for this money ?

 

[Berwhale]

hi there

i am looking for a Sub to pair with my iLoud MTMs White Edition , so preferably in White color to match them

i'm in Europe, so lot of models that are in the USA market here are not available

budget is around 300 euros , till now i am oriented in Canton Sub 601 (sealed) €300 or Canton Sub 8.4 (passive radiator) €350

the room is small, 13mq (420cm x 310cm)

gonna use 99% for Music playing , i don't like the Sub shakes the room, don't like muddy bass , just want tight clean precise bass to free up my MTMs from the bass work so they shine even more

Source is Mac Mini M1 and as DAC/preamp i am using an iFi Zen DAC v2 , balanced out 4.4 to XLR for the MTMs , and the RCA unbalanced output gonna use it for the sub setting the MTMs dsp cutted a 80hz that is possible with the last firmware

is there a better sub or solution for this money ?

I have my MTMs paired with a PreSonus Sub8. The benefit of using a 'studio sub' like the Sub8 (rather than a consumer/'AV' one) is that it's got a built-in crossover with high-pass for the main speakers. It also has balanced inputs and outputs.

My signal chain is...

PC -> Topping EX5 --balanced connection--> Presonus Sub8 (low passed at 80Hz) --balanced connection--> iLoud MTMs (signal from Sub8 is high passed at 80Hz and the MTMs are also set to 80Hz which is a feature added with the latest firmware - see bottom of the page here)

One of the downsides of a 'studio sub' is that they are less like to come in white. However, since it's probably going to sit on the floor, under your desk, you might want to re-consider if white is the right colour (white is going to show marks much more than black).

 

[5meohd]

I saw a post above about needing balanced.. To anyone unfamiliar, I recommend grabbing some Rane BB22 units on eBay. Great for this. Exactly what I plan to do.

On to my question. First of all, thank you for the spreadsheet! Wow. What a wonderful resource.

I'm pretty sure that I have it narrowed down to the SVS SB-1000 Pro based on my readings, but I see some real experts around here. My purpose is for my studio where I sequence, record, mix and master electronic music. I use 1st generation Genelec 8030a monitors and also JBL LSR 305 as secondary option. I plan to use a miniDSP with Dirac to time align 4 corner placed subwoofers to the mains. I'm fairly certain the SB-1000 will keep up fine with the Genelec and I'm more than certain this well enough SPL for the temporary 11'x11'x8' room we are setting up in. That being said, I want to buy the subs that will last me for the long haul, and I plan to eventually step up to Neumann KH310 monitors. Would the SB-1000 Pro keep up with KH310? I imagine the room size creeping up to maybe double that length once we finally buy a house.

I think I just need to look at the Frequency response at crossover of both the sub and the main and make sure the sub is greater than or equal to, right? The variable being what happens with room gain and using the subs as active mode treatment.

 

[TurtlePaul]

I'm pretty sure that I have it narrowed down to the SVS SB-1000 Pro based on my readings, but I see some real experts around here. My purpose is for my studio where I sequence, record, mix and master electronic music. I use 1st generation Genelec 8030a monitors and also JBL LSR 305 as secondary option. I plan to use a miniDSP with Dirac to time align 4 corner placed subwoofers to the mains. I'm fairly certain the SB-1000 will keep up fine with the Genelec and I'm more than certain this well enough SPL for the temporary 11'x11'x8' room we are setting up in. That being said, I want to buy the subs that will last me for the long haul, and I plan to eventually step up to Neumann KH310 monitors. Would the SB-1000 Pro keep up with KH310? I imagine the room size creeping up to maybe double that length once we finally buy a house.

If it were me, I would save the money on the MiniDSP and SB-1000s, and instead when you get the KH310, use the money to buy 2x KH750 which have built in DSP and KH310 crossover settings.

 

[5meohd]

If it were me, I would save the money on the MiniDSP and SB-1000s, and instead when you get the KH310, use the money to buy 2x KH750 which have built in DSP and KH310 crossover settings.

I'm curious why you would do that. I'm fairly convinced of the research done at Harmon. The 4 corner sub placement should work quite well. My Genelecs are totally acceptable, especially when crossed over at 80Hz. Of course the 310s will be a welcome upgrade, but 2 x 750s don't seem to be able to match 4 x SB 1000 pros.

2 x 750 = $3,300
4 x 1000 + Dirac 88C = $3,350

Unless I'm missing something, which is possible!

 

[TurtlePaul]

I'm curious why you would do that. I'm fairly convinced of the research done at Harmon. The 4 corner sub placement should work quite well. My Genelecs are totally acceptable, especially when crossed over at 80Hz. Of course the 310s will be a welcome upgrade, but 2 x 750s don't seem to be able to match 4 x SB 1000 pros.

2 x 750 = $3,300
4 x 1000 + Dirac 88C = $3,350

Unless I'm missing something, which is possible!

I think the low end extension is a little better on the KH 750 at 18 hz vs. 25 hz. Also, primarily I would just expect a nicer fit and finish and ease of use of the matching system - although I note that several people don't like the Neumann MA-1 equalization software. Don't forget to add the $250 MA-1 kit to the Neumann price.

 

[pablolie]

I'll spoil the part here and openly state I have no need for 20Hz (or even less) extension (and nor I assume does my neighbor as I live in a California townhouse :-D). I don't listen to organ concertos, I don't need to hear movie FX more than I do, and I don't want to mate with a blue whale. :-D

 

[sweetchaos]

SVS is having its President's Day Outlet sale.

As of today, the following subs can now be purchased for a limited time (last time they were available during Christmas sale):
SB-1000 for $450
PB-1000 for $500
SB-2000 for $600

I've added special notes about them in the spreadsheet.

 

[sweetchaos]

Let's celebrate:

A little over a year ago, I had this crazy idea to create a simple spreadsheet to compare various subwoofers. Little did I know how much effort it would take, but I wanted to take on the challenge. There were about a dozen times when I wanted to abandon the project. The idea of adding all known subwoofers was just incomprehensible. Nevertheless, I launched the project here on ASR, since I saw this place as the best source of objective data on the internet.

1 year ago I posted the 'subwoofer comparison' spreadsheet with the following data:

102 manufacturers (unique), 690 models (all, non-unique), 562 models (unique), 274 models with CEA-2010-A data (all, non-unique).

Today, 1 year later, here's how much I expanded it.

295 manufacturers (unique), 2011 models (all, non-unique), 1810 models (unique), 409 models with CEA-2010-A data (all, non-unique).

This shows that I expanded the number of subwoofers to about 2-4x more than I originally had.

In the beginning, I've set up a bit.ly link to track how many people click on it, since I'm able to see some basic analytics. Here it is:

This shows that the link was clicked on 14921 times since the beginning. That's an average of 41 clicks per day.

In the last month, there were 1462 clicks, and 42% came from USA, 7% came from Canada, 6% came from Germany, and the rest 44% came from other countries.

Also, this thread already has 456 replies and was viewed 126,000 times. That's about 345 views per day.

All of this information just blows my mind.
I didn't expect this project to take off this much.

At the end of the day, all I want for everyone is...

Now, go ahead and enjoy your subwoofer(s).

Best,
@sweetchaos

 

[NORTH]

I'll spoil the part here and openly state I have no need for 20Hz (or even less) extension (and nor I assume does my neighbor as I live in a California townhouse :-D). I don't listen to organ concertos, I don't need to hear movie FX more than I do, and I don't want to mate with a blue whale. :-D

living in an apartment myself i really appreciate the apartment settings on the Kef KC62, late night listening i can still get satisfying low end without feeling it in the walls. now, during the day? Well, it will get the doors rattling if i want it to haha. If i had a full scale 12" sub, yeah, probably would have a letter in my door within a week

 

[pozz]

I think the low end extension is a little better on the KH 750 at 18 hz vs. 25 hz. Also, primarily I would just expect a nicer fit and finish and ease of use of the matching system - although I note that several people don't like the Neumann MA-1 equalization software. Don't forget to add the $250 MA-1 kit to the Neumann price.

The KH750 is fairly limited in SPL below 40Hz. It's an expensive proposition, although for ease of integration hard to beat.

Neumann KH 750 DSP – Subwoofer mit DSP-System im Test

Mit dem KH 750 DSP bringt der Berliner Hersteller Neumann seinen ersten Subwoofer mit integriertem DSP-System auf den Markt. Streng nach der Devise »Was lange währt, wird endlich gut« verfügt der neue Sub über einige Besonderheiten und Alleinstellungsmerkmale, die hier etwas näher betrachtet...

www.soundandrecording.de

Recently posted about the choice here (paragraph at the end): https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...log-neumann-monitors.6415/page-4#post-1097387