Serious Question: How can Op Amp rolling improve the sound of an already well measuring device? Are that many confused? (Master Thread)

[antcollinet]

On OP-Amps and Op-amp rolling

Another contentious topic. Manufacturers of DACs and Amps often socket op-amps to allow people to swap them with different types, with the aim of improving the sound - or getting a different “sound signature” (Whatever that might mean to you). We get it. It’s attractive to think that for a small outlay of a few $£€ you can play around and tweak the sound of your DAC or amplifier for the better.



However:

The consensus amongst most qualified engineers on this site, based on understanding how op amps work at the engineering level, and backed up by measurements - is that swapping op amps is a pointless waste of time and money. At best it will make no audible difference, at worst it might destabilise an amp and cause it to oscillate.

People might think they are hearing real differences but this will almost certainly be because they are not testing blind (not typically possible when swapping op amps) and are hearing the effect of perceptive bias. Alternatively they may be hearing the effect of a destabilised amp oscillating. This is never a good thing.

Here is a thread with the test results given of numerous op-amps being swapped in a device. Net result - no audible improvements, some dramatic reductions in performance.

Fosi Audio V3 op-amp rolling, has anyone tried it? Snake oil? Or are there actual differences?

A plastic cup holds water. A glass looks better, has better specs in certain areas... but still it just needs to hold water, which it does fine be it crystal, Ikea glass or plastic. And sometimes the "worse" component, a plastic cup, is just what was specified for the job and lasts longer and...

audiosciencereview.com

The result is - like some other topics (Vinyl discussion, sound differences between DACs etc) - lengthy debates start up all over the forum in which the same somewhat tired arguments go back and forth.

To avoid this, this thread has been co-opted as another collection location where all posts discussing op-amp rolling can be collected, leaving the reset of the forum a haven of non-op-amp related debate.

 

[DreaminquE]

Seeking Op-Amp Upgrade Advice for Asus Xonar Essence STX​

Hi everyone,

I’m currently in the process of upgrading the op-amps on my Asus Xonar Essence STX sound card and would love some advice from those who’ve gone through this process or have experience with op-amp upgrades for audio gear.

Current Setup:​

• Sound Card: Asus Xonar Essence STX
• DAC: PCM1792A
• Current Op-Amps: Stock op-amps (which are good, but I’m looking to improve)

What I’m Looking For:​

I’m aiming to achieve a more musical, smooth, and natural sound with better detail and soundstage. I’m particularly interested in improving the clarity of the highs without making them too sharp, and adding more warmth to the mids and lows for a more engaging and enjoyable listening experience.

I’m open to suggestions for op-amps that would help achieve this, especially if you have experience with specific models that have enhanced things like:

• Soundstage width and depth
• Clarity and detail without harshness
• Warmth and musicality in the sound

Op-Amps I’m Considering:​

• MUSES 8820 – I’ve heard great things about this op-amp for providing detail and a natural sound, but I’m wondering how it compares to others in terms of warmth and smoothness.
• OPA2134PA – This is another option I’m looking at, as it’s known for its smooth, musical qualities, which might help with the warmth and tonal balance.

Questions for the Community:​

1. Op-Amp Compatibility: Are there any specific op-amps you would recommend for the Xonar Essence STX that would suit my goals for a more musical and smoother sound?
2. Installation Tips: Any tips or tricks for installing op-amps on this card? I’ve done some research, but it would be great to hear about your experiences.
3. Sound Quality Differences: For those who have tried the MUSES 8820 or OPA2134PA (or any others), what differences did you notice in terms of sound quality, and do you think one would suit my desired outcome better?

Any suggestions or insights are much appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

 

[staticV3]

I’m aiming to achieve a more musical, smooth, and natural sound with better detail and soundstage. I’m particularly interested in improving the clarity of the highs without making them too sharp, and adding more warmth to the mids and lows for a more engaging and enjoyable listening experience.

New Opamps are frankly not the way to achieve that.

Though if you've spent weeks reading lyrical about some artisanal Opamp, finally pull the trigger and order it, then meticulously install it into your Xonar STX, your brain will do the rest and you'll hear all the musicality, clarity and engagement that you'd hoped for.

Confirmation bias and sunk cost fallacy are ruthless.

 

[threni]

Seeking Op-Amp Upgrade Advice for Asus Xonar Essence STX​

Hi everyone,

I’m currently in the process of upgrading the op-amps on my Asus Xonar Essence STX sound card and would love some advice from those who’ve gone through this process or have experience with op-amp upgrades for audio gear.

Current Setup:​

• Sound Card: Asus Xonar Essence STX
• DAC: PCM1792A
• Current Op-Amps: Stock op-amps (which are good, but I’m looking to improve)

What I’m Looking For:​

I’m aiming to achieve a more musical, smooth, and natural sound with better detail and soundstage. I’m particularly interested in improving the clarity of the highs without making them too sharp, and adding more warmth to the mids and lows for a more engaging and enjoyable listening experience.

I’m open to suggestions for op-amps that would help achieve this, especially if you have experience with specific models that have enhanced things like:

• Soundstage width and depth
• Clarity and detail without harshness
• Warmth and musicality in the sound

Op-Amps I’m Considering:​

• MUSES 8820 – I’ve heard great things about this op-amp for providing detail and a natural sound, but I’m wondering how it compares to others in terms of warmth and smoothness.
• OPA2134PA – This is another option I’m looking at, as it’s known for its smooth, musical qualities, which might help with the warmth and tonal balance.

Questions for the Community:​

1. Op-Amp Compatibility: Are there any specific op-amps you would recommend for the Xonar Essence STX that would suit my goals for a more musical and smoother sound?
2. Installation Tips: Any tips or tricks for installing op-amps on this card? I’ve done some research, but it would be great to hear about your experiences.
3. Sound Quality Differences: For those who have tried the MUSES 8820 or OPA2134PA (or any others), what differences did you notice in terms of sound quality, and do you think one would suit my desired outcome better?

Any suggestions or insights are much appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

Do the op-amp manufacturers make any of those claims (musical, smooth, natural, engaging, clarity, warmth etc)? If so they'll presumably be in the datasheets, including the unit. If not... well that'll also tell you something.

 

[DreaminquE]

New Opamps are frankly not the way to achieve that.

Though if you've spent weeks reading lyrical about some artisanal Opamp, finally pull the trigger and order it, then meticulously install it into your Xonar STX, your brain will do the rest and you'll hear all the musicality, clarity and engagement that you'd hoped for.

Confirmation bias and sunk cost fallacy are ruthless.

Do you think this is a fabrication?

Do the op-amp manufacturers make any of those claims (musical, smooth, natural, engaging, clarity, warmth etc)? If so they'll presumably be in the datasheets, including the unit. If not... well that'll also tell you something.

Like what kind of things?

 

[threni]

Like what kind of things?

That the effects you subscribe to the op-amps aren't really there: placebo; not something you'll be able to demonstrate you can hear any difference between in a correctly conducted blind test.

 

[JSmith]

I’m aiming to achieve a more musical, smooth, and natural sound with better detail and soundstage. I’m particularly interested in improving the clarity of the highs without making them too sharp, and adding more warmth to the mids and lows for a more engaging and enjoyable listening experience.

I’m open to suggestions for op-amps that would help achieve this

JSmith

 

[DreaminquE]

1. Listener Tolerance and Personal Perception: Every individual’s hearing is different. People perceive sounds in various ways, which means some might be able to hear changes when op-amps or other components are swapped, while others may not. This is a personal experience and perceptual difference.
2. Limitations of Blind Tests: While blind tests are a common method to measure differences in sound, the conditions of the test (e.g., the environment, the quality of the equipment, the duration of the test) can affect the ability to detect sound differences. Additionally, subtle differences might not be noticeable in a blind test.
3. High-Quality Equipment and Differences: In systems with high-quality equipment, op-amps might have more noticeable effects. Differences could be more audible in terms of sound details, tonality, dynamic range, and similar factors. These effects might not be as noticeable in lower-quality systems.
4. System Interactions: Op-amps don't just affect the system on their own; they interact with all the other components. The interaction between components, such as speakers, amplifiers, and DACs, can result in more noticeable differences when combined. Thus, changing just one component might be enough to hear a change.
5. Ongoing Experience and Long-Term Testing: Sometimes, it’s difficult to identify a change in the short term. However, over long-term use, small differences might accumulate and become more noticeable. For instance, someone who changes the op-amp might feel that the sound becomes more natural, clearer, or more relaxing over time.

In conclusion, understanding and identifying sound differences is highly subjective and depends on personal experience and sensitivity. The conditions of each test can also have a significant impact on the outcome.

(It is a quote.)

 

[GXAlan]

What I’m Looking For:​

I’m particularly interested in improving the clarity of the highs without making them too sharp, and adding more warmth to the mids and lows for a more engaging and enjoyable listening experience.

What’s the rest of your audio gear?

As for op-amps, you can see the difference between the left and right channel to showcase difference between op amps.

Review and Measurements of Asus STX II PCI Sound Card

This is a review and detailed measurements of Asus STX II PCI Express sound card. It is on kind loan from a member and retails for USD $219 on Amazon including Prime shipping. Full list price is $299. This is a medium sized PC card which oddly requires external power. You can see it here...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Asus no longer sells this product since it no longer is up to par.

 

[Count Arthur]

As others have said, there is little chance that changing the op-amps will make any audible or measurable difference.

ASUS Xonar Essence ST/STX soundcards Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

The frequency response is essentially flat in the audible range, a tiny –0.25dB at 20kHz will not be audible. If you want some added warmth, maybe use some EQ to dial in a bit of a lift around the 150Hz range. For a sense of detail, you add a little lift around 2kHz. However, having done that, you might find that it makes some tracks sound better, but others worse.

Source: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/

Changing electronics, unless they perform very poorly to start with, rarely makes a significant difference to the sound quality. Whereas using EQ, or room correction, improving the listening rooms acoustic properties, setting up the speakers correctly, or changing them, can have a profound effect.

 

[threni]

(It is a quote.)

So is this: "that sounds like the sort of nonsense I'd expect from someone who's trying to sell you improvements which don't exist and blaming you for being unable to hear them".

 

[DreaminquE]

For me, this is the beginning of a search for sound quality. It is a technique I learned as a result of my research on how to evaluate this card that I have. I just want to try it to gain experience. Thank you for your information on the subject.

 

[DVDdoug]

• Soundstage width and depth
• Clarity and detail without harshness
• Warmth and musicality in the sound

These things are not really defined. You MIGHT get some of these "effects" with different speakers or different room acoustics or intentional effects like EQ/tone controls, reverb, or surround effects, etc. From what you're describing, try EQ or tone controls.

If you aren't hearing noise (hum, hiss, or whine) in the background your soundcard is probably already better than human hearing. If you are hearing noise it's probably not coming from the op-amps unless you are recording with a microphone. Usually it's nose getting-in through the power supply or "radiated" from the computer's digital circuitry.

Mic preamps have lots of gain so any noise gets amplified and that includes any noise generated by the preamp/op-amp. A better op-amp might generate less noise. This isn't the same op-amp used for output-listening. But with microphones the biggest issue is usually acoustic noise in the room. For high-quality recording you need a soundproof "studio" and you should be using an audio interface with "pro" XLR mic inputs instead of a regular soundcard.

It is a technique I learned as a result of my research

Most "audiophiles" are nuts and most of what you read is nonsense! Undefined terminology and things that can't be measured are a big part of it.

Check out Audiophoolery.

For things that can't be defined or measured (or claimed to be unmeasurable) there are blind ABX tests. If somebody says amplifier-A is more "musical" than "amplifier-B and the difference can't be measured, it should be demonstrated in a scientific, blind, listening test. Some unmeasurable things DO exist in acoustics and perception (like the soundstage illusion) but they are not related to the electronics. Everything that's audible in a soundcard or amplifier can be measured.

 

[Doodski]

For me, this is the beginning of a search for sound quality. It is a technique I learned as a result of my research on how to evaluate this card that I have. I just want to try it to gain experience. Thank you for your information on the subject.

You are gambling with your OP amp selection and are not making any choice based on science and may end up with a oscillating circuit that you can't hear but is over driven and outputting high frequency sound that drives all the cats and dogs in your neighborhood nutters. In brief the OP amp selected from the manufacturer is designed for the operation and to simply guess about what other OP amps to plug and play is guesswork at best. Save your money and get EQ and make a real difference. Or buy new speakers.

 

[Count Arthur]

1. Listener Tolerance and Personal Perception: Every individual’s hearing is different. People perceive sounds in various ways, which means some might be able to hear changes when op-amps or other components are swapped, while others may not. This is a personal experience and perceptual difference.
2. Limitations of Blind Tests: While blind tests are a common method to measure differences in sound, the conditions of the test (e.g., the environment, the quality of the equipment, the duration of the test) can affect the ability to detect sound differences. Additionally, subtle differences might not be noticeable in a blind test.
3. High-Quality Equipment and Differences: In systems with high-quality equipment, op-amps might have more noticeable effects. Differences could be more audible in terms of sound details, tonality, dynamic range, and similar factors. These effects might not be as noticeable in lower-quality systems.
4. System Interactions: Op-amps don't just affect the system on their own; they interact with all the other components. The interaction between components, such as speakers, amplifiers, and DACs, can result in more noticeable differences when combined. Thus, changing just one component might be enough to hear a change.
5. Ongoing Experience and Long-Term Testing: Sometimes, it’s difficult to identify a change in the short term. However, over long-term use, small differences might accumulate and become more noticeable. For instance, someone who changes the op-amp might feel that the sound becomes more natural, clearer, or more relaxing over time.

In conclusion, understanding and identifying sound differences is highly subjective and depends on personal experience and sensitivity. The conditions of each test can also have a significant impact on the outcome.

(It is a quote.)

That all sounds like hogwash and nonsense, some of which, I myself once believed.

Many of the hi-fi magazines talk endlessly about the subtle differences between cables, brands of capacitors, the "musicality" of particular amplifiers, and op-amps, etc. and not being from an electrical engineering background, I went along with it.

Later, when it was easy to find information on the internet, I started to dabble with DIY electronics, my technical understanding improved. Now there are quite a few sites, like this one, that set about debunking a lot of the nonsense that has prevailed within the hi-fi press.

Once you get your head around a few key aspects of what counts in music reproduction, and take a little time to understand some of the technical measurements, it can be quite liberating.

You can stop fretting about cables, bizarre tweaks, any product with the word "quantum" in the specs, which op-amps or capacitors are used in a piece of electronics and focus on measured performance.

 

[AnalogSteph]

The STX is quite prone to internal ground loops related to the auxiliary power connection it requires. Obviously, should your system be affected by this, no opamp on this planet is going to change anything about it. Fundamentally, the hardware would be capable of preamp-grade performance, but it may not be a good idea to actually take advantage of this, or you may be greeted with all the usual funny noises.

As long as you can keep sufficient digital headroom and work around the card's various quirks while not encountering any ground loopissues, it should not be a limiting factor. What is connected to the card?

 

[DreaminquE]

Unfortunately, I do not have any technical knowledge. I only learned by reading the topics. I ordered it to experience it. Thank you for your comments.

 

[JeremyFife]

For me, this is the beginning of a search for sound quality. It is a technique I learned as a result of my research on how to evaluate this card that I have. I just want to try it to gain experience. Thank you for your information on the subject.

Being at the beginning of that search is a good place to be: but search with your mind and eyes open.
Learn about the science of psychoacoustics, how our perception changes what we hear.
This site is an invaluable resource, if you listen and want to learn.

Don't waste time on Op Amps, unless you are designing circuits from scratch.

 

[Rednaxela]

Unfortunately, I do not have any technical knowledge. I only learned by reading the topics.

That can’t have been ASR topics.

 

[Doodski]

Unfortunately, I do not have any technical knowledge. I only learned by reading the topics. I ordered it to experience it. Thank you for your comments.

Without technical know how do you think it a good idea swapping out parts blindly and without metering gear to see what you are actually doing?