Serious Question: How can Op Amp rolling improve the sound of an already well measuring device? Are that many confused? (Master Thread)

[DVDdoug]

1. Listener Tolerance and Personal Perception: Every individual’s hearing is different. People perceive sounds in various ways, which means some might be able to hear changes when op-amps or other components are swapped, while others may not. This is a personal experience and perceptual difference.
2. Limitations of Blind Tests: While blind tests are a common method to measure differences in sound, the conditions of the test (e.g., the environment, the quality of the equipment, the duration of the test) can affect the ability to detect sound differences. Additionally, subtle differences might not be noticeable in a blind test.
3. High-Quality Equipment and Differences: In systems with high-quality equipment, op-amps might have more noticeable effects. Differences could be more audible in terms of sound details, tonality, dynamic range, and similar factors. These effects might not be as noticeable in lower-quality systems.
4. System Interactions: Op-amps don't just affect the system on their own; they interact with all the other components. The interaction between components, such as speakers, amplifiers, and DACs, can result in more noticeable differences when combined. Thus, changing just one component might be enough to hear a change.
5. Ongoing Experience and Long-Term Testing: Sometimes, it’s difficult to identify a change in the short term. However, over long-term use, small differences might accumulate and become more noticeable. For instance, someone who changes the op-amp might feel that the sound becomes more natural, clearer, or more relaxing over time.

ChatGTP nonsense???

Listener Tolerance and Personal Perception: Every individual’s hearing is different. People perceive sounds in various ways,

True, but few people have super-human hearing. A lot of people think they have golden ears and when they fail a blind listening test they make excuses.

Limitations of Blind Tests:

Making a test non-blind NEVER makes it more reliable.

In systems with high-quality equipment, op-amps might have more noticeable effects.

Partially true. If your power amplifier is generating a lot of hum or hiss or some other defect, you might not hear other defects. If your speakers can't reproduce bass you are less likely to hear bass problems, etc. But a decent op-amp in a decent circuit is better than human hearing. (With the exception of mic preamps or phono preamps where if you turn up the gain high-enough you are likely to hear noise.)

Ongoing Experience and Long-Term Testing: Sometimes, it’s difficult to identify a change in the short term. However, over long-term use, small differences might accumulate and become more noticeable. For instance, someone who changes the op-amp might feel that the sound becomes more natural, clearer, or more relaxing over time.

The opposite is true. Our auditory memory is short. If you switch back-and-forth quickly you might hear a 1dB loudness change but if it's 1dB louder or quieter the next day you won't be able to (reliably) tell if there is a difference or not. The same goes when people are listening to MP3 compression artifacts. It's easier to hear a difference between the original and lossy compression with quick switching.

BUT, there are no artificial limits on an ABX test. If you want to listen to A for a week, B for a week, and X for a week that's a valid test. But you do need a sufficient number of trials to get a statistically valid result, so it's rarely practical.

P.S.
Like I said above, most audiophiles are nuts and on most other audiophile websites you'll get lots of support and agreement! But this is Audio SCIENCE review. HydrogenAudio is also scientific but they REQUIRE blind listening tests for any claims about sound quality. They won't even accept measurements, presumably because we can easily measure things we can't hear.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

It comes across as a troll thread. The OP had already decided on the topic, outcome, and purchase before even starting the discussion.

 

[Rednaxela]

Nah. Doesn’t look like a troll to me.

Asus Xonar Essence STX vs Fiio K5 Pro ESS

Hello. I already have the asus xonar essential stx. Would you recommend fiio k5 pro as a desktop dac?

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Doodski]

Nah. Doesn’t look like a troll to me.

Asus Xonar Essence STX vs Fiio K5 Pro ESS

Hello. I already have the asus xonar essential stx. Would you recommend fiio k5 pro as a desktop dac?

www.audiosciencereview.com

He's not here for advice or knowledge and seems only to want to lay out the future operation and do it.

 

[MAB]

Unfortunately, I do not have any technical knowledge. I only learned by reading the topics. I ordered it to experience it. Thank you for your comments.

You don't need any technical knowledge! The instructions on how to do it are clear. All you need is money to waste on opamps! I recommend the most expensive one, perhaps one of those Burson that stick out the top of the EMI shield and prevent insertion of PCIe cards in the adjacent slot! If that doesn't make a difference, what will? Alternately, get the cheapest ones you can find so you don't waste money. Waste is the key word here... Without the capacity to test the outcome, waste is what will happen.

Regarding support and instructions on how to plug opamps into sockets, there are entire forums of people with no expertise wasting their time on swapping op-amps on this mediocre soundcard (images pointless activities like rearranging deck furniture on Titanic all come to mind...)

The Xonar Essence STX Q/A, tweaking, impressions thread

Last updated March 18, 2010 Latest drivers: 5.12.8.1773 released 2009/11/06 New drivers coming! On 2010/02/11: Quote: Originally Posted by ROBSCIX Hey guys, I have confirmed with the powers that be at ASUS that they will be releasing a new and improved driver set the the public...

www.head-fi.org

Lots of pictures and links to videos showing exactly how to do it, with testimonials too! None of it compelling of course.

You could learn about why this is a waste of time on ASR though. Do you have some reasons you think make opamp rolling valid? Is there some introspection you can do to see why randomly replacing electronic components, even of similar purpose, may be a poorly thought out idea?

 

[DreaminquE]

Bu arayışın içinde olmak iyi bir yer: ancak zihniniz ve gözünüzü açıkken arayın.
Psikoakustik bilimini, algımızın yetinmemizi nasıl değiştirdiğini öğrenin.
Eğer okuyor ve öğreniyorsanız bu site paha biçilmez bir kaynaktır.

Sıfırdan devre tasarlayamıyorsanız, Op Amp'lere zaman harcamayın.

It's enough for me that it sounds good to me. I don't need to do any deep research. Thanks for the advice.

Bunlar ASR konuları olamaz.

I think I can talk about everything related to audio here. That's why I chose this forum.

Teknik özelliklere sahip olmadan, ölçüm cihazı kullanmadan ve ne yapmayı görmeden parçaları körü körüne değiştirmenin iyi bir fikir olup olmadığı mı?

just to gain experience.

ChatGTP saçmalığı mı???


Doğru, ancak çok az insan süper insan işitme duyusuna sahiptir. Birçok insan altın kulaklara sahip olduğunu düşünür ve kör kesme testinde başarısız olduklarında eksikler üretirler.


Bir testi körlemeden yapmak onu ASLA daha güvenilir yapmaz.


Kısmen doğru. Güç amplifikatörünüz çok fazla uğultu veya tıslama veya başka bir kusur üretirsa, diğer kusurları duyamazsınız. Hoparlörlerinizin bası yeniden üretilemiyorsa, bas sorunları vb. duyma oranlarımız daha düşüktür. Ancak iyi bir devrede iyi bir op-amp, insan duymasından daha iyidir. (Kazancı yeterince yükselttiğinizde gürültü duymaz olan mikrofon ön amfileri veya fono ön amfileri hariç.)


Tam tersidir. İşitsel hafızamız kısadır. Hızlı bir şekilde ileri geri geçiş aralığında 1 dB'lik bir sesteki değişiklikleri duyabilirsiniz ancak ertesi gün 1 dB daha yüksek veya daha düşük bir fark olup olmadığını (güvenilir bir şekilde) söyleyemezsin. İnsanların MP3 sıkıştırma parçaları dinlenirken aynı şeyler geçerlidir. Hızlı orijinal ve kayıplı sıkıştırma arasındaki fark geçişi sağlamak daha kolay.

AMA, bir ABX testinde yapay olarak kullanılamaz. A'yı bir hafta, B'yi bir hafta ve X'i bir hafta dinlemek istiyorsanız bu mevcut bir testtir. Ancak eksiksiz olarak geçerli bir sonuç elde etmek için yeterli sayıda denemeye ihtiyacınız vardır, bu nedenle basit bir şekilde pratiktir.

Olumsuz:
Yukarıda söylediğim gibi, çoğu ses tutkunu çılgındır ve diğer ses tutkunu web sitelerinin çok sayıda destek ve fikir birliği halindesiniz! Ancak bu Audio SCIENCE incelemesi. HydrogenAudio da onaylıdır ancak ses kalitesiyle ilgili herhangi bir iddia için kör dinleme testleri GEREKTİRİR. Ölçümleri bile kabul etmezler, muhtemelen duyamadığımız şeyleri kolayca ölçebildiğimiz için.

To measure is to draw conclusions. I'm just curious about how it will feel.

Trolleme başlığı gibi görünüyor. OP, tartışmaya başlamadan önce konuya, sonuca ve satın almaya karar vermişti.

The affordability didn't bother me. After all, it's not a million-dollar transaction?

Hayır. Bana trol gibi görünmüyor.

Asus Xonar Essence STX vs Fiio K5 Pro ESS

Hello. I already have the asus xonar essential stx. Would you recommend fiio k5 pro as a desktop dac?

www.audiosciencereview.com

What do you mean by trolling? Is trying to learn something, asking questions, doing research a troll? What bothers you?O, tavsiye veya bilgi almak için burada değil ve sadece gelecekteki operasyonu planlayıp uygulamak istiyor gibi görünüyor.
Both at once

Hiçbir teknik bilgiye ihtiyacınız yok! Bunu nasıl yapacağınıza dair talimatlar açık. Tek ihtiyacınız olan opamp'lere harcayacağınız para! En pahalısını öneririm, belki de EMI kalkanının tepesinden dışarı çıkan ve PCIe kartlarının bitişik yuvaya takılmasını engelleyen Burson'lardan biri! Eğer bu bir fark yaratmazsa, ne yaratacak? Alternatif olarak, bulabildiğiniz en ucuz olanları alın ki paranızı boşa harcamayın. Buradaki anahtar kelime israftır... Sonucu test etme kapasitesi olmadan, israf olacaktır.

Opamp'lerin soketlere nasıl takılacağına dair destek ve talimatlar konusunda, bu vasat ses kartında op-amp'leri değiştirmek için zamanlarını harcayan hiçbir uzmanlığı olmayan insanların oluşturduğu forumlar var (akla Titanic'te güverte mobilyalarını yeniden düzenlemek gibi anlamsız aktiviteler geliyor...)

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-xonar-essence-stx-qa-tweaking-impressions-thread.421890/

Bunu nasıl yapacağınızı tam olarak gösteren bir sürü resim ve video bağlantısı, ayrıca referanslar da var! Elbette hiçbiri ikna edici değil.

Bunun ASR'de neden zaman kaybı olduğunu öğrenebilirsiniz. Opamp yuvarlamayı geçerli kılan bazı nedenleriniz var mı? Benzer amaçlı olsalar bile elektronik bileşenleri rastgele değiştirmenin neden kötü düşünülmüş bir fikir olabileceğini görmek için yapabileceğiniz bir iç gözlem var mı?

It is a very suitable job for me. I think you are exaggerating too much. For me, experience is more important than the cost. Because I am new to this audio enthusiast. You answer people who ask questions on the forum as if you are angry about information. Of course, this is generally the members. Unfortunately, instead of trying to help, there are those who try to belittle. I was disappointed by the forum that said that your age is too high. BUT THANKS FOR EVERYTHING. I WISH YOU A GOOD FORUM.

(Sorry for the translation.)

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Kulağıma hoş gelmesi yeterli benim için. Derin bir araştırma yapmama gerek yok. Tavsiyen için teşekkürler.

Burada sesle ilgili her şeyi konuşabileceğimi düşünüyorum. Bu yüzden bu forumu seçtim.

sadece deneyim kazanmak için.

Ölçmek, sonuç çıkarmaktır. Sadece nasıl hissettireceğini merak ediyorum.

Uygun fiyatlı olması beni rahatsız etmedi. Sonuçta milyon dolarlık bir işlem değil?

Trol derken neyi kastediyorsun? Bir şey öğrenmek için çabalamak, soru sormak, araştırma yapmak trol müdür? Seni ne rahatsız ediyor?

İkisi birden

Benim için çok uygun bir iş. Bence çok abartıyorsunuz. Benim için deneyim maliyetinden daha önemli. Çünkü bu ses meraklılarına yeni başladım. Forumda soru soran insanlara sanki bir bilgi kızıyormuşsunuz gibi cevap vermektesiniz. Elbette bunu genel olarak üyeler. Ne yazık ki yardımcı olmaya çalışmak yerine küçümsemeye çalışanlar var. Yaşının çok yüksek olduğunu söyleyen forumdan hayal kırıklığına uğradım. AMA HER ŞEY İÇİN TEŞEKKÜRLER. İYİ FORUMLAR DİLERİM.

(Çeviri için özür dilerim.)

Please use English (including when quoting)

 

[FrantzM]

Troll Thread.
Troll OP.

Don't feed the troll.

Peace.

 

[ElJaimito]

Re the OP - I will take your question seriously.

There are two areas where audio engineering is tremendously lacking in high performance and fidelity - input transducers and output transducers. Transducers are where energy is changed from one form to another -in audio, acoustic pressure change to electrical change and vice-versa. Out of these two, the output transducers are the biggest problem. Tremendous improvement has been achieved in the last few decades, and some expensive loudspeakers now have performance almost approximating to very cheap amplifiers of the 1950s. Moreover, most people listen in acoustically poor spaces.

In terms of improvement per cost, money is best spent on improving the things that are most in need of improvement. The same applies to expended time.

This does not include op-amp swaps. Unless the original circuit design is seriously deficient, op-amp swaps will not produce sonic improvements. The fact that an op-amp is technically superior to another in some spec sheet measurement does not mean that this is automatically reflected in better measured performance in-circuit. Moreover, reaping those improvements usually means designing a circuit specifically to do so, not swapping devices in a general non-optimised circuit. It's far more likely that higher performance op-amps will work worse than the originals - notably, high frequency instability and oscillation are commonplace. That does of course mean that when in such a fault mode it sounds *different*.

Of course, you can try it, why not? But note that you need a double-blind test to determine differences to be beyond mere impression. And that's difficult with one single soundcard. If you do that, you will find that swapping op-amps is a bit like - I have to restrain myself here. Let's say, a pointless exercise. The same effort devoted to room acoustics is more rewarding. Buying better speakers WILL give better sound.

 

[Jim Taylor]

You answer people who ask questions on the forum as if you are angry about information.

Please forgive the appearance. Long-time members here frequently get fed up not with information, but with MISinformation. This site is a constant target for trolls because it tries to disseminate what is truthful rather than what is disingenuous.
Cheats, liars and scam artists hate nothing more than the truth, because it exposes what they're doing. So they make up good-sounding bullshit that supports and tries to protect their lucrative business.

It's enough for me that it sounds good to me.

Then why are you here? You don't need ASR for that.

. I don't need to do any deep research.

It doesn't need to be "deep". It just needs to be at a practical level. If you're going to drive a car, don't you need a license and know the rules of the road? If you're going to cook, don't you need a cursory knowledge of your stove and which pots and pans to use?

The world around us is fast changing. That creates a fertile environment for dishonest people. Stick around here and learn a little, not to mollify us, but to help yourself.

You can start HERE.

 

[MAB]

It is a very suitable job for me.

Yes, lots of people can roll opamps. Instruction videos abound. The product even has a opamp swapping instructions at the website.

https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/Audio_Card/Xonar_Essence_STX/Xonar_Essence_STX_OPamp_swapping_instruction.zip?model=Xonar%20Essence%20STX

I think you are exaggerating too much. For me, experience is more important than the cost. Because I am new to this audio enthusiast.

Not sure what I exaggerated. The ease of swapping opamps, or the utter waste of time? Or the advice to either save money, or go big just to see if the most expensive opamp makes a difference for you. Without the capacity to measure or test anything, the time and money are all your own, with results not worth discussing...

You answer people who ask questions on the forum as if you are angry about information.

I was laughing. Perhaps I need to put an open mouth smiley to make it clear.

Of course, this is generally the members. Unfortunately, instead of trying to help, there are those who try to belittle. I was disappointed by the forum that said that your age is too high. BUT THANKS FOR EVERYTHING. I WISH YOU A GOOD FORUM.

Yeah, other forums might work out better for you. There are forums that focus on this, and oodles of YouTube videos doing the same. Focus on those.

 

[Jimbob54]

Please use English (including when quoting)

Very much this please @DreaminquE

 

[Bruce Morgen]

Confirmation bias and sunk cost fallacy are ruthless.

It's hard to admit to oneself that ones monetary and emotional commitment has no actual ROI.

 

[threni]

Yeah, other forums might work out better for you. There are forums that focus on this, and oodles of YouTube videos doing the same. Focus on those.

Exactly. Headfi for example explicitly bans people from suggesting perhaps they might do well to blind test potential tweaks or improvements; if your "lived experience" is that a special power supply or cable riser makes the output more "musical" or less "clinical" then that's all the evidence you need - just type it up and press send and the credulous lap it up. Thankfully, that's not the case here.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

Exactly. Headfi for example explicitly bans people from suggesting perhaps they might do well to blind test potential tweaks or improvements; if your "lived experience" is that a special power supply or cable riser makes the output more "musical" or less "clinical" then that's all the evidence you need - just type it up and press send and the credulous lap it up. Thankfully, that's not the case here.

I maintain a lurker profile on Audiokarma because it’s an invaluable resource for information and knowledge on vintage audio spanning decades. However, those who suggest blind tests or challenge questionable claims, like snake oil products or exaggerated golden ear abilities, often face ridicule and criticism, also from the moderators.
As a result, their profiles often don’t last long if they continue to engage in that way. I’ve seen countless users come and "go" over the years.

 

[solderdude]

Seeking Op-Amp Upgrade Advice for Asus Xonar Essence STX​

Hi everyone,

I’m currently in the process of upgrading the op-amps on my Asus Xonar Essence STX sound card and would love some advice from those who’ve gone through this process or have experience with op-amp upgrades for audio gear.

Current Setup:​

• Sound Card: Asus Xonar Essence STX
• DAC: PCM1792A
• Current Op-Amps: Stock op-amps (which are good, but I’m looking to improve)

What I’m Looking For:​

I’m aiming to achieve a more musical, smooth, and natural sound with better detail and soundstage. I’m particularly interested in improving the clarity of the highs without making them too sharp, and adding more warmth to the mids and lows for a more engaging and enjoyable listening experience.

I’m open to suggestions for op-amps that would help achieve this, especially if you have experience with specific models that have enhanced things like:

• Soundstage width and depth
• Clarity and detail without harshness
• Warmth and musicality in the sound

Op-Amps I’m Considering:​

• MUSES 8820 – I’ve heard great things about this op-amp for providing detail and a natural sound, but I’m wondering how it compares to others in terms of warmth and smoothness.
• OPA2134PA – This is another option I’m looking at, as it’s known for its smooth, musical qualities, which might help with the warmth and tonal balance.

Questions for the Community:​

1. Op-Amp Compatibility: Are there any specific op-amps you would recommend for the Xonar Essence STX that would suit my goals for a more musical and smoother sound?
2. Installation Tips: Any tips or tricks for installing op-amps on this card? I’ve done some research, but it would be great to hear about your experiences.
3. Sound Quality Differences: For those who have tried the MUSES 8820 or OPA2134PA (or any others), what differences did you notice in terms of sound quality, and do you think one would suit my desired outcome better?

Any suggestions or insights are much appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

When you believe opamps make an audible difference they surely will.
That's simply how the brain works.
I say go for it... buy both and keep what you like.
One thing is pretty much certain and that is the perceived differences won't come from better signal fidelity/quality.
When you don't care what the reason is for the perceived jump in sound quality and don't mind spending money on it ... just go for it. Make the 'upgrade sellers' happy as well as yourself.

 

[DreaminquE]

Thank you to everyone who wants to help me with this issue. Except for those who want to condemn. I examined, learned and applied the op-amp replacement processes for Asus xonar essential stx. Of course, there are points where you may be right. My experience is more important. It really feels the same when I'm searching without fooling my brain, but when I trick it, the bass frequencies feel very frequent and the trebles feel softer. What I don't understand is that if it only happened when we tried it for Asus xonar essential stx, this is a brain trick, so why doesn't it happen when we listen to other sounds? Or do our voices emerge only through our emotions and brain eyes? Is the sound controlled by the brain and not the ear? strange..

 

[voodooless]

Is the sound controlled by the brain and not the ear? strange..

Why is it strange? The ears only pick up sound, the brain does the interpretation.

Do you have a blank spot in your vision where the Macular Hole is (the place where the nerves exit your eyes)? The brain fills it in for you. It doesn’t do a perfect job, but it good enough. Your brain also fills in things your ears pick up. And it’s much easier to fool the ears than the eyes. Emotions pay a much larger role here.

My experience is more important.

Even if this experience is shaped by an industry full of charlatans trying to gouge ever last penny from the ignorant by lying, cheating and spreading misinformation for decades?

 

[threni]

Thank you to everyone who wants to help me with this issue. Except for those who want to condemn. I examined, learned and applied the op-amp replacement processes for Asus xonar essential stx. Of course, there are points where you may be right. My experience is more important. It really feels the same when I'm searching without fooling my brain, but when I trick it, the bass frequencies feel very frequent and the trebles feel softer. What I don't understand is that if it only happened when we tried it for Asus xonar essential stx, this is a brain trick, so why doesn't it happen when we listen to other sounds? Or do our voices emerge only through our emotions and brain eyes? Is the sound controlled by the brain and not the ear? strange..



View attachment 430991

"when I trick it, the bass frequencies feel very frequent and the trebles feel softer"

You mean like how the checker shadow illusion here:

Optical illusion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

tricks your brain into thinking B is lighter than A? Given your approach you'll be saying "My experience is more important" right? You've been looking at objects both light and dark for decades and you're pretty sure you can tell them apart etc? You don't fall for tricks. B is obviously lighter than A - you don't need to test anything.

"Is the sound controlled by the brain and not the ear?" Your ear picks up the sound, then your brain gets to work with a bunch of biases:

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now, I'm sure you're going to see this as an attack because it's challenging the way you've always approached audio. That's really up to you, but you have all the information now to investigate where you should be spending your time and money in improving your listening experience, which is what this site is all about.

 

[JeremyFife]

Thank you to everyone who wants to help me with this issue. Except for those who want to condemn. I examined, learned and applied the op-amp replacement processes for Asus xonar essential stx. Of course, there are points where you may be right. My experience is more important. It really feels the same when I'm searching without fooling my brain, but when I trick it, the bass frequencies feel very frequent and the trebles feel softer. What I don't understand is that if it only happened when we tried it for Asus xonar essential stx, this is a brain trick, so why doesn't it happen when we listen to other sounds? Or do our voices emerge only through our emotions and brain eyes? Is the sound controlled by the brain and not the ear? strange..



View attachment 430991

Perhaps think about it like this;

If I said I had measured a piece of equipment, the first questions I'd get would be "what did I measure with, and how did I carry out the measurements"
If I had used poor equipment for the measurements, or hadn't followed good process and applied controls, then I'd be told (correctly) that my measurements were useless... some members here would be blunt, but they'd still be right!

When we use our ears as the measurement tool, the same principles apply: we have to apply controls and we have to remove the things that invalidate listening tests.

If you don't listen blind (double blind, preferably ABX), level matched and with quick comparisons then you don't have useful measurements.

Bluntly, your brain fools is, unless we add controls.

You could try recording the output with/without opamps and comparing that ...