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PS Audio sent Erin their speaker??!!

ahofer

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This is very true. I'm sure some will come away with different impressions, but I listen to live and often unamplified music very often and whenever I hear speakers that's are too pinpoint precise, I find I'm taken out of the experience.

Of course, depends on how the music is recorded and mixed too.


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It’s true, when you close your eyes, that the instrument location is harder (at least in larger and more reflective venues). But we watch at concerts, so we are in this circle of confusion where you are trying to recreate the illusion of the concert without the visual stimuli. So perhaps some people prefer more pinpoint localization to facilitate the complete illusion.

Oddly enough, I’ve taken to closing my eyes at concerts unless there’s something technical I want to observe. I seem to like wider dispersion speakers, and localization only really bugs me when the violin (section) suddenly seems to be coming from the right channel through a certain frequency range and then returns. This happens in my NY setup (Harbeth) through some combination of uneven directivity, reflections, and a few recordings with mic bleed or, perhaps, a reflection in the recording venue. So many variables, including now my expectations.

This old recording has it pretty bad (try the second movement of the Ravel)
1711205405695.png
 
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CleanSound

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I'm not sure two matched speakers in a room will still be matched.
Even if you have two speakers matched to within 0.01dB, the typical room makes them mismatched by more than 3dB above transition, and more than 10 or 15dB below, unless you have a magical room. And even worse, the early and the reflections by large amounts as well. The room bends the speaker's response dramatically. So how can exact matching even be a criteria? I have always heard it's even smooth dispersion that allows speakers to provide a reasonable sound-field, creating the illusion of an image. I keep reading this, and I see it in good speaker's measurements.
The one potential flaw I see in this is that, this is predicated on the sum of all the direct and reflected sound.

You seem to have noticed the same issues in your REW measurement thread on your own speakers. Don't despair! You have great speakers, it's your room.
Well the issue I noticed is some bass-room interacted resonance, possibly some room mode; it's not bad at all, but I do notice it with certain bass notes. The imaging is still excellent. I'm pretty certain it's not the speakers, as the the measurements on them are excellent and confirmed by James Larson with quasi anechoic measurements. I just need to get some good REW measurements and then I can troubleshoot what is going on.
 

CleanSound

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Nobody actually cares how Amir listens to a single loudspeaker in his room. It tells nobody else anything.

It doesn't remotely relate or equate to anybody else's experiences somewhere else. Not even close. Nobody ever uses a single loudspeaker in a room, playing one channel of a stereo recording (what a joke) and equally few ever listen to even mono content on a pair of loudspeakers in a room. The entire premise is flawed in the extreme.

The single speaker listening test for "spatial qualities" idea of using a single channel of a stereo recording is so faulty, misguided and plain stupid, it's totally hilarious. Sadly, some misguided people apparently think it has some value. I pity them.

I wonder if some reviewers actually have any concept of what stereophonic recordings are, why we even have 2 channels and what is good reproduction is, and what isn't.

Take the Klippel results with a grain of salt, and use them, ultimately listen and decide. Throw everything else out.
I 100% agree with this. . .only if we notch down the verbiage a bit.

No one is saying using a single speaker to evaluate tonal balance and other sonic qualities are flaw. In fact, there is absolutely merit and is needed for all the reasons everyone explain. ZERO disagreements on this.

I am in agreement with restore-john that mono listening evaluation alone is incomplete and insufficient for the purpose of evaluating a pair of speakers intended for stereo playback.

We are not saying either or, we are saying both! And I am not forcing Amir to adopt such change, I am simply defending others who does stereo listening evaluation.
 

CleanSound

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Poor thing, what a humiliation !;)
:D Revel has been the king for maybe decades? But a decade later (mainly in the last 3 to 5 years), many are catching up and many are surpassing Revel.

Granted they haven't refresh their product in a long time, and my gut tells me any new models will be a big bang and elevate them back to the throne.

We shall see. . .
 

Gringoaudio1

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For sure the so-called ‘soundstage’ is a very accidental product of the room and speaker interaction. And the placement of instruments that results is an accidental artifact. But dang it’s fun to hear. If a speaker somehow does this better than another given their FR is equally good I’m choosing the one that ‘images’ in an interesting way. Maybe dispersion will be found to correlate to soundstage in some way eventually.
I can see some techniques that were used by Giles Martin to deconstruct the Beatles songs to their individual instruments using ai to give locations in the soundstage for individual instruments. With the help of ai he identified the harmonic signatures of individual instruments and pulled them out to be able to remix them. It would just take several mic locations to triangulate to those unique harmonic signatures and map the soundstage. Then one could determine any correlations to other factors in both room characteristics and speaker design.
 

Sokel

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Nobody actually cares how Amir listens to a single loudspeaker in his room. It tells nobody else anything.

It doesn't remotely relate or equate to anybody else's experiences somewhere else. Not even close. Nobody ever uses a single loudspeaker in a room, playing one channel of a stereo recording (what a joke) and equally few ever listen to even mono content on a pair of loudspeakers in a room. The entire premise is flawed in the extreme.

The single speaker listening test for "spatial qualities" idea of using a single channel of a stereo recording is so faulty, misguided and plain stupid, it's totally hilarious. Sadly, some misguided people apparently think it has some value. I pity them.

I wonder if some reviewers actually have any concept of what stereophonic recordings are, why we even have 2 channels and what is good reproduction is, and what isn't.

Take the Klippel results with a grain of salt, and use them, ultimately listen and decide. Throw everything else out.
Oh,I don't care about mono listening either expect for the obvious,buzzes,crackles,drivers bottoming,etc.
No,not even tonality,EQing,etc.

When it comes to speakers I see measurements,what they look like (equally important to me) and finally listen to them in my room.
Old fashioned,I know,but I have certain problems about thin sound or hot highs,etc.

Measurements are just fine to me,the rest...
 

Doodski

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For sure the so-called ‘soundstage’ is a very accidental product of the room and speaker interaction. And the placement of instruments that results is an accidental artifact. But dang it’s fun to hear.
I'm on the same page as you on this. There is no standard for creating imaging in the studio and it's artistic flair and interpretation.
If a speaker somehow does this better than another given their FR is equally good I’m choosing the one that ‘images’ in an interesting way.
I lose my direction @ this point because I don't see imaging as indicative of absolute quality and I think the solution is matched pair speakers. So even if the imaging in some speakers is very good I let the frequency response of the matched pair lead the decision making process.

All in all though even that rational does not work realistically because I am a user of PEQ like no other apparently. I purchase high accuracy transducers and then using PEQ I make everything extreme. So maybe your method and ideas are the correct method. Find good transducers and choose that speaker with the awesome imaging... sigh* :D
 

Doodski

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Without any scientific explanation at hand to offer this statement: I have a hard time believing it's completely accidental.
It is. It is a product of artistic expression and flare @ the studio and then the speaker designers' interpretation and then the room effect.
 

ahofer

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I lose my direction @ this point because I don't see imaging as indicative of absolute quality and I think the solution is matched pair speakers.
We’ve had so many threads on this, and it seems, to me, like it comes down to even directivity (which would certainly imply matched pairs as well once in stereo) and an individual preference for wide or narrow directivity, which has inevitable trade offs (precision, perceived ‘size’, seating flexibility). I haven’t seen any evidence that something else is at play (in the loudspeaker, that is).

As always, I could be wrong.
 

MaxBuck

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Well, the Polk looks like a very good speaker for the money.

They are using 5.25" woofers instead of 6.5" woofers and have a lot less bass output capability and a pretty high non-linear distortion in the midrange and I expect that they sound pretty different.
Polk R500
aspen FR10
I appreciate your straightforward response, Chris!

It's easy to wish you success, even as I see myself as unlikely to be a customer.
 

Gringoaudio1

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Without any scientific explanation at hand to offer this statement: I have a hard time believing it's completely accidental.
As there are no measurable metrics for measuring soundstage there can be no design criteria for creating it. Some loose correlations exist though. Wide dispersion patterns and bookshelf speakers tend to create better soundstage. Why? It would be nice to get to the bottom of this. Otherwise speaker designers are throwing darts blindfolded. They know which direction approximately but have no idea where the dartboard is. And it is certainly not a determination of quality. Not yet anyway until we understand it and can design for it. If that’s even possible.
 

napilopez

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We’ve had so many threads on this, and it seems, to me, like it comes down to even directivity (which would certainly imply matched pairs as well once in stereo) and an individual preference for wide or narrow directivity, which has inevitable trade offs (precision, perceived ‘size’, seating flexibility). I haven’t seen any evidence that something else is at play (in the loudspeaker, that is).

As always, I could be wrong.

Yeah, this is where I'm at. I've contributed dozens of quasi anechoic speaker measurements and been reading about speakers here for four or five years, read a bunch of papers, and I still haven't seen anything convincing to indicate that the qualities (or flaws) in the speaker's soundstage comes from anything beyond directivity behavior, frequency response, and potential resonances (which are usually noticeable from the previous too), all assuming a reasonable pair match. Neither in my own listening experience nor in what I've read from others.

In fact, my issue is that I generally think people don't pay close enough attention to directivity beyond a quick glance at the beamwidth or shape of the polar response and DI/ERDI curves in the spinorama.

I think there is potential for much more insight we can learnfrom the SPL response at individual angles and averaged responses over small windows.

There's still a lot we don't know about vertical directivity. There's still a lot to assess about the shape of the off-axis curves, such as whether they have a smoothly decreasing slope (like Neumann's and Genelecs), whether they have constant directivity for a portion of the response (like many JBL horns/), how smooth the individual off-axis curves are, what directivity is like below 1000Hz (perhaps contributing to a sense of envelopment), etc.

Then there's the matter of "wide" vs "narrow" traditional designs, let alone more esoteric ones. Narrower speakers a la Neumann, Genelec, and kef almost always have prettier off-axis curves, but then the off axis response is less similar in slope to the on-axis response than it would be on a wider speaker

Constant directivity speakers like the D&D8C have narrower directivity but maintain that relatively flat off axis slope. This seems to be something I subjectively enjoy.

(All of this is why I don't like contour plots, because I feel they obscure a lot of this information for a visual that's slightly easier to digest.)

This is all complicated by room interaction, but it's why I personally think anyone with access to PEQ should learn the directivity qualities they enjoy in their space and buy speakers off directivity rather than FR (as long as the speaker seems relatively easy to EQ.). Of course, it's better to have both.

Returning to the topic of the FR10, it's why I think it's a solid speaker. The frequency response isn't that bad, and the directivity behavior is excellent.

Of course, all that goes out the window if you're making recommendations for a listener who's likely to never touch EQ, which is why I appreciate Amir's occasional dual ratings for speakers or headphones.
 
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MaxBuck

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As a reviewer, doing anything else is irresponsible (feeding people unreliable and misleading information). I know some audiophiles love the sense of soundstage but go and listen to some live music and you will notice that the band's sound is diffused and there is no precise imaging, etc.
It's been my experience that some instruments seem to be easily placed, eyes closed, in live performance: piano and acoustic guitar being examples. French horns and violas seem to be on the opposite side.

I'm also open to the idea that I'm imagining all this. The brain is tricky that way.
 

GXAlan

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I think I've sometimes been ASR's resident measurement comparison guy, so it's something I've noticed a lot.
That is impressive matching. Did you ever write up your testing protocol? I recall you did a pseudo spin with gating, but these on-axis measurements are great and presumably a lot less time consuming to do.
 

napilopez

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That is impressive matching. Did you ever write up your testing protocol? I recall you did a pseudo spin with gating, but these on-axis measurements are great and presumably a lot less time consuming to do.

It's stickied =] the guide is for the full spin but is designed so that you can use it for just the on-axis measurements or partial off-axis measurements too. Bass will often a bit off with this method in terms of proper SPL level, but the contours are generally correct. But the room is in control so the overall contour is most of what you need anyway imo.

Edit: You should only need up to part 3 for on axis measurements sans bass and could skim sections 1 and 2 if you're already familiar with the concept of gated measurements. Part 4 covers near field bass on axis.

The guide is in the process of a rewrite actually, which I hope to publish this summer when I'm on summer break.
 
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