PS Audio sent Erin their speaker??!!

[ahofer]

I appreciate your straightforward response, Chris!

It's easy to wish you success, even as I see myself as unlikely to be a customer.

Likewise, @Chris Brunhaver, thanks for your participation here. Your facts-based discussion of speaker design and provision of samples for measurement is very refreshing.

 

[Duke]

They have asymmetrical tweeters and the directivity especially when viewed in a contour plot or polar map is uneven. However the cumulative horizontal directivity performance is as smooth as anything else. I've found my impressions of soundstage generally line up most closely with the sidewall and total horizontal reflections components of the early reflections curve(and respective custom DI curves) more than any other method of assessing directivity.

Yes, I have found that the direct sound needs to be spectrally correct, but for the reflection field the cumulative (summed) spectral balance matters far more than the spectral balance of any reflection or set of reflections on its own. By this paradigm, it's okay to fix the spectral balance of the reflection field with a rear-firing tweeter (though in practice it must not be too loud else clarity suffers).

But there's a bit more to it. I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that I've theorized that with mirrored asymmetrical tweeters, the directivity toward the side closest to the nearest sidewall has a dominant perceptual effect, helping to explain the difference in spatial presentation with the tweeters out vs in, even when trying to match the acoustic centers.

I found this in one of your posts on another thread:

"With the L52, using the tweeters on the outside, I occasionally had the annoying feeling the center image was ever so slightly shifted, something that I've never experienced before. However, adjusting the placement slightly fixed it, and it never happened with the tweeters on the inside. I believe this is possibly due to the asymmetrical directivity exacerbating effect of highly asymmetrical sidewall distance in my space

"... I believe when speakers have mirrored driver arrangements, the directivity toward the side closest to the sidewalls has a dominant effect on the perception of upper frequencies and spatial presentation."

Good analysis of your observations! (And if you managed to spell "exacerbating" without using spell-check, I'm even more impressed!) Here are two things that may be going on:

First, the dispersion towards the wall will be generally wider with the tweeter towards the outside, as the baffle itself can be thought of as a 180 degree horn. This "horn" loses directional control at a higher frequency on the short side. So you will get more sidewall interaction at frequencies that matter for imaging with the tweeter to the outside. Personal preference comes into play regarding which sounds "best".

Second, the reflection at the edge of the enclosure - especially the nearest edge of the enclosure - generates a false azimuth cue. In general the longer the time delay before that false azimuth cue arrives (i.e. the wider the enclosure, particularly to the inside), the more disruptive of image precision this false azimuth cue is. I can explain in more detail if you'd like. But this is one of the reasons why, in general, narrow speakers image better than wide speakers.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Wow 18 pages
Is there a TLDR ?

 

[Duke]

As there are no measurable metrics for measuring soundstage there can be no design criteria for creating it. Some loose correlations exist though. Wide dispersion patterns and bookshelf speakers tend to create better soundstage. Why? It would be nice to get to the bottom of this. Otherwise speaker designers are throwing darts blindfolded. They know which direction approximately but have no idea where the dartboard is. And it is certainly not a determination of quality. Not yet anyway until we understand it and can design for it. If that’s even possible.

I understand how it can look that way. While I certainly cannot speak for other designers, if you are open to hearing some thoughts on the subject I'll tighten up my blindfold and pontificate about my dart-throwing technique.

Maybe dispersion will be found to correlate to soundstage in some way eventually.

My thinking is along those lines. My dartboard game plan uses dispersion to get room interaction that I think will enable good spatial quality.

 

[CleanSound]

Wow 18 pages
Is there a TLDR ?

Chris from PS Audio is genuinely a great guy. The best foot forward that PS Audio has to offer.

Speaker is pretty good based on the data. Albiet expensive.

The subjective part of Erin's review is either word salad or valuable feedback depending on who you ask.

Mono subjective listening is all that is needed even for stereo playback prediction or you must do stereo subjective listening as well, depending on opinion.

Then other bickering here and there.

Thread is civil so far, not one got put on time out that I know of.

 

[sigbergaudio]

As there are no measurable metrics for measuring soundstage there can be no design criteria for creating it. Some loose correlations exist though. Wide dispersion patterns and bookshelf speakers tend to create better soundstage. Why? It would be nice to get to the bottom of this. Otherwise speaker designers are throwing darts blindfolded. They know which direction approximately but have no idea where the dartboard is. And it is certainly not a determination of quality. Not yet anyway until we understand it and can design for it. If that’s even possible.

While not directly measureable - I made some suggestions of speaker characteristics that are likely to contribute to good soundstage in the first post of this thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rge-and-precise-soundstage.48542/post-1739505

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

i guess the biggest competidor to the FR10, which shares good bass extension and wide dispersion is the BMR TOWER, BUT the price difference is huge.

Im pretty sure Philharmonic audio can do a more Lavish version from this tower for 1000$. Still the price difference is huge, but that Lavish version don't exist

Philharmonic BMR Tower Speaker Review: Strike Gold Twice?

Philharmonic Audio BMR tower is a 3-way wide dispersion speaker that scales up the performance and bass output from of their fabulous Philharmonitor previously reviewed. Read on to see if how it’s done.

www.audioholics.com

 

[CleanSound]

i guess the biggest competidor to the FR10, which shares good bass extension and wide dispersion is the BMR TOWER, BUT the price difference is huge.

Im pretty sure Philharmonic audio can do a more Lavish version from this tower for 1000$. Still the price difference is huge, but that Lavish version don't exist

Philharmonic BMR Tower Speaker Review: Strike Gold Twice?

Philharmonic Audio BMR tower is a 3-way wide dispersion speaker that scales up the performance and bass output from of their fabulous Philharmonitor previously reviewed. Read on to see if how it’s done.

www.audioholics.com

Couldn't disagree anymore. The existing version of the Philharmonic is very lavish.

The industrial design of the PS Audio is a bit of hit or miss depending on the individual. I am big into modern design and I'm meh with this design.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Couldn't disagree anymore. The existing version of the Philharmonic is very lavish.

The industrial design of the PS Audio is a bit of hot or miss depending on the individual. I am big into modern design and I'm meh with this design.

U just' can't compare the material from the foot from the FR10 vs that. Don't even close.
Is like comparing the feet from the Q series from KEF vs the Reference KEF.


Also the woofers and the tubes parts just looks way worse
Here you can see how Heco made this flagship much more good looking than the lower tiers in that woofers area

 

[CleanSound]

U just' can't compare the material from the foot from the FR10 vs that. Don't even close.
Is like comparing the feet from the Q series from KEF vs the Reference KEF.


Also the woofers and the tubes parts just looks way worse
Here you can see how Heco made this flagship much more good looking than the lower tiers in that woofers area

The stand/foot of the FR10 is made of either steel or aluminum, nother extraordinarily luxurious about that. Maybe if it was made of carbon fiber or titanium would be a different story.

Althought, supposedly the crossover parts or higher quality, but questionable if it does anything for the sound.

 

[Sokel]

Couldn't disagree anymore. The existing version of the Philharmonic is very lavish.

The industrial design of the PS Audio is a bit of hot or miss depending on the individual. I am big into modern design and I'm meh with this design.

It's unfair to compare such a big price difference when it comes to looks cause usually that's where some of the premium goes.
I really like the way Philharmonics manages to offer cheap and nice speakers,overall looks may be subjective,BUT:

It's 2024 and after a gazillion of speaker builds even DIYers know how to hide screws,etc. In low tier price range others just use same color plastic or wood automotive speaker rings which are ready made,etc,like this ones:



In higher price tags there are other solutions.
Ok,Philharmonics is not the only one but usually small companies that want to cut cost follow the same path but there are some on the high price range too,but mostly esoteric stuff.

It's these little things that seem maybe insignificant but when it comes to looks it's not,as they show a product designed from the grown up with all details in check.

 

[CleanSound]

It's unfair to compare such a big price difference when it comes to looks cause usually that's where some of the premium goes.
I really like the way Philharmonics manages to offer cheap and nice speakers,overall looks may be subjective,BUT:

It's 2024 and after a gazillion of speaker builds even DIYers know how to hide screws,etc. In low tier price range others just use same color plastic or wood automotive speaker rings which are ready made,etc,like this ones:

View attachment 358994

In higher price tags there are other solutions.
Ok,Philharmonics is not the only one but usually small companies that want to cut cost follow the same path but there are some on the high price range too,but mostly esoteric stuff.

It's these little things that seem maybe insignificant but when it comes to looks it's not,as they show a product designed from the grown up with all details in check.

I'm not sure if you are saying the FR10 has these luxurious details or not. But if Philharmonic were to sell their speakers at 5-6x of the cost of labor, material and research like most speakers are marked up for, those Philharmonic will be close to $10k as well.

I have not inspect neither of these speakers in person, so I can't see which one has more detail to attention, but from the pictures, I don't see anything special about the FR10. If you do, point them out to us.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

The stand/foot of the FR10 is made of either steel or aluminum, nother extraordinarily luxurious about that. Maybe if it was made of carbon fiber or titanium would be a different story.

Althought, supposedly the crossover parts or higher quality, but questionable if it does anything for the sound.

Nobody wants extraordinarily luxious speakers, just cool looking and good looking. steel or alum just fit the box.

 

[CleanSound]

Nobody wants extraordinarily luxious speakers, just cool looking and good looking. steel or alum just fit the box.

I do. if I had unlimited funds.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I do. if I had unlimited funds.

We*.
Thats why steel or alum check the box , its something very good in the middle.
Heco and others brands know this.

 

[CleanSound]

@BrokenEnglishGuy @Sokel

My overall sentiment for these FR10 is:

They measure pretty good, the looks is a hit or miss. But for $10k, it's swimming in a big ocean with a lot of hard hitters.

Even if they were discounted to $6k or $7k, I still wouldn't buy them. There are a lot of better options.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

To me there is no '' better options '' just competidors, this is a very well design speaker with triple radiators.

My mainly problem is their price profit from PS AUDIO, is just too much. For example the same happen to me with their dacs, pre or amps. The price is that high that just compite with the best of the market, im saying this because in my Point of view from my country i have to choose a Focal sopra floorstanding, Kef reference 3 meta, Monitor audio pl 300 3G, etc. You know these old trust brands that resell very well.

As i costumer i also value the '' history '' and the value over time, a Kef Reference 3 META or a Focal Sopra (this speaker is very old and keep selling like nothing, lol), will sell a lot easier in the market. Even the focal or kef are knows brand and made in his house not china. So you have so much bad points to value this speaker outside USA in the same category as these flagship made in house with warranty in house.


So yeah, to me it's the price where the FR10 fail, not the speaker itself. Measurements and looking, FR10 is very nice speaker. I like what Chris did with this speaker, speally the planar mid range, to me thats the key.

I guess is to early for see this speaker outside usa at good competitive price. But i like the speaker.
just my opinion as hifi buyer

 

[Sokel]

I'm not sure if you are saying the FR10 has these luxurious details or not. But if Philharmonic were to sell their speakers at 5-6x of the cost of labor, material and research like most speakers are marked up for, those Philharmonic will be close to $10k as well.

I have not inspect neither of these speakers in person, so I can't see which one has more detail to attention, but from the pictures, I don't see anything special about the FR10. If you do, point them out to us.

The most visible as I said above:Screws around the drivers.

Here's FR10,do you see any?

That shows a product designed with that in consideration too.And ups the price of course.

Now look the Philharmonic above,there's everywhere.I'm not going to go as far as another friend here who said that BRM looks as someone thrown some drivers randomly on it and I really appreciate their choice of quality drivers,etc.

But,still,the little details.

 

[CleanSound]

The most visible as I said above:Screws around the drivers.

Here's FR10,do you see any?

View attachment 358997

That shows a product designed with that in consideration too.And ups the price of course.

Now look the Philharmonic above,there's everywhere.I'm not going to go as far as another friend here who said that it looks as someone thrown some drivers randomly on it and I really appreciate their choice of quality drivers,etc.

But,still,the little details.

I also don't see any screws aside from the drivers for my $1,600 shipped Ascend Acoustics Sierra-LX neither.

For the Philharmonic, I see screws on all the drivers and I think the port too? I don't think it's a big deal. I think without seeing it in person, you can't tell the real quality and craftsmanship.

 

[Sokel]

I also don't see any screws aside from the drivers for my $1,600 shipped Ascend Acoustics Sierra-LX neither.

For the Philharmonic, I see screws on all the drivers and I think the port too? I don't think it's a big deal. I think without seeing it in person, you can't tell the real quality and craftsmanship.

This ones?

I see 4 screws in each driver and that's what I'm talking about,that's what these rings I posted above are for.
Or is it another version?