Do you know what DAC the zone2 is in the x8500? When I sent mine in, I was curious and had him test it. I just don’t know what DAC zone2/3 uses in the x8500.
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Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H
- Thread starter bigguyca
- Start date
From the service manual (you owned it), it is the PCM5100. This part seems to be the same across the line, even the Marantz AV8805A and AV7705.
I think Amir used the setting that allowed Z2/3 to "mirror" the main zone's program so it is highly possible that he actually measured the AK4490 DAC. The nosier Z2/3 pre out could be due to the different volume control IC used, it is the NJW1194.
It might have been clearer that Z2 DAC would have been used in his test if you had asked Amir to use a difference source for Z2, and via the HDMI Z2 output. Not really sure though, as the description in the manual is very convoluted if not confusing. I could have understood it better if I read it at least 5 times after 2 cups of coffee.
If you compare the NJW1194 (Z2 volume control) to the NJU72343 (volume control IC for the main zone), you can see why z2 pre out has higher distortions and noise.
Now that you mentioned this, you can see that Amir noted Z2 pre outs had a lower output voltage. I downloaded the datasheet and it turns out the NJW1194's rated output is only 2 V versus the main zone's NJU72343's 4.2 V.
This new Denon 4700 I got is just fine, but I still badly miss my Marantz 7703.Yep, so those ones I will most probably ‘skip’. Until some really new sound decoding formats will enter the ‘audio realm’, like floor channels or something like that, I feel I’m covered. Even with the PCM DAC’s…
I really think I'll be saving my penny's up for a new Marantz PrePro when something
that measures reasonably well comes down the line.
Can't help it, deep down I'm just a unrepentant Marantz fanboy.
Saul, where are you when I need you?
This new Denon 4700 I got is just fine, but I still badly miss my Marantz 7703.
I really think I'll be saving my penny's up for a new Marantz PrePro when something
that measures reasonably well comes down the line.
Can't help it, deep down I'm just a unrepentant Marantz fanboy.
Saul, where are you when I need you?
If the AMP 10 measures anywhere close to their 2 ch gear, that would be a smart investment and then wait two product cycles for the processor.
3 Generations of Marantz flagship integrated amps measured
Three Generations of Marantz flagship integrated amps measured (updated PM-10 test!) One of the biggest challenges with amplifier testing is shipping the gear without damage. We've already seen how the JBL SA600 from 1965 pretty much has an amplifier section that performs similarly to the JBL...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Or do what I do; I use the Marantz MM7025 to drive my Wharfedale front speakers. I guess that’s what matters most. Surround I play hardly ever for listening to my favorite CD’s/streams.This new Denon 4700 I got is just fine, but I still badly miss my Marantz 7703.
I really think I'll be saving my penny's up for a new Marantz PrePro when something
that measures reasonably well comes down the line.
Can't help it, deep down I'm just a unrepentant Marantz fanboy.
Saul, where are you when I need you?
Thanks for the suggestion but I'm mostly 100% surround here.
I upmix all 2 channel sources to either a 5.1 or 5.1.4 playback.
I find the latest Dolby Surround (center spread on) or Auro3D
quite acceptable for the task listening from the MLP.
While doing other things such as house chores, etc; Multi Ch Stereo
fills the room/house with a nice blend all by itself.
YMMV
I am uncomfortable verbatim quoting private correspondence. Amir was unequivocally willing to test the gear. It was approaching Christmas, however, and Amir would have needed possession longer (but not in my opinion an unreasonable amount of time) than I wanted to go without the unit. I then did not follow up with Amir after the holidays. Blame me if you want, not him.
Tie him to the stake and let him be flogged!
@GXAlan posted this info in another thread:
Not sure if there is verification that the named dac chips are correct? (All for the later, non AKM versions presumably).
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It’s pretty clear that this is an official Denon slide deck… (the other thread has the original source website with even more slides for review)
just finished reading most of this thread and ...wow.
Might just be the 'dirtiest' thread on ASR: deceit, marketing bla-bla, cover-ups, lies, legal threats. Everything behind a 'beautiful' official line from SU. Loosely 'translated': we are not going to tell you what we did but rest assured it's all beautiful"
Assuming that I got it right, the reality is:
After 'managing' all that, the SU leadership did what every brave manager does with such a mess: they sold the company. Pocketed One Billion $$. And of course everything they did was only "to enrich the lives of consumers".
As for the new 'masters', they seem even more secretive and they increased the prices of the 2023 line by ~50%.
Genius!
P.S:
many thanks for all the people who helped figure this out. Particularly for the ones who were ready to teardown their devices to find what was actually happening.
Might just be the 'dirtiest' thread on ASR: deceit, marketing bla-bla, cover-ups, lies, legal threats. Everything behind a 'beautiful' official line from SU. Loosely 'translated': we are not going to tell you what we did but rest assured it's all beautiful"
Assuming that I got it right, the reality is:
- flagship devices (Marantz 8805 AVP & Denon 8500 AVR): moderate downgrade in both DAC and ADC departments , i.e. only lost ~5Db of specsheet performance. Denon's "anniversary" A110 AVR might have escaped the SQ onslaught.
- premium devices (Marantz 8015, Denon 6700): severe DAC/ADC downgrades, 10-20Db of lost performance.
- standard devices (all the rest): the same severe SQ downgrade.
- new 2023 line: same as above.
After 'managing' all that, the SU leadership did what every brave manager does with such a mess: they sold the company. Pocketed One Billion $$. And of course everything they did was only "to enrich the lives of consumers".
As for the new 'masters', they seem even more secretive and they increased the prices of the 2023 line by ~50%.
Genius!
P.S:
many thanks for all the people who helped figure this out. Particularly for the ones who were ready to teardown their devices to find what was actually happening.
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HarmonicTHD
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Why would you call a necessary part change (DAC Chip) due to a Force Majeur event, which affected the entire industry, a swindle? Or was SU not transparent about the switch?
You do know that the AKM factory burnt down forcing all manufacturers to switch out the AKM DAC chips.
SU wasn't transparent about the switch. I don't know that they went out of their way to obfuscate it, but they certainly were not transparent about it.
Transparency would be an appended model number for units with the substitute DAC. While there are a number of parts that won't matter if changed, I believe most would agree that substituting a different DAC is a substantial enough of a change in an AVR to warrant at least issuing a revised model number. 3700P, for example.
I'm not sure I would say that using a different DAC would necessarily warrant a revised model number. But using a different DAC that brought about a significant downgrade in performance of the unit would, because people are paying a lot of money for these units, specifically because they researched the original model and made their purchasing decision based on the original level of performance.
If an auto maker produced a vehicle that was originally specified to have an engine that produced 300 hp, and later was unable to obtain the same fuel injectors, which resulted in the vehicle's output being reduced to 280 hp, I would think that the manufacturer would be obligated to promptly and openly disclose that in some manner.
My post is just an attempt to summarize this giant thread. Don't take it for granted, read the whole thread. Highly recommended for anyone who uses or wants an AVR!
Another attempt to summarize SoundUnited's ideas of 'transparency' (Masimo's too):
- 1st official press release in April 2021 about an adapter to fix HDMI issues. Free one, very nice. But no word about DAC/ADC changes.
- 2nd press release in Aug 2021 to mention that devices produced from May 2021 have upgraded/fixed HDMI boards (S/N bigger than xxxxxxx70000). Four months after the change! And still no word about DAC/ADC changes.
- After the 'DAC noise' started, there was an update in Aug 2021 (only provided to avsforum upon request). Marketing stuff like "we changed some things but rest assured that it's all super-duper ok". Not a single word about what models were affected, what was changed, when was changed or how to identify the devices with DAC (and ADC) changes.
- Apparently, all Denon/Marantz AVPs/AVRs had the same 'upgrade': new HDMI boards, new DAC boards and new ADC boards. But only the flagships (8805 and 8500) received an extra "A" model-number, all other models were left unchanged.
- SU/Masimo support answers for direct DAC questions (examples in this thread/avsforum/audioholics/etc..):
- initial answers: "it is still the same AK4458VN". Maybe it was incompetence. Or lies. Or the support people were just kept in the dark. You choose which one is 'better'.
- updated answer: "Here is our official statement regarding your inquiry. Our specific DAC info is no longer published."
- Only saw one post in this thread from someone who managed to get the DAC info from support. Only after legal threats.
- For the last 10+ years, avsforum had "official" threads for Denon/Marantz line-ups. Lots of useful/extra info in there, including DAC/ADC chips. Last one is "Official Denon 2020" and the info-flow stopped ~mid 2021. For the 2023 models, avsforum just took some random threads like "hey guys, Denon is cooking something" and renamed them "Official Denon/Marantz 2023". Zero extra info in there, just people asking questions and no one answering.
- Even now, almost 2 years later, there is still no single official word on those DAC/ADC changes. Most probably it was done at the same time with the HDMI upgrade. And the only reliable info comes from tear-downs and some (apparently) internal Denon slides which were (more or less) leaked by a french forum
Maybe that sounds like transparency for some. It surely does not for me. As far as I can see, the 'transparency' was so thick that many people started to tear-down their devices. Risking warranty loss or to brick $1000+, just to find out what they actually bought. Multiple examples in this thread alone, many thanks again guys!
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You summarized it very well in your two posts. The only one minor correction (not really necessary imo..) perhaps, would be that there has been no evidence of ADC downgrade. I think D+M has been using the AK5358 in their whole lineup from the entry models to the flagship models just not sure if they have done anything in the new 2022/23 lineups.
That ADC chip has SINAD of 92 dB, below is from the datasheet:
Given that mediocre specs, I guess D+M knows they shouldn't downgrade it further, whether it would result in audible differences or not.
AK5358 specs:
nice, didn't know that D&M was using such low level ADCs everywhere.
ADC info is even harder to find but they surely changed those chips too. The AK5358 is not even built anymore.
The Marantz 8805 teardown found a PCM1803A, probably the new ADC for all devices. Also a very basic/cheap ADC.
AK5358: SINAD 92dB, SNR 102dB
PCM1803A: SINAD 95dB, SNR 103dB
Surprise, surprise, the ADC switch can actually be called an 'upgrade'. Hooray
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nice, didn't know that D&M was using such low level ADCs everywhere.
ADC info is even harder to find but they surely changed those chips too. The AK5358 is not even built anymore.
The Marantz 8805 teardown found a PCM1803A, probably the new ADC for all devices. Also a very basic/cheap ADC.
AK5358: SINAD 92dB, SNR 102dB
PCM1803A: SINAD 95dB, SNR 103dB
Surprise, surprise, the ADC switch can actually be called an 'upgrade'. Hooray
Yeah right, a huge upgrade!
well, AFAIK this is the only SQ upgrade that D&M did since 2020.
And judging by the 2023 lineup, it'll be the only one until 2025. So, we should treasure it
P.S.
according to some bla-bla-marketing guy on youtube, the Marantz AV10 might actually be an upgrade. He said things like "completely new design" and "fully balanced". But then, it'll also cost $7000 which is ~double compared to the current 8805...
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Through sporadic reading on the subject, I assumed the Denon AVR-A110 Anniversary Edition AVR still retained the premium AKM DAC regardless of the serial number. I recently bought a near-mint condition A110 and its serial number is just a bit above the 70000 (maybe 70035? - too lazy to go and recheck). I was happy about this because it meant it had the corrected HDMI board and assumed that the DAC had not changed because Denon was using any remaining available AKM DACs for ALL of the production line of the A110s, regardless of the manufacturing date or serial number. Does anyone know for sure if this was a correct assumption?
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