Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

[Brambo67]

Not true unfortunately! "network", if using the main zone, still uses the AK4458, the PCM5100s are used for zone2 and 3. Pretty sure when Amir tested network, he was still using the main zone. If he measured the same on Z2, then he would have tested the PCM5100 that is a 2 channel DAC chip.

Why is there a ‘network’ DAC onboard then? According to one of your own postings in the initial 4700 review thread you mentioned how Marantz does it:

Denon and Marantz has been using the AK4458 for all channels but for the HDMI and optical/coax inputs only
The THD+N and DNR specs are 115 dB and -107 dB.

The PCM5100 is for the network and zone 2/3 etc.

Also the pictures of the internals in that thread show this third PCM5100. What is this (network?)DAC doing if not digital->analog converting from Apple Play (Apple Music) to Main Zone? In any case, a lot of measurements ‘User 22’ performed in the Denon DRA-800H review also showed the PCM5100A outperformed its ‘max’ specs touching acceptable mid-tier SINAD scores.

 

[peng]

Why is there a ‘network’ DAC onboard then? According to one of your own postings in the initial 4700 review thread you mentioned how Marantz does it:

Denon and Marantz has been using the AK4458 for all channels but for the HDMI and optical/coax inputs only
The THD+N and DNR specs are 115 dB and -107 dB.

The PCM5100 is for the network and zone 2/3 etc.

Also the pictures of the internals in that thread show this third PCM5100. What is this (network?)DAC doing if not digital->analog converting from Apple Play (Apple Music) to Main Zone? In any case, a lot of measurements ‘User 22’ performed in the Denon DRA-800H review also showed the PCM5100A outperformed its ‘max’ specs touching acceptable mid-tier SINAD scores.

Again, network uses the PCM5100 for zone2 and zone3. So you need 1 each for z2 and 3 and 1 more for z2 or z3 when playing "network".

It was a long time ago when I looked at the block diagrams, but if I remember right, I think it is needed bec ause you can listen to z2 or 3 and main zone at the same time but playing different sources. I can take another look of the diagrams, time permitting.

I have no idea why user22 got those good results, it is logically impossible dont you think? How can you get significantly higher SINAD overall, than the DAC chip's SINAD?

Edit: perhaps he was lucky enough to pick up a unit that has the PCM chip from a batch that has much better specs by chance, Also, if the DRA amp has the dac wired differentially, it could have noise reduced by a few dBs..at least in theory.

 

[Sal1950]

Tin foil hat conspiracy theorists are very much de rigeur nowadays...

How true

I’m happy with my 4700 and will in the future take advantage of new developments and probably better components. Until then this box will do.

My 1 month old unit sounds great to me.

But the big picture is that the new 4800 and friends have already been announced and will be all that's relevant going forward.
Time stands still for no man.

 

[Brambo67]

How true

My 1 month old unit sounds great to me.

But the big picture is that the new 4800 and friends have already been announced and will be all that's relevant going forward.
Time stands still for no man.

Yep, so those ones I will most probably ‘skip’. Until some really new sound decoding formats will enter the ‘audio realm’, like floor channels or something like that, I feel I’m covered. Even with the PCM DAC’s…

 

[Dj7675]

Not true unfortunately! "network", if using the main zone, still uses the AK4458, the PCM5100s are used for zone2 and 3. Pretty sure when Amir tested network, he was still using the main zone. If he measured the same on Z2, then he would have tested the PCM5100 that is a 2 channel DAC chip.

Do you know what DAC the zone2 is in the x8500? When I sent mine in, I was curious and had him test it. I just don’t know what DAC zone2/3 uses in the x8500.

 

[peng]

Do you know what DAC the zone2 is in the x8500? When I sent mine in, I was curious and had him test it. I just don’t know what DAC zone2/3 uses in the x8500.
View attachment 232743

From the service manual (you owned it), it is the PCM5100. This part seems to be the same across the line, even the Marantz AV8805A and AV7705.
I think Amir used the setting that allowed Z2/3 to "mirror" the main zone's program so it is highly possible that he actually measured the AK4490 DAC. The nosier Z2/3 pre out could be due to the different volume control IC used, it is the NJW1194.

It might have been clearer that Z2 DAC would have been used in his test if you had asked Amir to use a difference source for Z2, and via the HDMI Z2 output. Not really sure though, as the description in the manual is very convoluted if not confusing. I could have understood it better if I read it at least 5 times after 2 cups of coffee.

If you compare the NJW1194 (Z2 volume control) to the NJU72343 (volume control IC for the main zone), you can see why z2 pre out has higher distortions and noise.

Now that you mentioned this, you can see that Amir noted Z2 pre outs had a lower output voltage. I downloaded the datasheet and it turns out the NJW1194's rated output is only 2 V versus the main zone's NJU72343's 4.2 V.

 

[Sal1950]

Yep, so those ones I will most probably ‘skip’. Until some really new sound decoding formats will enter the ‘audio realm’, like floor channels or something like that, I feel I’m covered. Even with the PCM DAC’s…

This new Denon 4700 I got is just fine, but I still badly miss my Marantz 7703.
I really think I'll be saving my penny's up for a new Marantz PrePro when something
that measures reasonably well comes down the line.
Can't help it, deep down I'm just a unrepentant Marantz fanboy.
Saul, where are you when I need you?

 

[GXAlan]

This new Denon 4700 I got is just fine, but I still badly miss my Marantz 7703.
I really think I'll be saving my penny's up for a new Marantz PrePro when something
that measures reasonably well comes down the line.
Can't help it, deep down I'm just a unrepentant Marantz fanboy.
Saul, where are you when I need you?

If the AMP 10 measures anywhere close to their 2 ch gear, that would be a smart investment and then wait two product cycles for the processor.

3 Generations of Marantz flagship integrated amps measured

Three Generations of Marantz flagship integrated amps measured (updated PM-10 test!) One of the biggest challenges with amplifier testing is shipping the gear without damage. We've already seen how the JBL SA600 from 1965 pretty much has an amplifier section that performs similarly to the JBL...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Brambo67]

This new Denon 4700 I got is just fine, but I still badly miss my Marantz 7703.
I really think I'll be saving my penny's up for a new Marantz PrePro when something
that measures reasonably well comes down the line.
Can't help it, deep down I'm just a unrepentant Marantz fanboy.
Saul, where are you when I need you?

Or do what I do; I use the Marantz MM7025 to drive my Wharfedale front speakers. I guess that’s what matters most. Surround I play hardly ever for listening to my favorite CD’s/streams.

 

[Sal1950]

Or do what I do; I use the Marantz MM7025 to drive my Wharfedale front speakers. I guess that’s what matters most. Surround I play hardly ever for listening to my favorite CD’s/streams.

Thanks for the suggestion but I'm mostly 100% surround here.
I upmix all 2 channel sources to either a 5.1 or 5.1.4 playback.
I find the latest Dolby Surround (center spread on) or Auro3D
quite acceptable for the task listening from the MLP.
While doing other things such as house chores, etc; Multi Ch Stereo
fills the room/house with a nice blend all by itself.
YMMV

 

[beren777]

That’s what I mean. He wasn’t willing. Arguably the most popular AVRs in the world, with the biggest question mark hanging over them, needing a re-review in order to avoid misleading people from the original review and, as you mentioned a willing donor…and the opportunity wasn’t taken. I just find that strange.

I am uncomfortable verbatim quoting private correspondence. Amir was unequivocally willing to test the gear. It was approaching Christmas, however, and Amir would have needed possession longer (but not in my opinion an unreasonable amount of time) than I wanted to go without the unit. I then did not follow up with Amir after the holidays. Blame me if you want, not him.

 

[Sal1950]

I then did not follow up with Amir after the holidays. Blame me if you want, not him.

Tie him to the stake and let him be flogged!

 

[-Matt-]

From https://www.homecinema-fr.com/news-hcfr-denon-les-integres-2022_2023/

@GXAlan posted this info in another thread:

Not sure if there is verification that the named dac chips are correct? (All for the later, non AKM versions presumably).

 

[GXAlan]

@GXAlan posted this info in another thread:

Not sure if there is verification that the named dac chips are correct? (All for the later, non AKM versions presumably).

It’s pretty clear that this is an official Denon slide deck… (the other thread has the original source website with even more slides for review)

 

[lashto]

just finished reading most of this thread and ...wow.
Might just be the 'dirtiest' thread on ASR: deceit, marketing bla-bla, cover-ups, lies, legal threats. Everything behind a 'beautiful' official line from SU. Loosely 'translated': we are not going to tell you what we did but rest assured it's all beautiful"

Assuming that I got it right, the reality is:

• flagship devices (Marantz 8805 AVP & Denon 8500 AVR): moderate downgrade in both DAC and ADC departments , i.e. only lost ~5Db of specsheet performance. Denon's "anniversary" A110 AVR might have escaped the SQ onslaught.
• premium devices (Marantz 8015, Denon 6700): severe DAC/ADC downgrades, 10-20Db of lost performance.
• standard devices (all the rest): the same severe SQ downgrade.
• new 2023 line: same as above.

Hmm. A better thread title might be something like "Denon & Marantz present: the great DAC swindle of 2021".

After 'managing' all that, the SU leadership did what every brave manager does with such a mess: they sold the company. Pocketed One Billion $$. And of course everything they did was only "to enrich the lives of consumers".
As for the new 'masters', they seem even more secretive and they increased the prices of the 2023 line by ~50%.
Genius!

P.S:
many thanks for all the people who helped figure this out. Particularly for the ones who were ready to teardown their devices to find what was actually happening.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

just finished reading most of this thread and ...wow.
Might just be the 'dirtiest' thread on ASR: deceit, marketing bla-bla, cover-ups, lies, legal threats. Everything behind a 'beautiful' official line from SU. Loosely 'translated': we are not going to tell you what we did but rest assured it's all beautiful"

Assuming that I got it right, the reality is:

• flagship devices (Marantz 8805 AVP & Denon 8500 AVR): moderate downgrade in both DAC and ADC departments , i.e. only lost ~5Db of specsheet performance. Denon's "anniversary" A110 AVR might have escaped the SQ onslaught.
• premium devices (Marantz 8015, Denon 6700): severe DAC/ADC downgrades, 10-20Db of lost performance.
• standard devices (all the rest): the same severe SQ downgrade.
• new 2023 line: same as above.

Hmm. A better thread title might be something like "Denon & Marantz present: the great DAC swindle of 2021".

After 'managing' all that, the SU leadership did what every brave manager does: they sold the company. Pocketed One Billion $$. And of course everything they did was only "to enrich the lives of consumers".
As for the new 'masters', they seem even more secretive and they increased the prices of the 2023 line by ~50%.
Genius!

P.S:
many thanks for all the people who helped figure this out. Particularly for the ones who were ready to teardown their devices to find what was actually happening.

Why would you call a necessary part change (DAC Chip) due to a Force Majeur event, which affected the entire industry, a swindle? Or was SU not transparent about the switch?

You do know that the AKM factory burnt down forcing all manufacturers to switch out the AKM DAC chips.

 

[beren777]

Why would you call a necessary part change (DAC Chip) due to a Force Majeur event, which affected the entire industry, a swindle? Or was SU not transparent about the switch?

You do know that the AKM factory burnt down forcing all manufacturers to switch out the AKM DAC chips.

SU wasn't transparent about the switch. I don't know that they went out of their way to obfuscate it, but they certainly were not transparent about it.

Transparency would be an appended model number for units with the substitute DAC. While there are a number of parts that won't matter if changed, I believe most would agree that substituting a different DAC is a substantial enough of a change in an AVR to warrant at least issuing a revised model number. 3700P, for example.

 

[MarcT]

SU wasn't transparent about the switch. I don't know that they went out of their way to obfuscate it, but they certainly were not transparent about it.

Transparency would be an appended model number for units with the substitute DAC. While there are a number of parts that won't matter if changed, I believe most would agree that substituting a different DAC is a substantial enough of a change in an AVR to warrant at least issuing a revised model number. 3700P, for example.

I'm not sure I would say that using a different DAC would necessarily warrant a revised model number. But using a different DAC that brought about a significant downgrade in performance of the unit would, because people are paying a lot of money for these units, specifically because they researched the original model and made their purchasing decision based on the original level of performance.

If an auto maker produced a vehicle that was originally specified to have an engine that produced 300 hp, and later was unable to obtain the same fuel injectors, which resulted in the vehicle's output being reduced to 280 hp, I would think that the manufacturer would be obligated to promptly and openly disclose that in some manner.

 

[lashto]

Why would you call a necessary part change (DAC Chip) due to a Force Majeur event, which affected the entire industry, a swindle? Or was SU not transparent about the switch?

My post is just an attempt to summarize this giant thread. Don't take it for granted, read the whole thread. Highly recommended for anyone who uses or wants an AVR!

Spoiler: Some 'transparency' details

Another attempt to summarize SoundUnited's ideas of 'transparency' (Masimo's too):

• 1st official press release in April 2021 about an adapter to fix HDMI issues. Free one, very nice. But no word about DAC/ADC changes.
• 2nd press release in Aug 2021 to mention that devices produced from May 2021 have upgraded/fixed HDMI boards (S/N bigger than xxxxxxx70000). Four months after the change! And still no word about DAC/ADC changes.
• After the 'DAC noise' started, there was an update in Aug 2021 (only provided to avsforum upon request). Marketing stuff like "we changed some things but rest assured that it's all super-duper ok". Not a single word about what models were affected, what was changed, when was changed or how to identify the devices with DAC (and ADC) changes.
• Apparently, all Denon/Marantz AVPs/AVRs had the same 'upgrade': new HDMI boards, new DAC boards and new ADC boards. But only the flagships (8805 and 8500) received an extra "A" model-number, all other models were left unchanged.
• SU/Masimo support answers for direct DAC questions (examples in this thread/avsforum/audioholics/etc..):
  • initial answers: "it is still the same AK4458VN". Maybe it was incompetence. Or lies. Or the support people were just kept in the dark. You choose which one is 'better'.
  • updated answer: "Here is our official statement regarding your inquiry. Our specific DAC info is no longer published."
  • Only saw one post in this thread from someone who managed to get the DAC info from support. Only after legal threats.
• For the last 10+ years, avsforum had "official" threads for Denon/Marantz line-ups. Lots of useful/extra info in there, including DAC/ADC chips. Last one is "Official Denon 2020" and the info-flow stopped ~mid 2021. For the 2023 models, avsforum just took some random threads like "hey guys, Denon is cooking something" and renamed them "Official Denon/Marantz 2023". Zero extra info in there, just people asking questions and no one answering.
• Even now, almost 2 years later, there is still no single official word on those DAC/ADC changes. Most probably it was done at the same time with the HDMI upgrade. And the only reliable info comes from tear-downs and some (apparently) internal Denon slides which were (more or less) leaked by a french forum

The above are just bits and pieces that I collected/linked from various sources. If I got anything wrong, please advise!

Maybe that sounds like transparency for some. It surely does not for me. As far as I can see, the 'transparency' was so thick that many people started to tear-down their devices. Risking warranty loss or to brick $1000+, just to find out what they actually bought. Multiple examples in this thread alone, many thanks again guys!

 

[peng]

My post is just an attempt to summarize this giant thread. Don't take it for granted, read the whole thread. Highly recommended for anyone who uses or wants an AVR!

Spoiler: Some 'transparency' details

Another attempt to summarize SoundUnited's ideas of 'transparency' (Masimo's too):

• 1st official press release in April 2021 about an adapter to fix HDMI issues. Free one, very nice. But no word about DAC/ADC changes.
• 2nd press release in Aug 2021 to mention that devices produced from May 2021 have upgraded/fixed HDMI boards (S/N bigger than xxxxxxx70000). Four months after the change! And still no word about DAC/ADC changes.
• After the 'DAC noise' started, there was an update in Aug 2021 (only provided to avsforum upon request). Marketing stuff like "we changed some things but rest assured that it's all super-duper ok". Not a single word about what models were affected, what was changed, when was changed or how to identify the devices with DAC (and ADC) changes.
• Apparently, all Denon/Marantz AVPs/AVRs had the same 'upgrade': new HDMI boards, new DAC boards and new ADC boards. But only the flagships (8805 and 8500) received an extra "A" model-number, all other models were left unchanged.
• SU/Masimo support answers for direct DAC questions (examples in this thread/avsforum/audioholics/etc..):
  • initial answers: "it is still the same AK4458VN". Maybe it was incompetence. Or lies. Or the support people were just kept in the dark. You choose which one is 'better'.
  • updated answer: "Here is our official statement regarding your inquiry. Our specific DAC info is no longer published."
  • Only saw one post in this thread from someone who managed to get the DAC info from support. Only after legal threats.
• For the last 10+ years, avsforum had "official" threads for Denon/Marantz line-ups. Lots of useful/extra info in there, including DAC/ADC chips. Last one is "Official Denon 2020" and the info-flow stopped ~mid 2021. For the 2023 models, avsforum just took some random threads like "hey guys, Denon is cooking something" and renamed them "Official Denon/Marantz 2023". Zero extra info in there, just people asking questions and no one answering.
• Even now, almost 2 years later, there is still no single official word on those DAC/ADC changes. Most probably it was done at the same time with the HDMI upgrade. And the only reliable info comes from tear-downs and some (apparently) internal Denon slides which were (more or less) leaked by a french forum

The above are just bits and pieces that I collected/linked from various sources. If I got anything wrong, please advise!

Maybe that sounds like transparency for some. It surely does not for me. As far as I can see, the 'transparency' was so thick that many people started to tear-down their devices. Risking warranty loss or to brick $1000+, just to find out what they actually bought. Multiple examples in this thread alone, many thanks again guys!

You summarized it very well in your two posts. The only one minor correction (not really necessary imo..) perhaps, would be that there has been no evidence of ADC downgrade. I think D+M has been using the AK5358 in their whole lineup from the entry models to the flagship models just not sure if they have done anything in the new 2022/23 lineups.

That ADC chip has SINAD of 92 dB, below is from the datasheet:

Given that mediocre specs, I guess D+M knows they shouldn't downgrade it further, whether it would result in audible differences or not.
AK5358 specs: