Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

[bigguyca]

Per the Denon website (Google translation from Japanese) in Japan in the product information for at least the X4700H and X6700H AVR's:

"The D / A converter IC has been changed since the spring of 2021."

The previous DAC IC in the two products is the 8-channel AK4458. This is a rather significant change. The new DAC IC, brand/model, was not named in the product details.

No change was noted for the AVR's, such as the A110 and X8500H, that use the 2-channel AKM AK4490 DAC IC.

 

[peng]

Per the Denon website in Japan in the product information for at least the X4700H and X6700H AVR's:

"The D / A converter IC has been changed since the spring of 2021."

The previous DAC IC in the two products is the 8-channel AK4458. This is a rather significant change. The new DAC IC, brand/model, was not named in the product details.

No change was noted for the AVR's, such as the A110 and X8500H, that use the 2-channel AKM AK4490 DAC IC.

So I guess people who cares about the DAC IC, should find out what serial numbers are for those produced in the "spring"? It may be safer to wait until 2021 imo, by then hopefully the know bugs are fixed, and we may know more about the replacement DAC IC, and may even have some measurements to looked at.

 

[mSpot]

Denon likely had to switch to a different DAC because of AKM parts unavailability.
https://www.strata-gee.com/akm-fire...-faces-severe-shortage-of-key-imaging-models/

 

[bigguyca]

So I guess people who cares about the DAC IC, should find out what serial numbers are for those produced in the "spring"? It may be safer to wait until 2021 imo, by then hopefully the know bugs are fixed, and we may know more about the replacement DAC IC, and may even have some measurements to looked at.

Here is the full announcement, again from the Denon website in Japan. (Translated from Japanese by Google Translator.)

NOTICE CONCERNING D/A CONVERTER CHANGES FOR SOME PRODUCTS

4 02, 2021

Due to the fire at Asahi Kasei Electronics Co., Ltd.'s semiconductor manufacturing plant on October 20, 2020, it has become difficult to continuously procure semiconductor components, including D/A converters, which are used in some of our products. We have continued to produce products using parts inventory already held by our company and parts newly procured from the market, but since it is expected that it will be difficult to resume supply of such parts at an early time, we have changed to replacement parts and have agreed to continue production.
Since D/A converters are components that have a particularly significant impact on the sound quality of products, we selected alternative components, redesigned peripheral circuits and software, evaluated sound quality by sound master, and performed sound tuning in the same process as when the new product was developed. As a result, it is now possible to continue delivering products of the same quality as before the D/A converter change while maintaining the same sound quality, performance, and functionality as the previous products.
We will continue to make every effort to deliver products that satisfy our customers, so thank you very much.

Products subject to D/A converter changes

• AV Amplifiers: AVC-X6700H,AVR-X4700H,AVR-X2700H,AVR-X1600H

 

[peng]

Here is the full announcement, again from the Denon website in Japan. (Translated from Japanese by Google Translator.)

NOTICE CONCERNING D/A CONVERTER CHANGES FOR SOME PRODUCTS

4 02, 2021

Due to the fire at Asahi Kasei Electronics Co., Ltd.'s semiconductor manufacturing plant on October 20, 2020, it has become difficult to continuously procure semiconductor components, including D/A converters, which are used in some of our products. We have continued to produce products using parts inventory already held by our company and parts newly procured from the market, but since it is expected that it will be difficult to resume supply of such parts at an early time, we have changed to replacement parts and have agreed to continue production.
Since D/A converters are components that have a particularly significant impact on the sound quality of products, we selected alternative components, redesigned peripheral circuits and software, evaluated sound quality by sound master, and performed sound tuning in the same process as when the new product was developed. As a result, it is now possible to continue delivering products of the same quality as before the D/A converter change while maintaining the same sound quality, performance, and functionality as the previous products.
We will continue to make every effort to deliver products that satisfy our customers, so thank you very much.

Products subject to D/A converter changes

• AV Amplifiers: AVC-X6700H,AVR-X4700H,AVR-X2700H,AVR-X1600H

Thank you very much. Now we have a good reason to ask Amir to test another Denon or Marantz but preferably Denon, so we can see if the DAC IC would make a difference. I still think it won't gain or lose more than a couple dB of SINAD, there aren't too much IC they can use that won't over shadow the AK4490 and the two that have the AK4490, AVR-X8500H and AV8805 did not do a whole lot better. That is, unless there are other changes made such as the volume control IC, though there wasn't a New Japan Radio factory fire.

 

[Ron Texas]

There's nothing magic about AKM.

 

[MZKM]

The PMA-A110 uses Burr-Brown (Texas Instruments).

So, likely contender over ESS. I wonder if they chose it over ESS due to any influence from AKM.

 

[bigguyca]

There's nothing magic about AKM.

Unfortunately there is some "magic" about AKM DAC's. Of the premium AKM DAC's only the new AK4499 is a current output DAC. The remainder of the AKM DAC's are voltage output DAC's.

Voltage output DAC's are less expensive to implement than current output DAC's. Current output DAC's require I/V converters, which in the case of higher level DAC's should include high performance, more expensive opamps. The added opamps would require more board space, added power, and generate more heat. For the seemly thousands of PRC two-channel DAC's this isn't huge issue, but becomes really significant for multi-channel products.

AKM managed to get very good to excellent performance, and robust 2V output, from a voltage output DAC.

That companies such as RME used AKM voltage output DAC's shows that these are excellent products.

The top DAC IC's from ESS for example are current output DAC's and require I/V converters for best performance, as are TI's. AKM also made excellent ADC IC's and other products. Per memory Audio Precision uses ADC IC's for example. AKM of course made lots of other products as well that are now missed by customers.

AKM is a sad case for the industry and customers. AKM's website formerly bragged that that AKM was highly vertically integrated and did almost everything onsite. This high-risk approach along with an apparent complete lack of a disaster preparedness program continue to make its products available, led to this mess.

 

[Ron Texas]

@bigguyca thanks for the impolite lecture. The 4458 is voltage output so stop breaking my chops.

 

[MarsianC#]

As written here (after crossposting this thread), it seems like TI's PCM5102A is used as replacement.
@amirm, we need to test everything again :/
But I guess one AVR is enough to show the trend.

 

[peng]

As written here (after crossposting this thread), it seems like TI's PCM5102A is used as replacement.
@amirm, we need to test everything again :/
But I guess one AVR is enough to show the trend.

I hope those guys are wrong (pretty sure they are wrong), because it would be a downgrade and it is a stereo DAC chip. If that's the one, then SINAD for the DAC measurement will be lower by a few dB.

PCM5102A THD spec is -93 dB, so expect the best possible measured SINAD will be about 93 dB at best, most likely a few dB less. If I were to take a guess, it won't be that one because for lower performance, it may actually cost Denon more to use a two channel DAC IC. Denon and Marantz has been using 2 channel DAC ICs in their flagship AVR (Denon) and AVP (Marantz) only. All other models including the non flagship AVP such as the AV7705 has been getting the 8 channel DACs.

If I were to take a guess, the likely replacement would be the ES9006, same as Yamaha models below the their flagship and the specs are very comparable to the AK4458. Implementation would be different, but in the notice posted, it does say" redesigned peripheral circuits ".

A sure way to find out is for someone who just purchase one to find out, but first we need to know how to identify the ones with the new DAC board, that may be tough. Or Amir can contact his United Sound and convince them to release the info. If it is a better spec DAC, or even equivalents such as the ES9006, they would be wise to let people know, otherwise it may hurt their sales a little, just a little because not everyone is as picky as people like us ASR members.

If it is used for Z2, Z3 like Yamaha's, then it is an upgrade Denon has been using the PCM5101, differences are shown below, from the datasheet:

 

[BsdKurt]

Wouldn't the firmware need to be different for AK4458 and whatever replaces it? Perhaps the firmware version will let us know if a unit is using AK4458 or its replacement.

 

[MarsianC#]

I hope those guys are wrong

As he stated no source.... no one knows.
I would love to see ES9026pro's and SINAD 110+ dB

 

[Spinitch]

The TI was an initial rumor in Japan following the announcement by Denon a few weeks ago. テキサス・インスツルメンツPCM5102A. The rumors pulled from PhileWeb and Kakaku, suggests unsubstantiated. Denon indicates on their website replacement will be of equivalent performance as previous. No details on new IC.
2021年春頃よりD/AコンバーターICを変更しています。DACは製品の音質に特に大きな影響を与える部品であるため、その変更に際しましては、回路の再設計およびサウンドチューニングを新製品の開発時と同様のプロセスで行い、DACの変更後も以前の製品と同等の音質、性能、機能を維持したまま、引き続き従来と変わらぬ品質の製品をお届けしています。

 

[LTig]

Thank you very much. Now we have a good reason to ask Amir to test another Denon or Marantz but preferably Denon, so we can see if the DAC IC would make a difference. I still think it won't gain or lose more than a couple dB of SINAD, there aren't too much IC they can use that won't over shadow the AK4490 and the two that have the AK4490, AVR-X8500H and AV8805 did not do a whole lot better. That is, unless there are other changes made such as the volume control IC, though there wasn't a New Japan Radio factory fire.

I don't think the DAC change leads to significant changes in SINAD. Mostly it's the analogue chain after the DAC chip which limits the performance of an AVR or AVP.

 

[peng]

I don't think the DAC change leads to significant changes in SINAD. Mostly it's the analogue chain after the DAC chip which limits the performance of an AVR or AVP.

That would be true if the likes/equivalents of the AK4458 is used because it's specified SINAD is better than what Amir measured on the bench. If it is (thank goodness it is not per post#14) the PCM5102A that has THD specified -93 dB, then the measured SINAD on ASR's test bench will not be better than -93 dB. Not that it matters in terms of audible difference, but SINAD would definitely change by at least a few dB, some may consider that not significant but some may.

 

[maverickronin]

When starting from scratch, the choice of DAC chip is usually not huge deal since there are many choices that can give equivalent performance.

Having to make a running change due to the original chip becoming unavailable is a different story. It's considerably more likely that the implementation of the new chip will be subpar because it's rushed.

Or at least that's what I'd be worried about...

 

[Legal-Alien]

I just opened the cover of my last week delivered new X4700 to check the DACs:

3 x PCM5100A (2 Ch D/A )
1 x AKM 5358 ( for 2 Ch A/D )

So, as far as I understand I have found downgraded D/A-Converters for 6 channels. Where are the other missing channels?

Edit:
The PCM5100A are for Zone 2+3 only.
The DACs for Mainzone are on the 2nd board which I was not able to see unless you remove the first board.
Sorry.

 

[peng]

I just opened the cover of my last week delivered new X4700 to check the DACs:

3 x PCM5100A (2 Ch D/A )
1 x AKM 5358 ( for 2 Ch A/D )

So, as far as I understand I have found downgraded D/A-Converters for 6 channels. Where are the other missing channels?

Edit:
The PCM5100A are for Zone 2+3 only.
The DACs for Mainzone are on the 2nd board which I was not able to see unless you remove the first board.
Sorry.

Is there a date stamp on the box?

 

[Legal-Alien]

No date stamp on the box or on the AVR.
Serial No. gives no information about manufacturing date (at least for me).