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Comparison of Dirac Live Bass Control (DLBC) and Dirac ART for all known AVRs/Processors

pogo

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Listen to the video: Link
DLART is set for the T789.
 

Slare

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Chances are that Marantz/Denon will come up with such product sooner based on their current offerings.
I'm a long time Denon user and have generally purchased the 4xxx class products. Overall, once they got to XT32 with dual sub capability, I have been very happy with the results.

Dirac is very attractive to me and I would like to try it, but the number of offerings, constant changes, and piecemeal approach make it far too big of an investment to risk for just a try out. After doing more research into than I should have to, I've basically decided the only real attractive way to use it on a 3800/4800 is for full range 2.0 stereo. Maybe I'm out of touch with how premium of a product Dirac is, but when you're talking about doubling the price of the AVR itself for a 1-time locked license, it shouldn't be confusing.

I hope Denon and Dirac realize this and do something to streamline their offerings in the next year models, instead of all these parts and options do something to pull one package together that does everything XT32 does (full correction w/ multi subs) and streamline it. No guessing about what the box is doing or if you have bought the right options. Clear it up.

Yes, I know it is an option. And yes, I'm glad to have options as opposed to not. But if they want the AVR market to accept their product, they need to take some effort to streamline it well enough for at least above average AVR users to be able to decipher it.

Right now I think lots of folks are trying it and finding it a waste of money because they didn't buy everything they really needed, or don't understand what the box is doing. I kind of hate saying this, but at least one of the options needs to be a complete package covering everything XT32 does.
 

Vacceo

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I'm a long time Denon user and have generally purchased the 4xxx class products. Overall, once they got to XT32 with dual sub capability, I have been very happy with the results.

Dirac is very attractive to me and I would like to try it, but the number of offerings, constant changes, and piecemeal approach make it far too big of an investment to risk for just a try out. After doing more research into than I should have to, I've basically decided the only real attractive way to use it on a 3800/4800 is for full range 2.0 stereo. Maybe I'm out of touch with how premium of a product Dirac is, but when you're talking about doubling the price of the AVR itself for a 1-time locked license, it shouldn't be confusing.

I hope Denon and Dirac realize this and do something to streamline their offerings in the next year models, instead of all these parts and options do something to pull one package together that does everything XT32 does (full correction w/ multi subs) and streamline it. No guessing about what the box is doing or if you have bought the right options. Clear it up.

Yes, I know it is an option. And yes, I'm glad to have options as opposed to not. But if they want the AVR market to accept their product, they need to take some effort to streamline it well enough for at least above average AVR users to be able to decipher it.

Right now I think lots of folks are trying it and finding it a waste of money because they didn't buy everything they really needed, or don't understand what the box is doing. I kind of hate saying this, but at least one of the options needs to be a complete package covering everything XT32 does.
A couple weeks Dirac license to try it would not hurt, I´d say.
 

dlaloum

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I'm a long time Denon user and have generally purchased the 4xxx class products. Overall, once they got to XT32 with dual sub capability, I have been very happy with the results.

Dirac is very attractive to me and I would like to try it, but the number of offerings, constant changes, and piecemeal approach make it far too big of an investment to risk for just a try out. After doing more research into than I should have to, I've basically decided the only real attractive way to use it on a 3800/4800 is for full range 2.0 stereo. Maybe I'm out of touch with how premium of a product Dirac is, but when you're talking about doubling the price of the AVR itself for a 1-time locked license, it shouldn't be confusing.

I hope Denon and Dirac realize this and do something to streamline their offerings in the next year models, instead of all these parts and options do something to pull one package together that does everything XT32 does (full correction w/ multi subs) and streamline it. No guessing about what the box is doing or if you have bought the right options. Clear it up.

Yes, I know it is an option. And yes, I'm glad to have options as opposed to not. But if they want the AVR market to accept their product, they need to take some effort to streamline it well enough for at least above average AVR users to be able to decipher it.

Right now I think lots of folks are trying it and finding it a waste of money because they didn't buy everything they really needed, or don't understand what the box is doing. I kind of hate saying this, but at least one of the options needs to be a complete package covering everything XT32 does.

Just a note... XT32 uses SubEQHT to level match and time align (adjust for difference in distance to MLP) multiple subs - then treats them as a single sub in subsequent tuning XOvers, etc...

DLBC does something more - and reports are that its results are superior... in Upmix mode it does the same as SubEQHT (Included in XT32), but in Full Bass Optimisation mode it tunes the combined speakers and subs together - see https://www.stereophile.com/content...Bass Control (DLBC,a beta version for Windows.

Dirac ART is a complete paradigm shift, and theoretically a major step up in potential performance / Room Tuning

So benefits from XT32 vs Dirac & DLBC can be variable, and a well setup XT32 system can match many (but not all) DLBC systems.

Seems to me that the benefits of DLBC are tangible (from peoples reviews - I have yet to try it myself) - but Audyssey has no answer to Dirac ART (and no indication that it ever will have)

Reading the tea leaves/crystal ball, it seems likely that D&M will be the first mainstream/mass-market manufacturer to support ART...

Others known to be "in the pipeline" include the Monoprice AVP... and rumours swirl around NAD and Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer but there are no confirmations.

Chances are, Denon will have the ART mainstream market to itself in 2024 (other than StormAudio - but they are in a completely different market segment).
 

Miker 1102

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Correction:
T789 is the prototype identification.
T799 will probably be the series identification
It will be bug addled and problematic. Whether it sounds great , that's what I hope for the end users but most of them will end up with the major like masimo and onkyo, maybe Yamaha will finall wake up fro the 80s dream of dsp nirvava they gave been carrying. ..Nad has very little of tha avr market. I hope they are able affect the next step in audio before I sink another 1k in this game. Right now, atmos is neat but it's not earth shattering. I am reaching saturation point for upgrading. Between atmos, 4k blu ray, and dts music up mixed in neural x..I have never had access to so much incredible stuff. It is amazing, really. I used remember having a 4 head vcr that could play in stereo and I thought I was living back then.
 

pogo

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The mainstream AVRs with class-AB output stages will cause problems with DLART in particular, as artefacts due to compression can occur during co-optimisation.
 

pogo

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I am talking about this AVR class: Link
In my opinion, these AVRs are unsuitable for DLART in most cases unless you are working with potent external power amplifiers: Link
DLART depends on uncompressed counter-sound and of course the original acoustic sound at all volume levels and preferably from all speakers in full-range!
 
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dlaloum

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I am talking about this AVR class: Link
In my opinion, these AVRs are unsuitable for DLART in most cases unless you are working with potent external power amplifiers: Link
DLART depends on uncompressed counter-sound and of course the original acoustic sound at all volume levels and preferably from all speakers in full-range!
Regardless of the amp used, you will primarily encounter compression from speakers rather than amps - typically compression in the amp (like most flaws) will show up only if it is driven outside of its designed performance envelope - if you ask for it to provide more voltage than it can, or more current than it can - then you will encounter various types of distortion.

But no halfway decent design (and ClassAB has been a well sorted and documented system for many decades now!) will compress.

In fact, typical AB amps will provide far more headroom above and beyond their rated power, than a typical classD amp will - Class D's will normally max out at their rated power - with little or no headroom beyond that - where classAB will provide several additional db of headroom - making them less prone to compression than their equally power rated classD amps!

However, in todays marketplace, with todays technology, you may be able to find a 200W ClassD at the same price as a 100W ClassAB.... in which case, yeah, the ClassD is the better value - and less prone to compression indeed.
 

pogo

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For mainstream AVRs, class-D has a clear advantage here and this will become apparent under DLART. What is already audible today without DLART, i.e. less compression/more load stable with class-d, will not become any easier for mainstream AVRs in the future (co-optimization):



This will not happen with a T778 or a T799:
Multichannel Amplifier Power Response
I ran a test where I increased the number of channels driven from 1 to 5 channels using 8 ohm impedance (did not want to press my luck with 4 ohm load):

View attachment 74998

Above is using 1% THD+N. You still have over 100 watts of output with all five channels running.

The testing as is standard in the industry is at 1 kHz. I thought I run a sweep from 20 Hz to 20 kHz and step through the channels just the same. Alas, after adding the third channel, the AVR went into protection mode immediately and shut down. This tells me the actual available power in bass where most of the action is, is lower than the above bar chart indicates.
 
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dlaloum

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For mainstream AVRs, class-D has a clear advantage here and this will become apparent under DLART. What is already audible today without DLART, i.e. less compression/more load stable with class-d, will not become any easier for mainstream AVRs in the future (co-optimization):



This will not happen with a T778 or a T799:
You still have not explained how this relates to amp class...
 

pogo

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Mainstream AVRs have a certain size/volume. Here you can see in reality where the classes differ. The different PSU architecture and the power dissipation play a role, which clearly speak in favour of current class-D AVRs. A low EPDR is also not an issue here but for mainstream class-AB AVRs.
Power cube measurements or reactive load tests can reveal differences if all channels are loaded simultaneously.
These measurements would be indicative of DLART capability. DLART assumes compression-free playback at any volume. This distinguishes the co-optimization from other correction systems.
An AVR similar to the Denon I mentioned as example does not seem to be suitable.
 
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dlaloum

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Mainstream AVRs have a certain size/volume. Here you can see in reality where the classes differ. The different PSU architecture and the power dissipation play a role, which clearly speak in favour of current class-D AVRs. A low EPDR is also not an issue here but for mainstream class-AB AVRs.
Power cube measurements or reactive load tests can reveal differences if all channels are loaded simultaneously.
These measurements would be indicative of DLART capability. DLART assumes compression-free playback at any volume. This distinguishes the co-optimization from other correction systems.
An AVR similar to the Denon I mentioned as example does not seem to be suitable.
Typically the difference comes down to the power supply and not the amp topology ...

If the power supply can provide the required voltage and current - then all is fine... If it runs out of "steam" - then things get messy.

Mainstream AVR's almost always "cheap out" on the power supply - giving them impressive specs into 8ohm loads (where mostly only Voltage is required) - but often failing into 4ohm or lower impedances and reactive loads... (where much more current is required)

Will the NAD's have a robust power supply? - We shall see!
The Flagship models from Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Integra, Pioneer all have substantial power supplies.... and cope well with difficult reactive loads. (the next tier down from the flagships for all of these brands, do not do so well!)
 

pogo

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I have just read a test report about the X6800H. A very low DF of 18 was determined here. This should not make the co-optimization any easier :facepalm:
 

tctlrld

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Anyone hearing any rumors of what Arcam is going to do around DLART support?
 

dlaloum

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Anyone hearing any rumors of what Arcam is going to do around DLART support?
Nope.

and now that Harman is part of the Samsung family - it may be part of an overall strategy

Would be nice to know what the roadmap is for JBL, Arcam, Crown, Lexicon, Mark Levinson.... (and how they fit in a picture where they are now brethren with Samsung and B&O)

Having mentioned B&O, it would be interesting to know how ART interacts in an environment where the active speakers already have some form of onboard RoomEQ... do you use the speakers EQ first and then Dirac? or Do you disable the speakers RoomEQ and let central Dirac-ART do all the work?
 

little-endian

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Full 40 Gbps HDMI 2.1 across all 6 inputs.
Well, "full" in terms of "what's currently possible / used by sources", I would rather use that for 48 Gbps and not 40 Gbps, as apparently there is still no AVR which supports YCbCr 4:4:4 / RGB @ 12 bit per color channel (for 2160p120 anyway). Same for HDMI splitters according to "Feintech" which raises the question how TVs do it then which after all take such signals and output the audio via eARC.

While it could be counter-argued that 12 bit or even 10 bit per color channel is unnecessary (given proper dithering, even 7-8 bit may suffice, HDR included), technically and psychologically it's still a pity.
 

Bulldogger

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Theta Digital is working on Dirac Art to bring to the Casablanca V. It will run at 24/96 like the previous versions of Dirac that Theta has used. ETA? I'm not sure. I am fairly certain it will be released this year. I expect it to be released within the next few months, but Theta has not given an exact date. It is in active and intense development, that much I know for sure.
 
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