Home theater receiver options...everything seems to have compromises this year...thoughts? recommendations?

[danzilla31]

What is the best choice between 6700h and 4800h in terms o real quality of sound? I have read long debates regarding several versions of 6700h, I have not yet found a review on this forum about 4800h, but from your knowledge and experience, what would be the firm recommendation?

Do us a favor please post when you decide on what you want you've got me curious on what you choose to purchase and I'd enjoy hearing your opinion on the gear after you set it up

 

[GXAlan]

The new Sony ES receivers look very promising. The STR-ZA5000es from 7 years ago only had a regulatory sticker of 500W power consumption or so but was able to deliver a lot more in actual measurements and for the era, the STR-ZA1100ES beat out a lot of 5 year old receivers for SINAD.

If Sony had appropriately upped the DAC portion and maintained the amplification, it would be a good option.

The weakness is Sony’s room correction. We are seeing a brand new setup with 3D microphone technology adopted by Trinnov and Yamaha. The HT-A9 room correction is the most advanced “home theater in a box” room correction and the new AZ series is supposed to offer some similar capabilities.

 

[Chrispy]

The new Sony ES receivers look very promising. The STR-ZA5000es from 7 years ago only had a regulatory sticker of 500W power consumption or so but was able to deliver a lot more in actual measurements and for the era, the STR-ZA1100ES beat out a lot of 5 year old receivers for SINAD.

If Sony had appropriately upped the DAC portion and maintained the amplification, it would be a good option.

The weakness is Sony’s room correction. We are seeing a brand new setup with 3D microphone technology adopted by Trinnov and Yamaha. The HT-A9 room correction is the most advanced “home theater in a box” room correction and the new AZ series is supposed to offer some similar capabilities.

Generally the power consumption rating these days is not equivalent to the max capacity of the power supply, it's about conforming to that regulation's spec, like in this article on the subject.

 

[Sal1950]

The HT-A9 room correction is the most advanced “home theater in a box” room correction and the new AZ series is supposed to offer some similar capabilities.

Not that I doubt you or them but that's what Dirac ART claims, Storm using Dirac Live + DRBC in their $13,000 processor claims, Anthem's ARC Genisis, etc, etc, etc.
It's a revolving door. I'm not even thinking of looking for something really any better than my Audyssey XT32 + Editor app for a few years.

 

[GXAlan]

Not that I doubt you or them but that's what Dirac ART claims, Storm using Dirac Live + DRBC in their $13,000 processor claims, Anthem's ARC Genisis, etc, etc, etc.
It's a revolving door. I'm not even thinking of looking for something really any better than my Audyssey XT32 + Editor app for a few years.

I’m a big fan of XT32 and iOS editor app too. (esp. with Ratbuddysey). I had the NR1608 and X3500H backed by Accuphase amplification at one point.

That said, I personally owned the Sherwood R962 with Trinnov, the Sony STR-ZA5000ES with stereo mics, and the Yamaha CX-A5100 with the four position 3D measurement and have a colleague, who isn’t into audio, who has the HT-A9 for his home theater. My subs have been JL Audio, Revel, and Velodyne Digital Drive with some form of PEQ on the unit itself so I am less dependent on perfect sub EQ on the AVR.

The Sony and Yamaha gear do a really nice job of giving you a better sound field for poorly placed speakers. They don’t eq as precisely as XT32, but if you like the tonality of your speakers, the ability for those flavors of room correction to make your poorly placed speakers disappear is really incredible. What’s nice is that Sony and Yamaha play at consumer pricing whereas Dirac Art and Trinnov are really disproportionately priced. Better stated, if you have the budget for Trinnov, you probably have the budget for a home theater with proper speaker placement.

ARC Genesis and plain Dirac just use a mono microphone so they cannot map the speaker in 3D space. Previous generation Sony had stereo mic which allows them to estimate in 2D space the angle of the speaker. There is a known distance to each of the mics, so then it becomes two intersecting circles and it’s easy to guess if the speaker is the front or rear of the two intersecting points. No info on Z axis.

Trinnov has a quad channel microphone connected via Ethernet style jack whereas Sony 2023 models and Yamaha YPAO RSC 64-bit models both have a plastic tripod that places the mic in very specific positions. Instead of Trinnov single seat measurement with four mics, Sony makes you do two measures in two positions and Yamaha makes you do four measurements in four positions.

Importantly, when talking about different positions these aren’t seating positions but the equivalent of Trinnov’s approach of making sure the measurements of each microphone are at known predefined physical positions for localization.

With four positions, you now have four intersecting spheres which is basically like GPS mathematics.

No one has had true hands on with Sony AZ. It’s not clear what is measured and what is inputted but one measurement that can be inputed is for the main listening position is distance from ear to ceiling and ear to floor. That said, HT-A9 is pretty impressive and it has stereo mics in each of the speakers! Speaker wise they are “mid-fi” in terms of tweeter and woofer. It’s the way they sound like properly placed speakers which is great.

 

[Sal1950]

I wonder what this ultra-tech DRC will look like in another 10-20 years.
All this extreme complication, but for the average user they need to work much harder on the automagic software side.
For now I happy with XT32+Editor and soon I'll be gone anyhow. LOL

 

[techsamurai]

What audiophile worth his DAC would use a TV and ARC as the source for high
quality Atmos delivery ?

Does it make a difference? If you're using Google TV on a Sony, wouldn't you have to use eArc for all streaming services? Would that be inferior to connecting an Apple TV straight to the AVR?

 

[techsamurai]

No one has had true hands on with Sony AZ. It’s not clear what is measured and what is inputted but one measurement that can be inputed is for the main listening position is distance from ear to ceiling and ear to floor. That said, HT-A9 is pretty impressive and it has stereo mics in each of the speakers! Speaker wise they are “mid-fi” in terms of tweeter and woofer. It’s the way they sound like properly placed speakers which is great.

How would someone measure the quality of the room correction of new Sony AV Receivers vs Dirac? Does anyone do that? It would be specific to a room of course.

People have been impressed by the HT-A9 - I wasn't aware that they have stereo mics but it makes sense that the calibration is dependent on the mic technology and the data you feed it.

There's one video on how to do Audyssey and I think they recommended doing one central seat and moving the mic slightly along the seat by a few inches. I just ran it in 3 or 4 seats and of course the result is going to be wildly different every time you run it

 

[GXAlan]

How would someone measure the quality of the room correction of new Sony AV Receivers vs Dirac? Does anyone do that? It would be specific to a room of course.

People have been impressed by the HT-A9 - I wasn't aware that they have stereo mics but it makes sense that the calibration is dependent on the mic technology and the data you feed it.

There's one video on how to do Audyssey and I think they recommended doing one central seat and moving the mic slightly along the seat by a few inches. I just ran it in 3 or 4 seats and of course the result is going to be wildly different every time you run it

I don’t know how to measure sound field and “virtual speakers” unless you also had your own mic array. You can measure the downsides but possibly not the position.

Room correction is
A) reduce bass nodes
B) flatten EQ
C) time and distance align

And then for some,
D) virtual speaker relocation.

That’s generally based on the same tech as phantom centers although the R972 Trinnov would put center channel audio on the rear sometimes (very subtly).

A and B are easy to measure and Sony/Yamaha do a poor job of B and aren’t aggressive with A. They are good for D, when considering they are almost 1/10th the price of Trinnov.

So many mainstream reviews talk about testing the system with the feature disabled. What is sort of dumb with Yamaha is that the 3D measurements are disabled by default. You have to specify that you want 3D measurements.

The moving mic technique is averaging room nodes which is good for every system. What you want is an array of measurements that are averaged not just a single measurement.

I wonder what this ultra-tech DRC will look like in another 10-20 years.
All this extreme complication, but for the average user they need to work much harder on the automagic software side.
For now I happy with XT32+Editor and soon I'll be gone anyhow. LOL

The HT-A9 is pretty close to what we might expect. Those speakers have microphones. I could imagine someone putting on headphones which really have an array of microphones and sitting in all of the positions you listen to. They then will ask you to take a photo of your room and it will figure out everything else for you

 

[peng]

How would someone measure the quality of the room correction of new Sony AV Receivers vs Dirac? Does anyone do that? It would be specific to a room of course.

That's the problem when people often say how one is so much better than the other, without supporting measurable/verifiable measurements its mostly talks, and are highly subjective too.

It would be great to have studies that compare measurable performance, such as measuring the FR within some sort of a predetermined listening bubble, aside from the mmp and a few other mic positions. I have never seen even such simple measurements, let alone more detailed ones.

All we see are what people posted, mostly the predicted graphs, with the so call before vs after correction FRs, and those are just based on "predicted" by the software and are for either just the mmp or the averaged over the mic positions used, regardless, they are not real, but predicted, so some may be very close to being real while others may not be. Also, as you alluded, to, performance shown by those posted graphs may be very specific to a room. For example, in my room, ARC Genesis just could not do it right in the below 60 Hz range, yet Dirac and Audyssey don't seem to have much problem. Yet in other people's room, based on the graphs they posted, some don't have the problem, while others also complained about losing the deep bass.

 

[techsamurai]

That's the problem when people often say how one is so much better than the other, without supporting measurable/verifiable measurements its mostly talks, and are highly subjective too.

It would be great to have studies that compare measurable performance, such as measuring the FR within some sort of a predetermined listening bubble, aside from the mmp and a few other mic positions. I have never seen even such simple measurements, let alone more detailed ones.

All we see are what people posted, mostly the predicted graphs, with the so call before vs after correction FRs, and those are just based on "predicted" by the software and are for either just the mmp or the averaged over the mic positions used, regardless, they are not real, but predicted, so some may be very close to being real while others may not be. Also, as you alluded, to, performance shown by those posted graphs may be very specific to a room. For example, in my room, ARC Genesis just could not do it right in the below 60 Hz range, yet Dirac and Audyssey don't seem to have much problem. Yet in other people's room, based on the graphs they posted, some don't have the problem, while others also complained about losing the deep bass.

Yeah, I'm surprised that no one has done a review of 2 channel performance checking which one is better. I think Marantz may be the perfect test for that as it will support both and you can just take measurements of Audyssey and then Dirac. You could take the speaker performance in stereo or direct, then apply Audyssey and Dirac and check the response and then do a sound comparison.

 

[Sal1950]

Does it make a difference? If you're using Google TV on a Sony, wouldn't you have to use eArc for all streaming services? Would that be inferior to connecting an Apple TV straight to the AVR?

Maybe not but I really have no idea how the signal path is being handled inside a TV.
Just kind of a 'audiophile code' to use the simplest straightest path.

 

[GXAlan]

Maybe not but I really have no idea how the signal path is being handled inside a TV.
Just kind of a 'audiophile code' to use the simplest straightest path.

I think that is only valid for analog signals and things that aren’t reclocked or decoded with error correction.

Anything that gets processed with DTS or Dolby decoding doesn’t matter if it went through the tv or not, provided the TV is not intentionally modifying the data.

Old school Dolby Digital uses Reed-Solomon error correction. Voyager space probes also used Reed Solomon error corrrxtion for transmitting analog data at far greater distances than any audiophile setup

Once converted to analog or raw digital data, signal paths can matter.

 

[Sal1950]

That's the problem when people often say how one is so much better than the other, without supporting measurable/verifiable measurements its mostly talks, and are highly subjective too.

Amen! When using 2 DRC systems, who's sole purpose is to modify the signal, it's a very tuff job to make comparisons.

It would be great to have studies that compare measurable performance, such as measuring the FR within some sort of a predetermined listening bubble, aside from the mmp and a few other mic positions. I have never seen even such simple measurements, let alone more detailed ones.

How about measuring the SINAD, THD, all the basics; of a AVR with and without DRC?
I'm no engineer but it seems like we're missing something?

Anything that gets processed with DTS or Dolby decoding doesn’t matter if it went through the tv or not, provided the TV is not intentionally modifying the data.

There-in lies the rub.
Intentionally or unintentionally, without measurements we don't know.
I get what your saying, I just wouldn't use my TV for source switching if I can use a straighter path.
YMMV

 

[Vacceo]

I wonder what this ultra-tech DRC will look like in another 10-20 years.
All this extreme complication, but for the average user they need to work much harder on the automagic software side.
For now I happy with XT32+Editor and soon I'll be gone anyhow. LOL

Be patient for that. Your post make me smile.

Maybe not but I really have no idea how the signal path is being handled inside a TV.
Just kind of a 'audiophile code' to use the simplest straightest path.

I can set my TV to bitstream, hence, we can assume the digital data is not processed, just passed.

 

[Andysu]

as ex retired professional projectionist . know what to look for , listen for and feel for .

most avr avp today are , only fit for the headless panther and the cat litter box .

trinnov i wouldn't touch it with barge pole . denon marnatz , yamaha , onkyo ,these ' storm audio , the whole lot i wouldn't even put a trinnov32 into a dog cat recuse shelter .

dolby dsu is the most garbage trash i ever listened to in 34 years ! its flawed it has bugs . centre sound whooshy on denon avc-x8500h i guess if i connected or bothered to connect the other marnatz sr6012 up and see if the dolby dsu is totally messed up as i replaced with that , denon demon lemon avc-x8500h less than 4 months so later .

its easier for me to rant this in a video , then each all of you can double check those rubbish avr avp for the technical sound format flaws ?

i do a video coming soon maybe , i do a live video steam that way . yes easier

 

[Sal1950]

as ex retired professional projectionist . know what to look for , listen for and feel for .

most avr avp today are , only fit for the headless panther and the cat litter box .

trinnov i wouldn't touch it with barge pole . denon marnatz , yamaha , onkyo ,these ' storm audio , the whole lot i wouldn't even put a trinnov32 into a dog cat recuse shelter .

dolby dsu is the most garbage trash i ever listened to in 34 years ! its flawed it has bugs . centre sound whooshy on denon avc-x8500h i guess if i connected or bothered to connect the other marnatz sr6012 up and see if the dolby dsu is totally messed up as i replaced with that , denon demon lemon avc-x8500h less than 4 months so later .

its easier for me to rant this in a video , then each all of you can double check those rubbish avr avp for the technical sound format flaws ?

i do a video coming soon maybe , i do a live video steam that way . yes easier

I feel pretty much 180 on everything you posted here.
Maybe it would just be better for you to sell it all and get a new hobby.
It doesn't appear as this one will bring you any joy.

 

[Gigicoltz]

Do us a favor please post when you decide on what you want you've got me curious on what you choose to purchase and I'd enjoy hearing your opinion on the gear after you set it up

In the end, I got a Denon x6700h, with which I stress myself to model a good sound both for stereo and for movies, in a environment 7.1.2 composed of Indiana line speakers. I have the MultEq app for Android, as well (20USD price or so).

 

[danzilla31]

In the end, I got a Denon x6700h, with which I stress myself to model a good sound both for stereo and for movies, in a environment 7.1.2 composed of Indiana line speakers. I have the MultEq app for Android, as well (20USD price or so).

It's always tricky to be able to set up a room to do both. I went through the same stress myself in my room. The Denon is a great reciever congrats!

 

[Gigicoltz]

It's always tricky to be able to set up a room to do both. I went through the same stress myself in my room. The Denon is a great reciever congrats!

Thanks! Happy to join the Denon club!