AVR for music suggestions

[schotky]

Wow, nice, people rarely would do as much as you did to avoid being influenced by any sort of bias including Placebo, thanks for that.
So if I understood right, you heard less difference when you did it blind, with help from a friend. I would just suggest that if you were able to do double blind and in fact level matched to within +/- 0.5 dB, you would have heard even less difference.

As Dr. Toole said more than once, if AB without DBT, it doesn't matter what you think you heard... and that's for loudspeakers, for electronics such as the ones you compared, Dr. Toole's findings/comments would certainly apply, likely more so/relevant. Happy listening.., thanks again for the post.

Thanks, I appreciate the acknowledgement . As I go I actually figured something out that I have missed, and all that micro volume aligns better now and makes it's clearer why.

As for the songs, I made two groups, one where I could obviously hear the difference without a blind test, and a second group, which were very few songs, that were tricky to say if there's any difference or not on my own.

 

[schotky]

Umm... that is not really true, when we talk about perceived loudness. (mathematically, of course: everything gets reduced by the same amount)
Are you familiar with the concept of loudness compensation in older amps or Fletcher Munson curve?

It states, that when we reduce the volume, Bass and Highs, perceptually, drop more and get harder to hear than the rest of the spectrum. That is because our ears are inherently less sensitive to these regions because they are not relevant to human speech (damn you Evolution!).

To combat this effect, loudness compensation attenuates these frequencies less than the mids as you lower the volume, giving you a perceptively more "stable" spectrum as you go down.

What works in the larger dB range, when we deliberately turn it down (or up) also works the very same in the small volume differences that we don't consciously perceive as "this is louder" just yet.

What, are you nuts? Here we go, trying to get accurate results and you liquor-up the audience! :'D

Jokes aside: I think it would be fun but you'd probably be pretty disappointed with me. I've never managed to hear differences between DACs even when testing sighted. Like... come on: my ADI-2 DAC is supposed to be leagues better than my AVR, no?
Sorry, ears said "There is no spoon". .__.

Amps I managed 2 times, both times I can tell you exactly why too: damping factor. That is one characteristic of an amp that is easily heard and usually manifests itself in over-the top bass. With my Clear it was a rather fun difference between the Titanium HD vs. the RME and I heard something similar (albeit waaaay more subtle) with a friends setup, some Pioneer AVR vs some Cambridge Audio amp.

Sorry, I was away for a while, I'm back now. Yeah I know what you mean for volume perceptively affecting low and high end, that is true. Damn evolution... Yeah I've heard of loudness compensation, to compensate for the evolution "mess up" xD.

If we're not a tad bit nuts though then what are we doing on this planet haha. Liquor-ing up heightens the senses, and I don't think you'll say no to my Manhattan once you try it

But, I might not be disappointed in you after all. I liked your and Svend P's persistence, it didn't align with what I was hearing for a reason. But I could tell of the way you were persistent and others, that there IS something missing in the equation here, not that you are wrong or something, and I would bet you for the audible difference I was hearing. Now I get it that the AVR and ADI-2 DAC are sounding probably exactly the same. Thanks for sharing the amp info too. Please read further

So, cause of all this feedback that I got here, I did deeper inspection and everything in my setup, cause things just didn't add up. Aaaaand, it turns out everyone that said the DACs should sound the same were correct. But also, I was correct as well in what I was hearing comparing the two, and how I described that.

Why? Well...... This pinched my nerve haha. The WiiM is plugged in the CD analog RCA input in the AVR, the RAW MDA-1 in the DVD analog RCA input, and I was switching between the two, sitting about 2.5m (7-8ft?) from the receiver. You could've shot me and I'd still tell you they didn't sound the same. Then, I came closer to the AVR so I can read everything that's on its display, not just the big letters.

I started rapidly switching between the 2 inputs from up close to look for any changes in the display. And god damn what a discovery... While everything else off, for some frickin' reason (probably the AVR thought it's a DVD and the audio will likely be compressed), it decided it's a good idea to candidly and automatically turn on Sound Retreiver ONLY on the DVD analog input where the RAW MDA-1 is connected. And the indicator that this is on, is probably 2x3mm big and in no way visible from a listening position 2.5m away. I turned that off and there it is... Try to tell the difference between the DACs now... I didn't even need a blind test to tell that they sound... yeah the same.

And the Sound Retreiver does exactly to the sound what I was hearing and describing so far. Punchy, different overall frequency response and with more attack. That's why I was so resistant and "nope they don't sound the same"... Well they really didn't with Sound Retreiver on on one input only... That off and there's no audible difference.

I had to break 2 chairs out of frustration for that undercover Sound Retreiver, it was fun... hahah I'm kidding that's expensive, I only broke one nice glass..... ok I'm joking again

So thanks again to all for all the help and the persistence, it paid off.

But that PEQ in the WiiM... man is it good, it also has the widest Q I have seen outside a computer, goes as wide as 0.10. I boosted a little around 25Hz and 18kHz with a wider Q to compensate for evolution issues xD, and the setup sounds even fuller and better than ever.

 

[EWL5]

Sorry, I was away for a while, I'm back now. Yeah I know what you mean for volume perceptively affecting low and high end, that is true. Damn evolution... Yeah I've heard of loudness compensation, to compensate for the evolution "mess up" xD.

If we're not a tad bit nuts though then what are we doing on this planet haha. Liquor-ing up heightens the senses, and I don't think you'll say no to my Manhattan once you try it

But, I might not be disappointed in you after all. I liked your and Svend P's persistence, it didn't align with what I was hearing for a reason. But I could tell of the way you were persistent and others, that there IS something missing in the equation here, not that you are wrong or something, and I would bet you for the audible difference I was hearing. Now I get it that the AVR and ADI-2 DAC are sounding probably exactly the same. Thanks for sharing the amp info too. Please read further

So, cause of all this feedback that I got here, I did deeper inspection and everything in my setup, cause things just didn't add up. Aaaaand, it turns out everyone that said the DACs should sound the same were correct. But also, I was correct as well in what I was hearing comparing the two, and how I described that.

Why? Well...... This pinched my nerve haha. The WiiM is plugged in the CD analog RCA input in the AVR, the RAW MDA-1 in the DVD analog RCA input, and I was switching between the two, sitting about 2.5m (7-8ft?) from the receiver. You could've shot me and I'd still tell you they didn't sound the same. Then, I came closer to the AVR so I can read everything that's on its display, not just the big letters.

I started rapidly switching between the 2 inputs from up close to look for any changes in the display. And god damn what a discovery... While everything else off, for some frickin' reason (probably the AVR thought it's a DVD and the audio will likely be compressed), it decided it's a good idea to candidly and automatically turn on Sound Retreiver ONLY on the DVD analog input where the RAW MDA-1 is connected. And the indicator that this is on, is probably 2x3mm big and in no way visible from a listening position 2.5m away. I turned that off and there it is... Try to tell the difference between the DACs now... I didn't even need a blind test to tell that they sound... yeah the same.

And the Sound Retreiver does exactly to the sound what I was hearing and describing so far. Punchy, different overall frequency response and with more attack. That's why I was so resistant and "nope they don't sound the same"... Well they really didn't with Sound Retreiver on on one input only... That off and there's no audible difference.

I had to break 2 chairs out of frustration for that undercover Sound Retreiver, it was fun... hahah I'm kidding that's expensive, I only broke one nice glass..... ok I'm joking again

So thanks again to all for all the help and the persistence, it paid off.

But that PEQ in the WiiM... man is it good, it also has the widest Q I have seen outside a computer, goes as wide as 0.10. I boosted a little around 25Hz and 18kHz with a wider Q to compensate for evolution issues xD, and the setup sounds even fuller and better than ever.

Now you know why most folks consider audio a Dark Art. It's pretty easy to lead folks to the promised land and upsell them to something better!

More money is better, right?

 

[schotky]

Now you know why most folks consider audio a Dark Art. It's pretty easy to lead folks to the promised land and upsell them to something better!

More money is better, right?

Pretty much. When I was auditioning speakers, every single piece of equipment was stupidly expensive, an amp $20k, $3k power cables, $500 RCA cables.. for the cables I had to do an eye roll that's too obvious, and everything in that ballpark. Most of it didn't sound better than what I have at home, powered by an AVR...

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

While everything else off, for some frickin' reason (probably the AVR thought it's a DVD and the audio will likely be compressed), it decided it's a good idea to candidly and automatically turn on Sound Retreiver ONLY on the DVD analog input where the RAW MDA-1 is connected.

DAMN! What a sneaky Bastard!
So it was "hidden" DSP processing after all.

Great that you found the cause of what you heard. And sorry about the chairs. :'D

$500 RCA cables.. for the cables I had to do an eye roll that's too obvious, and everything in that ballpark.

Cables are for newbies. I've heard that cable risers are all the rage now.

 

[schotky]

DAMN! What a sneaky Bastard!
So it was "hidden" DSP processing after all.

Great that you found the cause of what you heard. And sorry about the chairs. :'D

Cables are for newbies. I've heard that cable risers are all the rage now.

Man, if I had only seen the tiny indicator earlier... But I never expected that the AVR would do something "on its own". I used that input for the first time ever though so probably it was already on by default due to the input's type, and I didn't expect the setting to be individual by input.

As for the chairs... I have a strong tape and a medium weight ass xD.

Cable risers... Just read about those a few weeks ago.... .__. And they even wrote that customers already claim it sounds "significantly clearer and cleaner". Ok I'm on the way to get a bunch, at only 2200e per pop it's a steal before they run out of stock. I've always felt that my carpet might be affecting the sound so I can hear the difference in DACs.