AVR for music suggestions

[schotky]

I wholeheartedly second that. With a note that one should expect $200 AVRs to sound like they do and that at least I don't need yet another post saying how bad $200 AVR sounds like.

Just a note though, this "$200" AVR is what I paid for it second hand, I could've gotten it for free, I could've paid 3x that. So its cost doesn't seem to be THAT relevant here. Maybe it's better if more relevant "cost" or "value" is taken in consideration, for example when it was new, or maybe more importantly how it performs overall, cost put aside. That's how I think at least.

 

[schotky]

i think there might be a nicer way to say that.

Haha there is but it's fine, I'm here to find a solution to the problem I'm experiencing and I'm describing what I hear and fixes the issue, it may be something different that I might be missing out in meanwhile, and some have given some valid points and suggestions and I appreciate all that. I think we surely made some progress with the help of others, and still there will be different personal experiences and thoughts that may not necessarily align with everything and that's fine. At the end we still go for what works for us personally, it might not necessarily be technically or theoretically the best option out there but if it works well enough for our needs and wants, it works.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

No he wont. All amplifiers sound the same.

Pretty much, as long as they are competently designed AND being driven within their linear range.

The latter depends on the speaker load/sensitivity and the desired output volume.
Pretty easy to get Amps into clipping even in a domestic setting, especially your typical 100W per channel AVR.
Equally easy to hear the noise floor, when you try to blow up small signals (won't happen with your typical consumer line-out signal though).

 

[schotky]

i dont know if any have been tested here but i might recommend cambridge audio. my uncle was very knowledgeable re this whole scene and he didn't see the sense in buying crazy expensive equipment.

And he's right, there isn't much sense in buying crazy expensive equipment. I've heard of Cambridge audio, they aren't that cheap and mostly come in stereo only, at least in Au.

 

[schotky]

Pretty much, as long as they are competently designed AND being driven within it's linear range.

The latter depends on the speaker load and the desired output volume. Pretty easy to get Amps into clipping even in a domestic setting, especially your typical 100W per channel AVR.

Those variables are important and change the nomenclature of "all". Plus the noise floors of the chosen components and the design again, it's part of the sound.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Those variables are important and change the nomenclature of "all". Plus the noise floors of the chosen components and the design again, it's part of the sound.

Under normal circumstances, the noise floor should definitely NOT be "part of the sound". If I can hear the noise at normal listening levels, of normal program material, the amp is faulty or badly designed. o___O
Same with frequency response. If an amp colors the signal to an audible degree, I'd say it does not fall into the "competently designed" category. An amp has to sound like a wire. :<

However, especially on AVRs in multi-channel mode, one needs to take into account that you don't have a lot of watts per channel, as usually the power supply is the hard limit here. So driving 4 low ohm speakers with an AVR in a larger room? Definitely not recommended.

This is also where more expensive equipment comes in: power costs. You could go the Class D route and hook up amps to the pre-outs but then you are already in a higher price range on the AVR alone, because manufacturers product segment pretty hard and know pre-outs are popular among enthusiasts.

IMHO the most important factor when it comes to value conscious equipment is: Know what you actually need! There is no point in shelling out for a 1KW amp, when you only want to listen in a small apartment at moderate volume. It won't sound "better".

Know your speakers (impedance, potential phase angle issues) and how hard they are to drive, know your room (listening distance, preferred volume), then calculate the approximate power needed and buy accordingly. For most of us apartment dwellers, an AVR is perfectly sufficient on it's own, even if transient peaks may occasionally clip, since that is largely inaudible.

 

[Svend P]

@Nirvana
This was written with you in mind

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[schotky]

Under normal circumstances, the noise floor should definitely NOT be "part of the sound". If I can hear the noise at normal listening levels, of normal program material, the amp is faulty or badly designed. o___O
Same with frequency response. If an amp colors the signal to an audible degree, I'd say it does not fall into the "competently designed" category. An amp has to sound like a wire. :<

However, especially on AVRs in multi-channel mode, one needs to take into account that you don't have a lot of watts per channel, as usually the power supply is the hard limit here. So driving 4 low ohm speakers with an AVR in a larger room? Definitely not recommended.

This is also where more expensive equipment comes in: power costs. You could go the Class D route and hook up amps to the pre-outs but then you are already in a higher price range on the AVR alone, because manufacturers product segment pretty hard and know pre-outs are popular among enthusiasts.

IMHO the most important factor when it comes to value conscious equipment is: Know what you actually need! There is no point in shelling out for a 1KW amp, when you only want to listen in a small apartment at moderate volume. It won't sound "better".

Know your speakers (impedance, potential phase angle issues) and how hard they are to drive, know your room (listening distance, preferred volume), then calculate the approximate power needed and buy accordingly. For most of us apartment dwellers, an AVR is perfectly sufficient on it's own, even if transient peaks may occasionally clip, since that is largely inaudible.

Yeah you're right. Noise floor SHOULD not be part of the sound, but in some amps it is. You probably can't notice that when all instruments are playing, but for example, there are single instrument sections of a song, vocals only etc, or slow parts where noise can definitely be audible, and it shouldn't be, but it does become part of the sound that way cause it's audible.

Components picked do have influence. A reason why not all amps sound the same. Ideal amps and the ones that measure perfectly exactly the same should sound the same, that's not the case in reality though for "all" amps. Maybe that's the bit Svend P missed to point out. The ones in the AVRs are probably all sounding the same when isolated. And yeah their power doesn't translate to worse or better quality.

The impedance matching, room calculation, volume listening levels yeah knowing that will only help you get the optimum system.

 

[Svend P]

All? In theory maybe, in reality no. I used to build and repair amps, and know this for a fact.

Where would you see this in the measurements?

Double Blind tests *did* show amplifiers to sound different

In many online debates, position taken by some that when amplifiers are used that have flat frequency response and low distortion that no double blind tests have shown them to sound different. Well, I managed to dig up a 32 year old test that says otherwise. What is fascinating is that one of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Components picked do have influence.

Are you talking about circuit components or are you talking about system components, as in source components?

Yeah, circuit components can be audible but at least in home audio, I would label that as a [fruity language] amp that does not deserve any further consideration.
This is how I feel about an amps frequency response with a "manufacturer house curve":

PA systems or instrument amps are another matter. Especially in the latter, (e.g.: a guitar amp) a signature is often desired because it is relevant to the artistic expression. PA systems' quality can suffer due to compromises needing to be made to get the power and fill a venue.

As for source components: same, really. A source component should not have a signature of it's own. At least in the digital domain.
If it does, again: [fruity language] design, dump it ASAP.
I could see an analog source e.g.: a turntable having a signature, though I am not familiar enough with such equipment to make any judgments here.

Summary under normal circumstances for home audio reproduction:

• Source: neutral (unless DSP is engaged at the listener's request)
• Amp: always neutral. It only has one job: make the source signal louder. Anything else is an unwanted degradation of the signal.
• Speaker: does come with a signature, perfect transducers do not exist, so pick your poison. :'D

Exception: If an amp cannot deal with e.g.: a really quirky speaker with horrible phase angles and low sensitivity: that would be user error, not the right amp for the job.

 

[EWL5]

No he wont. All amplifiers sound the same.

I would agree with you 99% of the time but as this website has shown, sometimes manufacturers can't get out of their own way and will limit an amps potential via undocumented protection.

Running my Martin Logans (or any electrostatic speakers) on my 3800 would be a different experience compared to the 7100 or RZ50 under its "limp mode"!

 

[schotky]

Where would you see this in the measurements?

Double Blind tests *did* show amplifiers to sound different

In many online debates, position taken by some that when amplifiers are used that have flat frequency response and low distortion that no double blind tests have shown them to sound different. Well, I managed to dig up a 32 year old test that says otherwise. What is fascinating is that one of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Not all amps are designed and built the same, and measurement will usually show a variation in the graph. Same measurements will likely sound the same, but in reality not "all" amps are designed and built the same. That's where the difference comes in. I guess you missed or forgot to point that out. Simplest example is amps with less and cheaper components will not sound and measure the same compared to amps built with more components and of better quality and have more stability when under load.

As I mentioned, I have both AB and class D bass guitar amps, both even same brand. When I use same preamp on each on same speaker, they also don't sound exactly the same, very similar but not the same. They probably don't even measure the same. The class D sounds a bit more "sterile", probably cause of the constant "on-off" cycle and has somewhat different overall tonality. Again, the differences are small, but there if you pay attention.

 

[schotky]

Circuit components. Yeah "signature" series aside, those are intentionally design to sound different. I was referring just to the amplifier on its own, excluding the intentional sound altering to create a signature. Something like I've explained in the previous post.

Well that's the thing, components and designs are not intended to or supposed to influence the sound, but some do. And that's the reality of the amps, that's what I'm talking about, differences are usually small, but noticeable. Same or different, but of all high quality designs and components, will very likely measure and sound the same. Compromise or not it does influence the sound, that's a real life scenario.

 

[Digital_Thor]

Everything you can hear can be measured.

"Things that cannot be measured"

Something the subjectivist crowd often brings up. "There are things we cannot measure but the human ear/brain can hear it." We retort, an analyzer can hear much better than any human can. Which is the truth. But thinking about the question I did being to wonder... Could it be possible for there...

www.audiosciencereview.com

If the measurement equipment and overall condition are optimal
Some people measure distortion in quite many different ways, easily ending up comparing apple and oranges.

 

[Svend P]

Not all amps are designed and built the same, and measurement will usually show a variation in the graph. Same measurements will likely sound the same, but in reality not "all" amps are designed and built the same. That's where the difference comes in. I guess you missed or forgot to point that out. Simplest example is amps with less and cheaper components will not sound and measure the same compared to amps built with more components and of better quality and have more stability when under load.

As I mentioned, I have both AB and class D bass guitar amps, both even same brand. When I use same preamp on each on same speaker, they also don't sound exactly the same, very similar but not the same. They probably don't even measure the same. The class D sounds a bit more "sterile", probably cause of the constant "on-off" cycle and has somewhat different overall tonality. Again, the differences are small, but there if you pay attention.

You need to test blind for your conclusions to have any value. I have never heard of anyone being able to tell how many components were used inside of an amplifier. This sounds like audiophoolery to me.

Even though you certainly can measure differences between amps, it doesn't mean you can hear them once you get past audible thresholds.

 

[Nirvana]

Not all amps are designed and built the same, and measurement will usually show a variation in the graph. Same measurements will likely sound the same, but in reality not "all" amps are designed and built the same. That's where the difference comes in. I guess you missed or forgot to point that out. Simplest example is amps with less and cheaper components will not sound and measure the same compared to amps built with more components and of better quality and have more stability when under load.

As I mentioned, I have both AB and class D bass guitar amps, both even same brand. When I use same preamp on each on same speaker, they also don't sound exactly the same, very similar but not the same. They probably don't even measure the same. The class D sounds a bit more "sterile", probably cause of the constant "on-off" cycle and has somewhat different overall tonality. Again, the differences are small, but there if you pay attention.

He doesn't even waste his time answering his experiences here.
No one will believe you. They don't even believe in themselves.

 

[khaliss]

Just sharing my setup here, since the topic is about using AVRs for music... I started setting up a mini-listening room using a simple 2.1 setup with a Yamaha A-S701 integrated stereo receiver, & that sounded great (this was back in February). Then decided I want something that I can also watch shows/movies on content that my wife doesn't have any interest to watch at our main 7.2 setup in the living room. So I went ahead and converted from 2.1 to a 7.2 system using an old Marantz SR-5006, that sounded great too but it was lacking OOMPH & not particularly great on dynamics. Then the upgrade bug caught me almost every week... now, I'm on the 4th version of the setup using an older Yamaha Aventage RX-A2070 (very musical), and oh this thing just rocks! It is an ATMOS-enabled AVR & got it configured in 4.2.4 surround (no Center speaker, I actually enjoy listening to music in surround mode rather than just plain stereo... very immersive). I'm really convinced that if you want a "musical" AVR setup, get a higher-end unit (even if it's a used/older model) & definitely get rid of your center channel speaker & just be in phantom-center mode!

The idea here is a bang-for-the-buck system that can do it all, half of the components/speakers here are used stuff I snagged on FB marketplace:

NOTE: The E70 DAC you see here is mainly used for "critical/pure" stereo listening, actually use it rarely now... I just enjoy Dolby (or Neural:X) Surround more =)

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

definitely get rid of your center channel speaker & just be in phantom-center mode!

Complicated setup but I second the "rarely use the 2CH DAC for critical music listening". I rarely do that with my RME as well, since the AVR sounds the same. RME is mostly on headphone duty. :'D

If you are the only person that uses the system and you always sit in the sweet spot: yeah no need for a center. The moment you want to watch a movie with a few buddies on the couch though? A good center is definitely a boon.

 

[khaliss]

Complicated setup but I second the "rarely use the 2CH DAC for critical music listening". I rarely do that with my RME as well, since the AVR sounds the same. RME is mostly on headphone duty. :'D

If you are the only person that uses the system and you always sit in the sweet spot: yeah no need for a center. The moment you want to watch a movie with a few buddies on the couch though? A good center is definitely a boon.

Ahh yes, that's what I forgot to mention... I'm the only audience for my setup. I have a nice LazBoy recliner about 8 feet from the two front speakers, center of the room, so yes it is definitely just one sweet-spot (& thus why it's working better for me to have no center speaker at all)

Part of the fun is tinkering & experimenting, that's why my setup is definitely unconventional (& complicated)... but hey, I love it! LOL

 

[Fahzz]

Ahh yes, that's what I forgot to mention... I'm the only audience for my setup. I have a nice LazBoy recliner about 8 feet from the two front speakers, center of the room, so yes it is definitely just one sweet-spot (& thus why it's working better for me to have no center speaker at all)

Part of the fun is tinkering & experimenting, that's why my setup is definitely unconventional (& complicated)... but hey, I love it! LOL

You should add the La-Z-Boy to your diagram for completeness.