AVR for music suggestions

[khaliss]

You should add the La-Z-Boy to your diagram for completeness.

perhaps I should!

 

[Music707]

Just sharing my setup here, since the topic is about using AVRs for music...

Thank you for taking the time to present your system in a nice fashion.

 

[Svend P]

While we wait for the OP to post measurements, here is a link to a lot of blind tests for those of you who still think amplifiers and DACs sound different. The clear conclusion is that they don't, and that is not the explanation for the differences that OP hears.

Testing audiophile claims and myths

(As I find more blind tests I will add them to the list here.) So, we love to have a good discussion/argument/rant here (and on all the other audio forums I have seen) about the many claims audiophiles make that others dismiss as myths. The arguments go round in circles; I hear a difference -...

www.head-fi.org

 

[schotky]

Just sharing my setup here, since the topic is about using AVRs for music... I started setting up a mini-listening room using a simple 2.1 setup with a Yamaha A-S701 integrated stereo receiver, & that sounded great (this was back in February). Then decided I want something that I can also watch shows/movies on content that my wife doesn't have any interest to watch at our main 7.2 setup in the living room. So I went ahead and converted from 2.1 to a 7.2 system using an old Marantz SR-5006, that sounded great too but it was lacking OOMPH & not particularly great on dynamics. Then the upgrade bug caught me almost every week... now, I'm on the 4th version of the setup using an older Yamaha Aventage RX-A2070 (very musical), and oh this thing just rocks! It is an ATMOS-enabled AVR & got it configured in 4.2.4 surround (no Center speaker, I actually enjoy listening to music in surround mode rather than just plain stereo... very immersive). I'm really convinced that if you want a "musical" AVR setup, get a higher-end unit (even if it's a used/older model) & definitely get rid of your center channel speaker & just be in phantom-center mode!

The idea here is a bang-for-the-buck system that can do it all, half of the components/speakers here are used stuff I snagged on FB marketplace:
View attachment 453967
NOTE: The E70 DAC you see here is mainly used for "critical/pure" stereo listening, actually use it rarely now... I just enjoy Dolby (or Neural:X) Surround more =)

What a setup there.. nice, thanks for the share. How would you describe the Monitor Audio Silver RS-6? I had the chance to buy them 2-3 years ago second hand but passed on them, I don't remember the reason now

 

[schotky]

Ok so in meanwhile, for the weekend I decided to take a few steps and did the following for testing purposes, so I got a few items:

- This one wasn't planned, but it popped up on marketplace, Pioneer VSX 933, I only got it cause Pioneer has listed its dac chip - AK4458 which has good reputation, and it's a much newer unit compared to the 1021 having newer HDMI, so I thought let's hear the difference, if any

- WiiM Ultra

- SMSL SU-1 (I didn't get to test this yet)

- Still have the Marantz SR5008



I'll try to keep this as short as possible but it is a bit long, sorry for that and for possible typos. Please keep in mind this is what I am hearing, I didn't do any measurements yet.

All the time any settings were set to flat, off or default (unless otherwise noted), whichever option was available the closest to eliminating anything extra in the sound. Tidal streaming for all tests.

Since the Marantz was already hooked up, I tried the WiiM Ultra on it first via analog line out. For some reason sounded too midrange forward and was lacking quite a bit of that oomph, clean sound but I didn't like the overall tonality, something was lacking pretty shallow for my taste. Tried different options and settings, could not get the sound where I wanted it, has no standing wave correction, options (sound wise) are too limited and not as intuitive and convenient as the Pioneer, so I have zero reasons to keep this AVR, it's probably going back on marketplace.

So I swapped in the Pioneer VSX 933. I got this just to compare the HDMI input to the 1021, I'm not gonna keep it as it doesn't have standing wave correction, and it has a bit less power than the 1021. Through HDMI sounded like the Pioneer 1021 just without harsh treble, similar overall presentation without harshness. Probably the "better" DAC, probably the newer HDMI wasn't in the way, I don't know yet, but treble harshness wasn't there.

Now I hook up the Pioneer 1021. HDMI input on it, yup treble harshness is there again. Then, I connect the WiiM Ultra, switch the HDMI cable to the WiiM, connect to Pioneer via COAX (not line out) to test its DAC, but skipping Pioneer's HDMI section this way. No treble harshness, sounds more natural and definitely cleaner... What a reveal, the HDMI 1.4 was on the way all this time. It seriously degraded the sound.

...

From here on, some of you might wanna throw me in the river xD haha, but anyway I'm just writing what I hear, and this is probably the last 5-10% maybe less of the sound definition/signature whatever you wanna call it... So, now I switch to RCA line out from the WiiM to Pioneer analog input, sounds different. Fuller midrange and more texture in the sound, overall also less "bloated". Polished and easily listenable/musical sound, whatever that may mean to some, I don't know how else to describe that. No settings engaged or changed in meanwhile.

Then I decided to run the WiiM COAX out to COAX in on the RAW MDA-1, basically to use an external DAC for the WiiM, and then analog out to the Pioneer. Sounds different again, both sound fabulous, just not the same. A punchier sound with more attack throughout the whole frequency range, better instrument definition, but with a bit less texture than the WiiM's analog out. I was A/B-ing for a few hours this way with about 3-4 seconds between AB swaps which was the quickest to change, also with breaks so I don't loose myself there and confuse everything, with different songs and genres. Depending on the song and the recording/mastering, I noticed the difference was pronounced more or less, and in handful of instances of what I listened, the difference was so little it was negligible. I randomized the order of the songs, so I would after each break start a song group, but with a different 1st song, just to eliminate fatiguing as much as possible so it wouldn't be on the way of listening. Yup, the differences didn't change in the songs.

Then, I also didn't want to be biased or placebo'd for myself first, so the next day I invited a friend to help me with blind testing . Setup was HDMI input to the WiiM Ultra at all times, Tidal stream, and then change between WiiM's analog out to the Pioneer, or WiiM's COAX out to RAW MDA-1 COAX input and then analog out to Pioneer. So basically it was WiiM's DAC or RAW MDA-1 DAC change only.

Me in my listening spot, he had the controls out of my sight and seating away from me, and would change or not change whenever he chose to. He would play A then B, or A then A and then A again etc or whatever he wanted to do, I told him that this needs to be mixed and random.

We grouped the songs that I thought had more difference, and played those only first. I could tell which system was which every single time with these songs, for most it was instant, for some I needed a few back and forths, but I guessed correctly each time.

Then the few songs that didn't sound too different to me when I was comparing on my own. With these I would either struggle to guess and guessed only couple of times, or would just say I don't know. So yeah, it looks like some songs can sound different on different DACs, some do not or it's so little at least I can't tell.

And it's interesting to note that both the WiiM Ultra and the RAW MDA-1 have pretty similar DAC chips, but they DO sound different TO ME in majority of songs, of what I usually listen to. Now, it's also important to mention, implementation of the DAC chips is probably different between systems, and it may be that factor that is making the difference instead of the chip itself, I don't know that, but DACs as whole units, the ones I've tested so far, TO ME, they sound different in most songs, and in some songs the difference TO ME is instantly obvious. I have to emphasize the "ME" here.. Haha.

BTW, both the WiiM and the RAW MDA-1 sound like an improvement over the Pioneer's DAC circuitry, however could live with any of the 3 with eliminated bottlenecks, but would surely prefer the WiiM or the RAW MDA-1. Just not with the Pioneer's 1.4 HDMI xD...

I'm yet to try the SMSL SU-1 in the following days.

Having all that said, I'm happy to try and measure all this, I'm curious for the measurements now, but I may need some help and input or a research on how to properly set this up and do it.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I was A/B-ing for a few hours this way with about 3-4 seconds between AB

And all of that w/o taking a voltmeter to the speaker terminals and making sure the volume is within 0.1dB?

You wasted a lot of time here. Those DACs most likely have different output levels, leading to volume differences.

As for how to measure: you need a kick-ass, audibly transparent ADC first. That might cost you more than a new AVR.

 

[Svend P]

And all of that w/o taking a voltmeter to the speaker terminals and making sure the volume is within 0.1dB?

Yeah. File this under "cool story, bro"

 

[schotky]

And all of that w/o taking a voltmeter to the speaker terminals and making sure the volume is within 0.1dB?

You wasted a lot of time here. Those DACs most likely have different output levels, leading to volume differences.

As for how to measure: you need a kick-ass, audibly transparent ADC first. That might cost you more than a new AVR.

There it is, that's why I didn't mention volume, I was just waiting to see who was going to mention first "but did you adjust the volume to 0.1dB". I adjusted the volume the same by ear. I tried with different volumes overall. But the difference that I hear isn't really related to 0.1dB of overall volume difference. Raising or lowering the volume I would guess wouldn't only increase or decrease a specific frequency, or bring more or less texture only in the sound. The problem is you can't describe a sound that well with words. You only describe what words you find the closest to what you hear, and then it's open for interpretation.

For me, I heard and got what I needed to, and it was well spent time for what I was looking for. I got my answer.

But funny that you mention "a kick-ass audibly transparent" ADC. Aren't they also supposed to sound all the same just as DACs are supposed to? It's just the other way around, or does that not apply to ADCs?

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I adjusted the volume the same by ear.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh but in scientific terms: your entire experiment is disqualified due to that.
The human ear simply isn't precise enough for volume matching. There have been works done on the effects of subtle consciously INAUDIBLE volume differences by the pro's, if you do not believe them and think you know better, that is your issue, not mine.

There is a reason why precise volume matching is the #1 requirement for any A/B comparison.

But funny that you mention "a kick-ass audibly transparent" ADC. Aren't they also supposed to sound all the same just as DACs are supposed to? It's just the other way around, or does that not apply to ADCs?

Except: we are not talking about audible stuff here. We are talking about MEASUREMENTS. If your amp can deliver -110dB distortion free range, measuring with a budget ADC that can resolve, say -80dB would be nonsensical, as it would be impossible to see what the amp does at -110dB.

If you have a really good amp, whose distortion products are below -120dB, your measuring ADC needs to be -140dB or better -> expensive! There is a reason why Amir-senpai uses an uber expensive Audio Precision analyzer.

As for audible stuff: -80dB is actually perfectly fine for listening to real program material. Most speakers have their THD at -60dB or even higher. You need some pretty freaky circumstances to be able to hear THD at -80dB.

 

[Svend P]

For measuring frequency response, I think almost any ADC will do. This is not a question about minute differences in SINAD.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

For measuring frequency response, I think almost any ADC will do. This is not a question about minute differences in SINAD.

Provided we can be sure the ADC has a flat response in the first place, aye.

Though if it doesn't, a direct comparison of the two signals would still reveal differences, even if the absolute values would be nonsense.

 

[schotky]

I am sorry if this sounds harsh but in scientific terms: your entire experiment is disqualified due to that.
The human ear simply isn't precise enough for volume matching. There have been works done on the effects of subtle consciously INAUDIBLE volume differences by the pro's, if you do not believe them and think you know better, that is your issue, not mine.

There is a reason why precise volume matching is the #1 requirement for any A/B comparison.

Except: we are not talking about audible stuff here. We are talking about MEASUREMENTS. If your amp can deliver -110dB distortion free range, measuring with a budget ADC that can resolve, say -80dB would be nonsensical, as it would be impossible to see what the amp does at -110dB.

If you have a really good amp, whose distortion products are below -120dB, your measuring ADC needs to be -140dB or better -> expensive! There is a reason why Amir-senpai uses an uber expensive Audio Precision analyzer.

As for audible stuff: -80dB is actually perfectly fine for listening to real program material. Most speakers have their THD at -60dB or even higher. You need some pretty freaky circumstances to be able to hear THD at -80dB.

Well, you said AUDIBLY transparent ADC, so I thought we were talking about what we can hear, now you say it's not that but measurements...

BTW, I'm not doing this for professional purposes, so "discarded" or not it doesn't matter. I'm doing this for me and I heard what I needed to hear for me pretty distinctively without that, and that setup and test showed a difference to me. That's what matters to me, I know in which direction I'd like to head now and found the culprit in the Pioneer 1021.

Also cause I'm not doing this for professional reasons, I have no need or desire to invest in such an expensive measurement system. I got what I needed to get with what I did.

By this "it must be 0.1dB volume matched or it's discarded", it sounds more like you got a green and red apple to try taste the difference, but your taste experience won't be valid and discarded if they are not exactly the same size...

Anyway, I really do appreciate your direct technical feedback and point of view, I'm not saying those are not valid points, I just don't think all things in real life work 100% that way, and some people can be more perceptive to some things than others, in my experience at least.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Well, you said AUDIBLY transparent ADC, so I thought we were talking about what we can hear, now you say it's not that but measurements...

Yeah sorry, It was a poor/imprecise choice of words.

By this "it must be 0.1dB volume matched or it's discarded", it sounds more like you got a green and red apple to try taste the difference, but your taste experience won't be valid and discarded if they are not exactly the same size...

No, you simply refuse to accept how human hearing works.
No matter how much you try to wind out of it, there is a gap between volume differences we can consciously perceive and volume differences that unconsciously alter how we hear the signal w/o realizing that one is louder than the other.

It's a simple biological fact that has been exploited by Stereo salesmen for ages. E.g.: make the more expensive system 0.5dB louder and it sounds "more lively, more open, punchier" etc. pp. w/o sounding actually louder to the oblivious customer.

and some people can be more perceptive to some things than others

Definitely, which is why, when we want to do system diagnoses we must eliminate as many factors as we can to get to the technical cause of: "why does it sound different to me?"
Volume difference is one of the most obvious source of perceived signal differences and fairly easy to kill, so it's a logical starting point.

 

[schotky]

Yeah sorry, It was a poor/imprecise choice of words.

No, you simply refuse to accept how human hearing works.
No matter how much you try to wind out of it, there is a gap between volume differences we can consciously perceive and volume differences that unconsciously alter how we hear the signal w/o realizing that one is louder than the other.

It's a simple biological fact that has been exploited by Stereo salesmen for ages. E.g.: make the more expensive system 0.5dB louder and it sounds "more lively, more open, punchier" etc. pp. w/o sounding actually louder to the oblivious customer.

Definitely, which is why, when we want to do system diagnoses we must eliminate as many factors as we can to get to the technical cause of: "why does it sound different to me?"
Volume difference is one of the most obvious source of perceived signal differences and fairly easy to kill, so it's a logical starting point.

And I agree with all that you're saying here, for sure. But I think I'm hearing different" levels" in different frequencies, not everything altogether at once. Volume does that to everything at once.

But you know what, if you and @Svend P were both in the same country and city as me, I'd be more than welcome you both to my place over a whiskey or a beer, and then listen to some good music, and I'd be more than happy to show you what I mean and how that translates in my setup, and also be surely open to whatever I may be missing in the process other than the volume (or if you have to tool to measure that do bring it). You don't need to worry about being rude or offensive, I don't get there very easily over such things

 

[EWL5]

Volume difference is one of the most obvious source of perceived signal differences and fairly easy to kill, so it's a logical starting point.

One only needs to point to the old codec wars and Dialnorm to understand how harmful uneven volume comparisons can be!

 

[Svend P]

I only got it cause Pioneer has listed its dac chip - AK4458 which has good reputation

I was hoping we could enlighten you a bit, but your resistance certainly is strong ;-)

The DAC chip doesn't matter. After a certain point, nothing in electronics matters. It will all sound equally transparent

Recommendation of a AK4499EX-Based DAC?

I am considering getting a DAC that uses the AK4191EQ/AK4499EX chip set. There are several DACs using this AKM chip combo that are nearly in the same price range: Topping E70V, SMSL M400, SMSL DO400EX, SMSL SU-9 Ultra. Any recommendation on which one to get?

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[peng]

Ok so in meanwhile, for the weekend I decided to take a few steps and did the following for testing purposes, so I got a few items:

- This one wasn't planned, but it popped up on marketplace, Pioneer VSX 933, I only got it cause Pioneer has listed its dac chip - AK4458 which has good reputation, and it's a much newer unit compared to the 1021 having newer HDMI, so I thought let's hear the difference, if any

- WiiM Ultra

- SMSL SU-1 (I didn't get to test this yet)

- Still have the Marantz SR5008



I'll try to keep this as short as possible but it is a bit long, sorry for that and for possible typos. Please keep in mind this is what I am hearing, I didn't do any measurements yet.

All the time any settings were set to flat, off or default (unless otherwise noted), whichever option was available the closest to eliminating anything extra in the sound. Tidal streaming for all tests.

Since the Marantz was already hooked up, I tried the WiiM Ultra on it first via analog line out. For some reason sounded too midrange forward and was lacking quite a bit of that oomph, clean sound but I didn't like the overall tonality, something was lacking pretty shallow for my taste. Tried different options and settings, could not get the sound where I wanted it, has no standing wave correction, options (sound wise) are too limited and not as intuitive and convenient as the Pioneer, so I have zero reasons to keep this AVR, it's probably going back on marketplace.

So I swapped in the Pioneer VSX 933. I got this just to compare the HDMI input to the 1021, I'm not gonna keep it as it doesn't have standing wave correction, and it has a bit less power than the 1021. Through HDMI sounded like the Pioneer 1021 just without harsh treble, similar overall presentation without harshness. Probably the "better" DAC, probably the newer HDMI wasn't in the way, I don't know yet, but treble harshness wasn't there.

Now I hook up the Pioneer 1021. HDMI input on it, yup treble harshness is there again. Then, I connect the WiiM Ultra, switch the HDMI cable to the WiiM, connect to Pioneer via COAX (not line out) to test its DAC, but skipping Pioneer's HDMI section this way. No treble harshness, sounds more natural and definitely cleaner... What a reveal, the HDMI 1.4 was on the way all this time. It seriously degraded the sound.

...

From here on, some of you might wanna throw me in the river xD haha, but anyway I'm just writing what I hear, and this is probably the last 5-10% maybe less of the sound definition/signature whatever you wanna call it... So, now I switch to RCA line out from the WiiM to Pioneer analog input, sounds different. Fuller midrange and more texture in the sound, overall also less "bloated". Polished and easily listenable/musical sound, whatever that may mean to some, I don't know how else to describe that. No settings engaged or changed in meanwhile.

Then I decided to run the WiiM COAX out to COAX in on the RAW MDA-1, basically to use an external DAC for the WiiM, and then analog out to the Pioneer. Sounds different again, both sound fabulous, just not the same. A punchier sound with more attack throughout the whole frequency range, better instrument definition, but with a bit less texture than the WiiM's analog out. I was A/B-ing for a few hours this way with about 3-4 seconds between AB swaps which was the quickest to change, also with breaks so I don't loose myself there and confuse everything, with different songs and genres. Depending on the song and the recording/mastering, I noticed the difference was pronounced more or less, and in handful of instances of what I listened, the difference was so little it was negligible. I randomized the order of the songs, so I would after each break start a song group, but with a different 1st song, just to eliminate fatiguing as much as possible so it wouldn't be on the way of listening. Yup, the differences didn't change in the songs.

Then, I also didn't want to be biased or placebo'd for myself first, so the next day I invited a friend to help me with blind testing . Setup was HDMI input to the WiiM Ultra at all times, Tidal stream, and then change between WiiM's analog out to the Pioneer, or WiiM's COAX out to RAW MDA-1 COAX input and then analog out to Pioneer. So basically it was WiiM's DAC or RAW MDA-1 DAC change only.

Me in my listening spot, he had the controls out of my sight and seating away from me, and would change or not change whenever he chose to. He would play A then B, or A then A and then A again etc or whatever he wanted to do, I told him that this needs to be mixed and random.

We grouped the songs that I thought had more difference, and played those only first. I could tell which system was which every single time with these songs, for most it was instant, for some I needed a few back and forths, but I guessed correctly each time.

Then the few songs that didn't sound too different to me when I was comparing on my own. With these I would either struggle to guess and guessed only couple of times, or would just say I don't know. So yeah, it looks like some songs can sound different on different DACs, some do not or it's so little at least I can't tell.

And it's interesting to note that both the WiiM Ultra and the RAW MDA-1 have pretty similar DAC chips, but they DO sound different TO ME in majority of songs, of what I usually listen to. Now, it's also important to mention, implementation of the DAC chips is probably different between systems, and it may be that factor that is making the difference instead of the chip itself, I don't know that, but DACs as whole units, the ones I've tested so far, TO ME, they sound different in most songs, and in some songs the difference TO ME is instantly obvious. I have to emphasize the "ME" here.. Haha.

BTW, both the WiiM and the RAW MDA-1 sound like an improvement over the Pioneer's DAC circuitry, however could live with any of the 3 with eliminated bottlenecks, but would surely prefer the WiiM or the RAW MDA-1. Just not with the Pioneer's 1.4 HDMI xD...

I'm yet to try the SMSL SU-1 in the following days.

Having all that said, I'm happy to try and measure all this, I'm curious for the measurements now, but I may need some help and input or a research on how to properly set this up and do it.

Wow, nice, people rarely would do as much as you did to avoid being influenced by any sort of bias including Placebo, thanks for that.
So if I understood right, you heard less difference when you did it blind, with help from a friend. I would just suggest that if you were able to do double blind and in fact level matched to within +/- 0.5 dB, you would have heard even less difference.

As Dr. Toole said more than once, if AB without DBT, it doesn't matter what you think you heard... and that's for loudspeakers, for electronics such as the ones you compared, Dr. Toole's findings/comments would certainly apply, likely more so/relevant. Happy listening.., thanks again for the post.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

But I think I'm hearing different" levels" in different frequencies, not everything altogether at once. Volume does that to everything at once.

Umm... that is not really true, when we talk about perceived loudness. (mathematically, of course: everything gets reduced by the same amount)
Are you familiar with the concept of loudness compensation in older amps or Fletcher Munson curve?

It states, that when we reduce the volume, Bass and Highs, perceptually, drop more and get harder to hear than the rest of the spectrum. That is because our ears are inherently less sensitive to these regions because they are not relevant to human speech (damn you Evolution!).

To combat this effect, loudness compensation attenuates these frequencies less than the mids as you lower the volume, giving you a perceptively more "stable" spectrum as you go down.

What works in the larger dB range, when we deliberately turn it down (or up) also works the very same in the small volume differences that we don't consciously perceive as "this is louder" just yet.

I'd be more than welcome you both to my place over a whiskey or a beer, and then listen to some good music

What, are you nuts? Here we go, trying to get accurate results and you liquor-up the audience! :'D

Jokes aside: I think it would be fun but you'd probably be pretty disappointed with me. I've never managed to hear differences between DACs even when testing sighted. Like... come on: my ADI-2 DAC is supposed to be leagues better than my AVR, no?
Sorry, ears said "There is no spoon". .__.

Amps I managed 2 times, both times I can tell you exactly why too: damping factor. That is one characteristic of an amp that is easily heard and usually manifests itself in over-the top bass. With my Clear it was a rather fun difference between the Titanium HD vs. the RME and I heard something similar (albeit waaaay more subtle) with a friends setup, some Pioneer AVR vs some Cambridge Audio amp.

 

[khaliss]

What a setup there.. nice, thanks for the share. How would you describe the Monitor Audio Silver RS-6? I had the chance to buy them 2-3 years ago second hand but passed on them, I don't remember the reason now

I think they are great value for the money speakers (if you snag a used pair at a pretty low price, I paid like $250, excellent condition)... they are very neutral sounding speakers to me, bass is decent too... but I think they are more for a small/mid sized room... so if you put them in a spacious living room... maybe go for the larger version like the RS8 or something else.

 

[schotky]

I was hoping we could enlighten you a bit, but your resistance certainly is strong ;-)

The DAC chip doesn't matter. After a certain point, nothing in electronics matters. It will all sound equally transparent

Recommendation of a AK4499EX-Based DAC?

I am considering getting a DAC that uses the AK4191EQ/AK4499EX chip set. There are several DACs using this AKM chip combo that are nearly in the same price range: Topping E70V, SMSL M400, SMSL DO400EX, SMSL SU-9 Ultra. Any recommendation on which one to get?

www.audiosciencereview.com

Sorry I was MIA for a few days, had to take care of some stuff.

Oh yeah you all did contribute to enlightenment, and your persistence pushed me to inspect everything further more. Please read below what actually happened and why my resistance was strong