AVR for music suggestions

[schotky]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum, I see here are some knowledgeable members and @amirm doing some great reviews and tests on AVRs which I find plenty helpful and informative. Thanks for doing all those tests, they do require a lot of time and work.

I was looking to upgrade my AVR with music being the main aim. I'm not really concerned L how it will sound for movies, but very much so for music.

Some intro, I currently have an old Pioneer VSX 1021. The DAC in it is just pretty bad. Treble is harsh, sound stage flat, lacking details etc. I used external DAC (SMSL RAW MDA1) through the analog inputs on the AVR skipping the digital section altogether, and it started sounding like a totally different amp. With a good source I'd say it's a night and day difference to me, way better. So the analog amplifier in the AVR is ok, but the DAC is just bad.

The thing is external DAC limits me to just 2 speakers and has no HDMI, these are pretty much all just stereo. I use 2 main speakers, 2 surround plus 1 sub. Yes I use 4 speakers for music plus a sub, the 2 surrounding add this extra spaciousness which I really appreciate.

Out of so much testing, I'd assume one or two AVRs might stand out with at least reasonable DACs that can be recommended that can utilize surround speakers.

So my question is, what AVR that doesn't cost an arm and a leg would make most sense for music which would be an upgrade to what I have. I'd like it to have the following:

- a good DAC that doesn't suck, this is pretty much a requirement

- setup will be HDMI input to speaker output (4k would be nice but not mandatory as the AVR is the last link in my chain, I'm not using it as a pass through, just the HDMI ARC

- 5.1 channel or more, BI-AMP option preffered but also not mandatory

- at least 90W at 8 ohm per channel with 2 speakers engaged

- independent subwoofer control is also nice but still not mandatory

- I always appreciate full parametric EQ but I know they are a rarity in AVRs

Any recommendations would be welcome, thanks!

 

[Chrispy]

Having had a Pioneer of that general generation I think your opinion of the dac and audio is somewhat ridiculous. Some of your proposed solutions are pretty silly.

 

[schotky]

Having had a Pioneer of that general generation I think your opinion of the dac and audio is somewhat ridiculous. Some of your proposed solutions are pretty silly.

What specifically is ridiculous regarding DACs and audio in that?

And what is silly in the proposed solution other than that I use 4 speakers for music, I am aware it's not an everyday thing, but I like how it sounds

 

[Chrispy]

What specifically is ridiculous regarding DACs and audio in that?

And what is silly in the proposed solution other than that I use 4 speakers for music, I am aware it's not an everyday thing, but I like how it sounds

Your ability to micro analyze a dac response would be amazing, I simply doubt it happened. Have no idea what you mean by using four speakers instead of two if your content is 2.0; if 4.0 then maybe the four speakers with appropriate hardware and sources might be important. What you prefer is hard to know in any case.

 

[DVDdoug]

The DAC in it is just pretty bad. Treble is harsh, sound stage flat, lacking details etc.

Those aren't characteristics of a DAC. If there's a defect with a DAC it's usually noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background) but that's also the most likely defect/difference with most electronics unless you overdrive an amp (or something) into clipping/distortion.

There could be some EQ or tone control settings, but more likely it's just loudness differences which can be perceived as lots of different things. Or, it's just an imaginary placebo effect.

 

[schotky]

Your ability to micro analyze a dac response would be amazing, I simply doubt it happened. Have no idea what you mean by using four speakers instead of two if your content is 2.0; if 4.0 then maybe the four speakers with appropriate hardware and sources might be important. What you prefer is hard to know in any case.

Well I don't know how else to explain it, I hooked up an external DAC to the AVR's analog input and sound quality is just higher with same source, cleaner, smoother, more spacious sound stage, instruments are better separated, clean smooth and refined treble etc, I can just hear an obvious difference and can blast the volume up and nothing is fatiguing, it just sounds great.

With the AVR's DAC everything sounds more compressed and flatter, not sure what other words to use, raising the volume with its internal DAC the treble is harsh and gets harsher the higher the volume is. Treble response and sound stage are the most obvious... Not sure how else to describe that, they just sound less "messed up" or less ruined...

As for what I want, to put it in simplest way, is an AVR with a better DAC than the Pioneer vsx 1021.

 

[middlemarch]

As stated earlier, I think we need more details on your requirements. I think an earlier generation AVR would work for you (my suggestion is Denon). As long as you go with a 2015 model or newer you should get all that you're looking for. That would be an X**** series, suggest X3400 or newer or X4300 or newer. These would set you back less than $500. And they support all the goodness that OCA is doing which should satisfy your PEQ cravings for a good bit. Plus they support 4K if you eventually go in that direction.

 

[schotky]

Those aren't characteristics of a DAC. If there's a defect with a DAC it's usually noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background) but that's also the most likely defect/difference with most electronics unless you overdrive an amp (or something) into clipping/distortion.

There could be some EQ or tone control settings, but more likely it's just loudness differences which can be perceived as lots of different things. Or, it's just an imaginary placebo effect.

Well i hear the differences when I use external DAC.... the AVR doesn't sound broken or anything like that, it just sounds way less refined when I use its internal DAC...

EQ and all that is all turned off, definitely not a loudness thing, the difference is cleaner smoother more refined audio output. Something for sure in the digital section in the AVR is messing up the sound, and I happen to notice biggest difference when using an external DAC...

 

[Thighsofsteel]

What sort of budget have you set for this?

 

[schotky]

What sort of budget have you set for this?

Somewhere up to $1k second hand, the lower the better of course

 

[schotky]

As stated earlier, I think we need more details on your requirements. I think an earlier generation AVR would work for you (my suggestion is Denon). As long as you go with a 2015 model or newer you should get all that you're looking for. That would be an X**** series, suggest X3400 or newer or X4300 or newer. These would set you back less than $500. And they support all the goodness that OCA is doing which should satisfy your PEQ cravings for a good bit. Plus they support 4K if you eventually go in that direction.

My main requirements are a good DAC and at least 90w per channel on 2 speakers used. The other mentioned bits in the main post would be just great extras. Not sure what other details I need to include... Maybe if you mention something specific could help me include additional details..?

I'll have a look at the Denon X models you mentioned, it sounds like a good start, especially at that price. I didn't know where to start or what models and brands to look at, from other's reviews and comparisons, I only have some info that Yamaha in general are "softer" and slower in the low frequency due to their low slew rate in the amplifier compared to other amps. I listen to fairly dynamic music mostly so that bit is important too. It would be less important for jazz, blues or any slower music. Maybe that's another extra info...?

 

[Kremmen]

What specifically is ridiculous regarding DACs and audio in that?

And what is silly in the proposed solution other than that I use 4 speakers for music, I am aware it's not an everyday thing, but I like how it sounds

Hi there.

I was just wondering if the 4 speaker setup you are referring to is similar to the speaker outputs on my two Yamaha amps (AX596 and AX392) which allow stereo speaker sets A and B to be turned on and off independently, allowing both to be turned on at the same time, usually for running stereo speakers in two rooms at the same time (or perhaps something like a living room and dining room which have a large opening between them)?

Or do you have two sets of stereo speakers playing in the same room at the same time?

 

[schotky]

Hi there.

I was just wondering if the 4 speaker setup you are referring to is similar to the speaker outputs on my two Yamaha amps (AX596 and AX392) which allow stereo speaker sets A and B to be turned on and off independently, allowing both to be turned on at the same time, usually for running stereo speakers in two rooms at the same time (or perhaps something like a living room and dining room which have a large opening between them)?

Or do you have two sets of stereo speakers playing in the same room at the same time?

Hi

It's actually none of those, it's basically a standard 2 speaker stereo setup with added 2 surround speakers. I have two main floorstanding speakers, and the other 2 which are smaller are behind me. In music what comes out of them are the extra bits so to speak which are mastered in the music track in a specific way.

For example, on studio recorded tracks usually backing vocals or tom-toms only out of the whole drum set come out of the rear speakers and nothing else, or the ambient sound or other sounds and effects, or the second guitar only etc, but the main instruments and vocals are heard only on the front speakers.

On live recordings, usually just the noise the crowd is making is heard or whatever that doesn't come from the main stage where the band is playing and such. To me it adds more to the musical experience.

 

[Thighsofsteel]

Somewhere up to $1k second hand, the lower the better of course

You might be able to find something like an Anthem MRX720 sub $1000 which is a good product, has plenty of power and the added bonus of Room Correction.

 

[schotky]

You might be able to find something like an Anthem MRX720 sub $1000 which is a good product, has plenty of power and the added bonus of Room Correction.

That's an interesting proposition, I've read that apparently their HDMI ARC has issues, which is the only HDMI port I'd need to use...

Some are saying that Anthem are pretty good AVRs but their firmware tends to be unreliable and flimsy... So not sure but willing to give it try

 

[EasyC]

I would recommend a Denon or Marantz with the free A1 Evo (now Acoustica) from OCA. Great sound for music and movies (depending on your speakers of course). A 3700 or 3800 would do great.

 

[FrantzM]

HI

Welcome to ASR. Please understand that the following is said with no condescension: You need to recalibrate your views on sound reproduction.

This is the place to be if you are willing. You stay here, you learn and you will enjoy so much music as to wonder everyday how such good sound can be had for so little money .. Yes...
Please read this:

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time..​

This post from @a2lowvw says it all:

I feel a link to this post should be sent to every new user as a welcome/greeting to ASR. Truth be told I found this gem after buying a bunch of gear. At first I was mad at myself for not doing more research on each individual component but after getting 250 hours of burn in my golden ears have come to realize that I have the best system I have ever had and as time goes on I have room for improvements.

It is also my contention that a good AVR is the best hub for music reproduction, they pack a lot (Preamp, Amps, decoder for MCH, Room Correction , Tuner, etc) and in the big scheme of things Hi-Fi, do not cost much.
I would suggest Denon or Marantz.. In particular the AVR-X3800. Coupled with the $200 Audyssey MultEQ-X windows software or the free OCA EVO ACOUSTICA

Peace.

 

[Svend P]

There is nothing wrong with your Pioneer, except you may have an eq enabled or something like that. A newer receiver will not sound better, with the caveat that modern room correction might give a better performance. I am not familiar with Pioneers MCACC.

All DAC's and amplifiers sound the same. Room correction and speakers makes a huge difference to the sound.

 

[Thighsofsteel]

That's an interesting proposition, I've read that apparently their HDMI ARC has issues, which is the only HDMI port I'd need to use...

Some are saying that Anthem are pretty good AVRs but their firmware tends to be unreliable and flimsy... So not sure but willing to give it try

Dont read too much into internet chat. The MRX720 is 8/9years old now. The firmware is most likely solid.

 

[schotky]

HI

Welcome to ASR. Please understand that the following is said with no condescension: You need to recalibrate your views on sound reproduction.

This is the place to be if you are willing. You stay here, you learn and you will enjoy so much music as to wonder everyday how such good sound can be had for so little money .. Yes...
Please read this:

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time..​

This post from @a2lowvw says it all:




It is also my contention that a good AVR is the best hub for music reproduction, they pack a lot (Preamp, Amps, decoder for MCH, Room Correction , Tuner, etc) and in the big scheme of things Hi-Fi, do not cost much.
I would suggest Denon or Marantz.. In particular the AVR-X3800. Coupled with the $200 Audyssey MultEQ-X windows software or the free OCA EVO ACOUSTICA

Peace.

Always open to learn and understand things better, atm I'm going with what I see from the tests and comparisons I've done personally.

Additional input is always welcome, so thanks for the link I'll have a deeper look into it.

I agree regarding AVRs, it's a pretty much complete package unless you want to go a bit crazy with all separates which gives you more flexibility over each component, but with good AVR I should be happy, thus I came to this forum

Prices here though are considerable limiting factor, as here in Australia the cost of electronics is quite literally unreasonable for both new and second hand, about 50-100% more compared to the US... Cause of that I might need to aim for X3600 or X3700 max second hand, and none available atm

Any specific Marantz line or models?