jbattman1016
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I don't think file support was changed on the device. I also though the change was post decoding of audio files, I could be wrong.
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Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review
- Thread starter amirm
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Hey guys,
Thinking about simplifying my setup and looking for opinions.
Currently I have a parasound p7, parasound a21amp, and benchmark dac 3 for 2ch listening on my ascend RAAL ELX towers. I was curious if you all think the newer Denon 8500HA would be an Improvement or not over the parasound and benchmark setup for strictly 2 ch listening? Oh, my current AV procesor is the Yamaha cx-a5200…and I do plan to keep the parasound amp regardless.
Any feedback would be great! The p7 is approaching like 14 years since it was developed as a side note.
Thinking about simplifying my setup and looking for opinions.
Currently I have a parasound p7, parasound a21amp, and benchmark dac 3 for 2ch listening on my ascend RAAL ELX towers. I was curious if you all think the newer Denon 8500HA would be an Improvement or not over the parasound and benchmark setup for strictly 2 ch listening? Oh, my current AV procesor is the Yamaha cx-a5200…and I do plan to keep the parasound amp regardless.
Any feedback would be great! The p7 is approaching like 14 years since it was developed as a side note.
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I doubt you will hear any significant difference with the Denon 8500HA. In fact, for stereo your existing Benchmark DAC and amp will most likely sound better to your ears.
There's no way to know how many volts the X8500H is putting out through pre-outs at any given time, is there? Amir states that distortion begins at 1.5v out, so would love to know where that is. If 2v is max output, does it correlate that 3/4 volume might be around 1.5v out?
It's super hard to know definitively without a multimeter, however
dB Gain Calculator
Determine dB gain by entering initial and final power levels into the dB gain calculator.
www.omnicalculator.com
Using this, and plugging in 2.047V, you probably just need to limit the volume to -3 dB (or "79") to stay under 1.5V out. You only lose 0.5V dropping 3 dB, but if you try to increase 3 dB, it goes to almost 3V which captures the idea that a lot of the time, we stay in the lower voltage range (for a high gain amplifier).
Wow. Super helpful! Thank you.It's super hard to know definitively without a multimeter, however
dB Gain Calculator
Determine dB gain by entering initial and final power levels into the dB gain calculator.
Using this, and plugging in 2.047V, you probably just need to limit the volume to -3 dB (or "79") to stay under 1.5V out. You only lose 0.5V dropping 3 dB, but if you try to increase 3 dB, it goes to almost 3V which captures the idea that a lot of the time, we stay in the lower voltage range (for a high gain amplifier).
The other impact of this, which is hard to know is if +0 dB is 2V and many of us listen at -20 dB on the receiver, and the receiver talks about peak which is another 20 dB of dynamic range, then IN THEORY, your pre-out is typically only 20 millivolt to 200 millivolt! The SINAD chart starts at 300mV...
jbattman1016
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Here I am sitting between -50db and -40db.
The voltage output per channel at any specific instant is not known without measurements. The maximum voltage a system will output per channel at a given volume control setting can be calculated, which provides a very useful answer.
The maximum preamp output voltage out at reference level for each channel can be calculated in an Audyssey calibrated system.
For a calibrated system:
Maximum preamp out voltage to drive a channel (individual speaker) to 105dB SPL reference level at the listening position is 1.4V (this can vary slightly from model to model) from a Denon/Marantz AVR which is the output if the external volume control (the one the user sees), is set at 0dB/80
plus
the voltage offset of the channel. Let's say the voltage offset is -3dB.
- Preamp output at reference level: 1.4V + (-3dB) = 1Vrms
To determine the output at a specific setting of the external volume control add the dB setting of the external volume control the previously calculated output at reference level:
If the external volume control is set at -12dB/68
- Preamp output at external volume control setting of -12dB: 1.0V + (-12dB) = .25Vrms
Another example: Let's say the external volume control is set to +6dB.
- Preamp output at external volume control setting of +6dB: 1.0V + 6dB) = 2.0Vrms
Maximum SPL output level from a channel at the listening can obtained from the external volume control setting.
Maximum amplifier power output depends on the maximum preamp voltage output, which can be calculated as above; power amplifier voltage gain, which is known to fairly good accuracy, and the loudspeaker effective impedance at any particular moment, which is unknown. Power output at assumed loudspeaker impedances, such as 4 ohms or 8 ohms can be calculated.
For Marantz AVP's, such as the AV 10, AV8805 or AV7706 the XLR (balanced) output at reference level is 2.8Vrms instead of 1.4Vrms. Just substitute 2.8V for the1.4V in the above calculations. The RCA (single-ended) output remains at 1.4Vrms.
Note: The above does not apply to the subwoofer channels.
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In addition to bigguyca's highly informative post, I would like to add, and emphasize that you are correct that without measuring it, there is in fact no way to know "how many volts the X8500H is putting out through pre-outs at any given time". At least that is the way it is by "at any given time" you referred to real world use for music/movies listening, when the input signal voltage obviously would vary continuously.
For fixed signal input voltage, then of course you can know, by calculations and bigguyca did a great job showing how it could be done.
Lastly, no, 2 V is not the maximum output, it is just the standard Amir typically use for maximum when measuring pre out performance on the RCA outputs, and 4 V XLR outputs. He had, on occasion measured the same up to much higher level, even higher than 4 V. Based on that, and Denon+Marantz's own published numbers, you can safely assume the likes of the X8500H could output higher than 4 V before clipping.
For reference, Amir measured the X6700H at higher level, > 4V:
That's 4.4 V with volume set to 90, it could have gone higher, but SINAD would be lower at higher level whereas at 4.4 V it still managed 92 dB SINAD.
As mentioned, those numbers, such as at volume 90, are based on the test signal at 0 dBFS, so you can't assume when in use, your X8500H would be putting out 4.4 V, it could be more, ore less, you just won't know unless you know the music, or movie sound track's input signal voltage on "any given time".
For the X8500H, Amir showed that there's basically no deterioration up to 2v.
Has anyone experienced their Denon shutting down, then turning back on randomly, over and over? It just happened to me and I believe it is a current issue on my circuit. I have added multiple amps to the circuit and I believe it hit the limit. I've moved some equipment to another nearby circuit and it looks like it may have solved the issue. I was bracing for a dying unit.
Had a defective one that behaved like that before it just quit altogether. Hope your fix fixes it!
Ugh! I hope it's all right. So far so good after moving some equipment off of the circuit. I think I'll call an electrician to see if I might be able to upgrade the circuit at all, or separate the two outlets that are apparently on the same circuit.
That's scary, do you have a meter to check the line voltage at the outlet in question?
Was the Denon the only thing on that line to shut on and off?
Only a badly low voltage "might" cause the to Denon to power cycle. But other than that I'd worry
about a bad connection where the power line wires connect to the wall outlet (or before that) ?
A very strange issue.
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Does the Denon power cycle after you turn on one of your amps? Or when nothing is being changed?
I have an Adcom amp that will cause the Denon 4700 to power cycle if the amp is turned on while the 4700 is already powered. I checked the Adcom and found it creates a power draw of over 300W when turned on. By turning the Adcom on first I avoid the issue. After the Adcom GFA-7000 is on, idle power drops to 56W but that initial turn on is 6x that amount.
I have an Adcom amp that will cause the Denon 4700 to power cycle if the amp is turned on while the 4700 is already powered. I checked the Adcom and found it creates a power draw of over 300W when turned on. By turning the Adcom on first I avoid the issue. After the Adcom GFA-7000 is on, idle power drops to 56W but that initial turn on is 6x that amount.
I thought there might be an issue with outside power and called PG&E and they came out today and tightened everything up. But that wasn't the issue. I think the best next move is to get an electrician over to help diagnose/improve the situation.
It's not on start-up. It happened randomly well after start-up. It "looks" like things have stabilized now that I've moved a number of electronics and my internet modem off of the circuit.
Crap...It happened again. Oh man...I paid $3k for that AVR less than a year ago...Will still get an electrician out. Is this really a sign of a dying AVR?
I'd start with a soft reset (unplug the avr from power). If that doesn't do anything then I'd run a factory/microprocessor reset....
