Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[amirm]

Hmmm I thought that clock jitter reducer which is not present in the x3600h would make a difference... so it seems it does but not in a positive way

Seeing how you can't even run the standard jitter test on it, I doubt any testing was done on that front.

 

[mrmoizy]

View attachment 69608

Let me write the next tweet for the marketing department - "You know it has 8K though, right? Pretty sick."

 

[3125b]

Good idea @MZKM
Just this one time maybe if it's feasible, extrapolating from my old amp I suspect very high output impedance but also lots of power.

 

[mrmoizy]

Hey @amirm , just wanted to say thanks for doing all of these tests you do. They are very informative, not just on a product-by-product comparison basis, but as a non-engineer, I've learned a lot from reading your tests and analyses. Really appreciate your time and effort

 

[MZKM]

Usually they have very high impedance as they simply tap into the amplifier with an inline resistor. That makes them anemic on high impedance headphones and changes their frequency response.

Thanks; I think Emotiva also does this for their A-100, and you can even remove it to get 12W into 33ohm (1.3W into 300ohm)!

 

[Deeluik]

Thanks: Would be very interesting to see how the x3700h measures. Also was the preamp mode tested in the x4700h @amirm ?

 

[restorer-john]

Extremely comprehensive review @amirm

I too share your disappointment that CD performance metrics from nearly 4 decades ago are not approached, letalone met. And yet they proudly have a sticker on the front panel trumpeting their legacy since 1910:

No doubt there are Nippon Columbia/Denon pioneering engineers turning in their graves right now.

 

[Beershaun]

As I read Amir's review the Amplifier is actually the bright spot here. The problems is F$%^#ing HDMI is a terrible digital signal transport mechanism for music and the digital pre-amp side of this unit had no testing targets. This is the result of "you get what you measure." or as Amir said "if you don't have any goals, chances are you won't hit them."

I am planning to update my home theater setup for 4K Dolbyvision so am in the market, but am now at a loss for why I would even by an AVR as a pre-amp. And how do I avoid HDMI completely in the audio signal chain.

My Gen1 FireTV with optical out is going up on ebay for $1000 next week.

 

[Deeluik]

As I read Amir's review the Amplifier is actually the bright spot here. The problems is F$%^#ing HDMI is a terrible digital signal transport mechanism for music and the digital pre-amp side of this unit had no testing targets. This is the result of "you get what you measure." or as Amir said "if you don't have any goals, chances are you won't hit them."

I am planning to update my home theater setup for 4K Dolbyvision so am in the market, but am now at a loss for why I would even by an AVR as a pre-amp. And how do I avoid HDMI completely in the audio signal chain.

My Gen1 FireTV with optical out is going up on ebay for $1000 next week.

Completely agree on HDMI, that is why I use a computer nowadays, which you could connect to a proper mch usb audio interface as pre-amp like the Oktoresearch DAC which was measured on ASR. In the computer I use Jriver mc as a virtual avr/video/audio player and browser and apps connect via the jriver mc wdm driver. In my case I don’t have a usb mch pre-amp yet but an Oppo blu-ray player connected via HDMI (don’t like it but have no other option at the moment). And no atmos dtsx etc but at least decent 5.1/7.1 audio.

 

[Trouble Maker]

Conclusions
If you don't have any goals, you are likely to miss them! -- Amir when reviewing Denon AVR-X4700H

I was thinking exactly that reading through the results. There is no way they even set any quantitative project targets. It seems like the 3600 was either purely an accident/fluke or 1 team/project lead gave a shit one time, which is also an accident but at a company level.

Do they actually employ engineers or just gamblers?

Please keep in mind I know nothing about Denon or the usual structure of companies in the audio industry. I do know a thing or two (not much more) about working at a very large OEM (as well as suppliers), which uses in house designed and made parts as well as many supplier made parts. So, I'm making some extrapolations here. I would venture to gamble that any company this large has to pick a strategy of how much or specifically what they are going to do in house VS spec to supplier. At least they should try to intelligently chose a strategy hopefully based on what they are good at doing, what is critical for them to do VS not so critical, but some are probably just also falling into it by accident. So some companies say they are good at... specifying parts to put together? It's entirely possible that Denon is not designing or making a single actual part inside of that unit. Even then it is still up to the OEM to make a solid thorough spec, test and hold the suppliers accountable to the spec, as well as the obvious final fully assembled unit performance. But at some point when you go to far down the rabbit hole of using only supplier parts the job starts to morph from engineer to project manager. IMHO when you get too many of those, things start to fall apart.

 

[North_Sky]

The first thing that stroke me was to see legacy composite and component video connectors in the back. Two, the new single 8K HDMI input. Three, you still need an external stereo amplifier for a full 7.2.4 Dolby Atmos setup.

Even (oven) if they would put a microwave oven (or toaster) inside the unit I wouldn't be interested.

 

[3125b]

Thats about what I thought. Too much outsourcing can come back to haunt them.
I have no experience in the field whatsoever, but seeing that this procuct performs worse than the cheaper model from the previous generation, something has to be seriously wrong with their product development.
That what I mean by "mostly random performance", as Amir has pointed out in the review.
Plus the apparently non-functional fan (or fan control), that doesn't boad well.

 

[LTig]

Since the trend rather seems to be that SINAD of the preamp section drops with each new generation my old Marantz AV7701 looks better and better with each new review.

 

[Xyrium]

Not to be a negative Nelly, but I'm not sure that AVRs are worth your time, or backlog. Even if you got one that performed as well, it would have little impact anyway, IMVHO.

Have any studies been done on performance per channel, in correlation to surround sound intelligibility?

 

[tecnogadget]

@amirm I know it is time consuming and increased workload, but have you considered to also tests the power capabilities of AVR amps with all chanel driven ?
Most people will use them for 5.1/7.1 movies and this is one of the factors that separates real performers from ordinary since 90% of the time they loose power capability when going past 2ch. Example: “X Avr” measures 100w @2ch, then it only reaches 50w/40w @5.1ch

 

[Sancus]

Not to be a negative Nelly, but I'm not sure that AVRs are worth your time, or backlog. Even if you got one that performed as well, it would have little impact anyway, IMVHO.

I don't agree with this, AVRs are the only electronics reviews I even read anymore.

 

[Deeluik]

It’s really a shame that scarce materials get wasted on such poorly engineered products!
Somehow I hope the work of Amir here will trigger a shift towards better engineered products in this business. At least I’m happy I sold my Denon AVR last year and didn’t replace it as I was underwhelmed by it’s performance. Actually the best 2ch sound was produced using an old Airport Express via toslink as the built in Airplay was unstable and sounding bad. This is actually confirmed by the measurements of Amir

I’m also scared of the fan inside these units as it may accidentally provide extra oxygen when these things catch fire as there was no specification for when the fan should be triggered

 

[tecnogadget]

I don't agree with this, AVRs are the only electronics reviews I even read anymore.

Exacly ! I mean why should we limit audio science to only 2ch gear ?? Is sonic bliss only reserved to music ? Why can’t I wish to get sonic bliss out of movies too ? Movies contains soundtracks

 

[GXAlan]

Pure speculation. But I do spend time reading various interviews in US and translated foreign languages.

There are at least two teams at Denon. One is the 3700H and below team. The other is the 6700H and above team. I don't know where the 4700H lies.

The X3700H is likely fully subcontracted out for its design and relies on the most single-chip integration. Since it does not need the extra processing power for Auro3D and has some limitations with DTS Virtual X/Audyssey, it represents the "best" implementation of what the B-team can do.

The X6500 is talked about as a near flagship, and at the time they built the X6500H, they were planning the X8500H. This is built around a different team in Japan. In fact, the x6 and x8 series are made in Japan. All I ever hear is the analog performance and amplifier performance of these units. The more amps/channels you add to a box, the higher likelihood you run into problems. The DDSC-HD and AL32 processing which is forced on may add noise to the system even though the benefits of AL32 may not be heard. (The original ALPHA processing was beneficial in the early era of16-bit DACs, but it gets hard to drop the brand/technology despite improvements in DAC chips).

The X4 series is odd. They are not made in the Japanese factory, but utilizes the CPU board from the X8500h (reportedly).

From a science standpoint, we need to test the X3700H, which would show the impact of the HDMI receiver and the X8500H to show what Denon's flagship engineers in Japan are targeting (as opposed to fortuitously reaching with the x3600H).

I also remember from JBL's history that one of the best speakers was the HLS-610, developed by Allan Devantier. So even though it was a budget speaker, it sounded really good because of the team. There may very well be an engineer on the X3600H team who is the secret behind Denon.

 

[BsdKurt]

I joined the Denon webinar on DTS:X Pro so I could ask a few questions. One of them was if the pre-amp mode completely cut the power to all the internal amplifiers such that the unit runs cold all the time. The written answer I received back in the chat window was yes it cuts all the power to the internal amplifiers and runs cold.

@amirm would it be possible to check the pre-amp mode?

Edit: type-o