Marantz Cinema 40 AVR Review

[Miker 1102]

Thanks. Much appreciated.

 

[hyfynut]

It is precisely such possible real-life situations that say something about the performance. However, I do not believe that this AVR will still performs well at 4ohm/5ch. You can already see deviations from the ideal with one channel driven at 4ohm

That's why I'd like to see these measurements on all amplifiers and receivers. We'd have a better idea what to expect from the product.

 

[peng]

Thanks. Much appreciated.

You are welcome, and by the way, if you are still a little disappointed with the lower SINAD Amir measured vs the C40 and X4800H, keep in mind sometime things could happen during measurements that might affect the numbers such as noise introduced somehow. Amir even measured that a few times and he had to do something with the wiring before obtaining better numbers. It is not impossible that something like that happened in his measurements of the X3800H.

The fact is too, his measurements typically lined up well when compared with D+M's own internal ones. In the case of the X3800H, Denon's own measurements as show in the Masimo video shows it did reach 94 dB SINAD at 2 V, and clipped at about 3.75 V:

In non preamp mode, SINAD obviously dropped at about 1.4 V, same as what Amir typically found, but it really didn't actually clip until close to 4 V as you can see in their graph. They labelled it as clipping level at 1.41 V just to line up with Amir's, based on the point when distortions rise rapidly, but it did settle at about 0.02% THD+N, that is 74 dB SINAD until it really clipped at pass 3 V, about 3.5 V if you can see it clear enough. Also noticed that Denon labelled that as P.AMP (i.e. power amp) clipping level, that is more correct because at that point the power amp clipped, thereby introducing higher distortion measured on the pre out.

 

[ivo.f.doma]

Even so, I can't get rid of my doubts as to why he changed the measurement methodology for the 4800 compared to the 3800. And why for the C40 he used a better result in the tables via optics and not HDMI as with the 3800.

 

[peng]

Even so, I can't get rid of my doubts as to why he changed the measurement methodology for the 4800 compared to the 3800. And why for the C40 he used a better result in the tables via optics and not HDMI as with the 3800.

Are you talking about the measurements for the preamp/dac output? If so, I think he fixed it now by including both for the Cinema 40, and you can figure what it would have been for the X4800H, based on the slight difference in score between both methods including in the Cinema 40's measurements. I hope he would both in future AVRs/AVPs reviews.

Regarding using the better results between optical vs HDMI, he said in post#4:

It should as HDMI is certainly the most common source. The "issue" if you call it is that I use my computer as HDMI source. Everyone else uses an HDMI module in the AP analyzer. From past interactions, it seems that the AP generates a cleaner HDMI signal (as it should). Is a standard HDMI source (BD player) as clean as the AP HDMI module or my PC? I don't know. I need to measure that at some point.

Meanwhile I asked AP how much their new HDMI module costs. I think they said $7,000! And it won't fit my version of the APx555 to boot. So I can't do any comparisons.

As a result of all of this, I am giving the benefit of doubt that HDMI should be as clean as Toslink and go with that. Yes, I keep bending the rules for AV products. What can I say.

and he further explained why the inconsistencies in doing this in post#18 in the AVM 90 review thread:

Anthem AVM90 AV Processor Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Anthem AVM90 home theater 15.4 channel Audio/Video Processor. It was sent to me by the company and is on sale for US $6375. As you see, the AVM90 sports a gorgeous, high contrast and large display. It is a joy to navigate this feature as it is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I compared Toslink to HDMI and the results were the same so post the HDMI ones. The level of noise coming out of HDMI on my PC is variable and when I tested the AVM90, it was on good behavior.

So, I think he has done a great job clarifying, just that the comments are scattered in two thread and in two posts buried with pages of posts.

 

[Miker 1102]

Moderator doesn't want us to derail too much

I actually find something and I don't think our mod would have issue with this as it is also a review, by a dealer in Taiwan:

If you follow the link you can get it translated and read the whole review. The information looks credible as they appear to have done a teardown so they could see what's used in it, but still not 100%. That's the best I can find so far, it looks like unlike Denon, this time Marantz seem to keep the details of the Cinema series secret, yet they are not shy to tell you a lot more details of their flagship AV10.

Marantz Cinema 40 9.4聲道環繞擴大機評測：日本白河工廠製造，影音都是最頂級的享受！

Marantz Cinema系列環擴一共推出了四個型號，分別為Cinema 70’s、Cinema 60、Cinema 50和Cinema 40，數字越少等級越高，我們之前已經介紹過前面三款，這次要介紹旗艦的Cinema 40。這款環擴來頭可不小，因為它是Cinema系列中唯一一款在Marantz日本白河工廠生產，雖然在規格上與Cinema 50看似大致相同，但Cinema 40無論是做 ...

www-audionet-com-tw.translate.goog

You are welcome, and by the way, if you are still a little disappointed with the lower SINAD Amir measured vs the C40 and X4800H, keep in mind sometime things could happen during measurements that might affect the numbers such as noise introduced somehow. Amir even measured that a few times and he had to do something with the wiring before obtaining better numbers. It is not impossible that something like that happened in his measurements of the X3800H.

The fact is too, his measurements typically lined up well when compared with D+M's own internal ones. In the case of the X3800H, Denon's own measurements as show in the Masimo video shows it did reach 94 dB SINAD at 2 V, and clipped at about 3.75 V:

In non preamp mode, SINAD obviously dropped at about 1.4 V, same as what Amir typically found, but it really didn't actually clip until close to 4 V as you can see in their graph. They labelled it as clipping level at 1.41 V just to line up with Amir's, based on the point when distortions rise rapidly, but it did settle at about 0.02% THD+N, that is 74 dB SINAD until it really clipped at pass 3 V, about 3.5 V if you can see it clear enough. Also noticed that Denon labelled that as P.AMP (i.e. power amp) clipping level, that is more correct because at that point the power amp clipped, thereby introducing higher distortion measured on the pre out.

View attachment 337190

Yes! This is spot on because I played the 3800 and I posted in that review where I thought I was getting distortion at that same decibel range on the internal compared to my 4400h where I never heard it. I was trying to show the difference between the dacs and also shows exactly how close Amir's measurements are. Thanks again. I really learned a lot reading these threads. You guys really know your stuff! I need to send Amir a Christmas donation.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz Cinema 40 9.4 channel AV Receiver (AVR). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,500.
View attachment 335356
As is typical in this class, you get a very large box. At least the look is unique and to my liking. The port hole display while limiting fits in the style.

Back panel as usual has hundreds of connections:
View attachment 335357

While I liked the remote on Marantz AV 10 I reviewed recently, in this instance had rather sticking and hard to use 4-way arrow buttons. I updated the unit to latest firmware and performed a factory reset for testing.

Marantz Cinema 40 DAC Measurements
I set the pre-outs to be only that (not driving speakers) and tested the left front and right front channels using HDMI input:
View attachment 335358
Usually I don't see a difference in "Pure Direct" mode here but as noted, we earned 2 dB for turning off some subsystems in the receiver. We gained more though by using Toslink:
View attachment 335359
Giving the benefit of doubt and going with this value of SINAD (ratio of noise+distortion), we get a reasonable ranking for an AV product:
View attachment 335360

Above is at volume level of 82.5 which on all Denon/Marantz products generates nominal 2 volts out. We can test at other levels first by sweeping the digital input level:
View attachment 335363

As you see, we already have the optimal output at 2 volts/volume of 82.5. As you crank up the volume, noise level increases so performance drops (green). You do get more output though if you need that at the expense of distortion. At 3.6 volt though, the preamp clips so best to not go above that.

We can alternatively keep the input at full digital level but crank up the volume 30 dB starting at volume level 58 dB going up to 88 dB:
View attachment 335364

I have put a cursor at 2 volt/82.5 volume level. All the way on the left is volume level of 58 dB which has a SINAD of 84.5 (13 dB loss relative to 2 volts out).

Would have been nice to land in green though. Form here on, I used Toslink unless noted otherwise. Noise performance is good for AV class:
View attachment 335361

IMD is not great as DACs are concerned but in the context of AV products, we bend the rules and call it good:
View attachment 335362

Multitone response is where the rest of the measurements are:
View attachment 335365

50 Hz response is the same.
View attachment 335368

AV products tend to generate suboptimal linearity but results are fairly good for the class:
View attachment 335369

We have a pronounced jitter source at 6 kHz that gets worse with HDMI:
View attachment 335370

I am relieved that Marantz now has a proper filter but its attenuation needs to be improved:
View attachment 335371

Frequency response is flat which we didn't have in previous generations:
View attachment 335372

The less than ideal filter impacts wideband THD+N measurements:
View attachment 335373

We can see that clearly by performing a wideband spectrum analysis of 1 kHz:
View attachment 335374

The tall spikes are the reason the previous graph looks so poor. Fortunately they are not audible.

Marantz Cinema 40 Amplifier Measurements
Let's start with the same Toslink input and see what we get at 5 watts:
View attachment 335375
That is decent performance which improves a bit with analog input:
View attachment 335376

Average for all amplifiers tested is in low 80s so the Cinema 40 is doing good here:
View attachment 335377

And oh, no warm up issues as we saw in Cinema 70s AVR review:
View attachment 335378

Noise performance is very good:
View attachment 335379

Frequency response is wide and unimpeded with analog input:
View attachment 335380

Crosstalk is disappointing:
View attachment 335381

Same for 19 and 20 kHz tones:
View attachment 335382

That's because distortion sharply rises at high frequencies:
View attachment 335383

Which we can confirm in our power vs frequency sweeps:
View attachment 335384

We do have good bit of power with overall good performance:
View attachment 335385
Some kind of feedback loop is keeping distortion constant but allows it to rise early in the sweep.
View attachment 335386

We naturally have some headroom as the power supply has to feed more than the two channels we test:
View attachment 335387

Marantz Cinema 40 Reactive Load Testing
For desert, we have some stress testing by varying the phase from -60 to +60 with resistance of 8 down to 2 ohm:
View attachment 335388
Ideal amp would keep its output voltage constant no matter what the load. Here we some drooping but good robustness, handling down to 2 ohm even though it is rated at 6 ohm! Even though voltage drops as impedance decreases, we still pump out a lot of power:
View attachment 335389

I should note that the amplifier never shut down even though it was pushed hard and into clipping. Very happy about that!

Conclusions
Our suite measurements show some progress toward a more uniform and performant AV product, far outperforming previous generation AV products from Marantz. Other than the weak attenuation of the filter, there are no major holes. I like to see the company attempt to climb up one step in total performance as to not make me stress over whether recommending it or not!

I am going to recommend the Marantz Cinema 40 AVR. It is expensive but delivers good enough performance.

------------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

Not completely on topic for this review; but I haven't seen measurements of your mains voltages while testing amplifiers? Would this not be of relevance to performance? Especially in those cases where the tested amplifier seems to not live up the specified power output.

I know Williston Labs publish these supply voltages (they are car audio amps so 13-15 VDC) on his "Amp Dyno"

 

[exm]

In a 7.2 setup (not mine), how does this one compare to the SR8015?

 

[bigguyca]

AP get's more and more greedy ... I paid 6k this year to get my software to the newest version and keep it updated for the next 5 years - so I am able to simply use my 20k measurement device! (Cause THEY had a bug with windows .NET update!)
Couldn't you use the old module for just transfering Audio? Maybe the distributor can organise that?

Aren't there any multichannel Digital Audio/HDMI converters? Such a device should do it also. Cause the Computer HDMI output ... really can't be trusted.

Per memory, Warren Buffet (or Berkshire Hathaway) bought AP a few years ago. Warren only purchased AP for one reason.

One of Warren Buffet's key characteristics for purchasing a company is purchasing a company with pricing power.

See the same result with Heinz Ketchup, Johns Manville and other companies.

Buffet owns the Burlington Northern RR. Significant Burlington revenue comes from hauling crude oil out of the Wyoming and areas to the north. The Keystone Pipeline would have lowered prices for transporting this crude...

 

[Holmes]

ok so for the understanding of the other 99 percent non engeneering background readers of this forum... is it correct to deduce that the C40 is far far superior to the X4800 and the price difference is justified....?

because everywhere we read people say the x4800/C40 have identical components inside and sound the same and perform the same and that all the C40 gives over X4800 is asthetics.

Is Marantz Cinema 40 sounding warmer than Denon, as Marantz and many owners of brand would confess?

 

[Descartes]

I heard from several dealers that the Cinema 30 should be as good as their AV10? Anyone has more reliable information?

 

[bigguyca]

The values for 2ohm were determined in the imp.sel. 8ohm position, correct? I don't know the exact protection design of this AVR, but couldn't it be that even more current is tolerated for 2ohm in the 4ohm position?
Has anything like this ever been measured?

The current limits and temperature limit circuits are likely separate from the rail voltage switching that would be used to implement the 4 ohms setting. Typically the lower impedance setting, that results in significantly reduced power amplifier rail voltage, will cause worse measure performance and significantly reduced power output.

Many thanks for an excellent review that includes measuring the pre out level up to 4 V, and reactive load tests on the power amps down to 2 Ohms. I think you may be the first reviewer who included those two tests in one single bench test session. Again, thank you for the nice desert!!

It looks like D+M did manage to squeeze the 93 dB SINAD spec TI PCM5102A dry, totally dry. They should patent their DAC chip implementation for achieving the seemingly impossible 98 dB SINAD you measured on the pre outs using Toslink. Even if they use differential implementation by doubling the number of the PCM chips, it doesn't seem possible to reach 98 dB when the spec for the chip all by itself is only 93 dB. Differential implementation mainly benefits in term of may be up to 6 dB noise reduction at the most anyway.

View attachment 335438

Based on the pre out performance of the Cinema 40 and the AVR-X4800H, may be D+M/Masimo has secretly replaces the PCM5102A with a better one such as the ESS's ES9010K2M??

The ratings in the chart for the TI DAC IC"s are at -1dBFS. As with typical AKM DAC IC's, the THD performance is better a few dB below 0dBFS.

Based on a rather small graph in the datasheet, if the TI DAC IC's are run at -6dBFS the THD measurements will improve further, such that they will that they will align with Amir's results.. Such a setting gives up a little SNR, but that does not appear to be an issue.

Reducing the digital volume by 6dB in the DSP process so that 0dBFS is produced at -6dBFS should improve THD. The lost 6dB can be made up with gain from the NJR volume control which has a significantly better THD+N rating than the TI DAC IC and thus should be able to give up a bit of THD+N performance, or in the Marantz unit perhaps the gain of the HDAM output buffers. I've no idea of the practicality of running the HDAM's with 6dB of voltage gain.

 

[Descartes]

Interesting why won’t Massimo let us the chips they use?

 

[peng]

Reducing the digital volume by 6dB in the DSP process so that 0dBFS is produced at -6dBFS should improve THD. The lost 6dB can be made up with gain from the NJR volume control which has a significantly better THD+N rating than the TI DAC IC and thus should be able to give up a bit of THD+N performance, or in the Marantz unit perhaps the gain of the HDAM output buffers. I've no idea of the practicality of running the HDAM's with 6dB of voltage gain.

Thank you for your explanation. I wonder if you can also comment on the measurements of the Cinema 70 (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/marantz-cinema-70s-avr-review.50334/), I asked, because like its predecessors, it doesn't have HDAMs and I don't know if Marantz still use the NJM8080 opamp to buffer the pre out like they did on some of the previous D+M models such as the following (front channels only):

Note: iirc you mentioned use use of that (seemingly redundant from what I can understand) before, long time ago...

I am serious considering getting the Cinema 70 for 2 CH stereo use because I can use DLBC (PC standalone version) with it, just wonder what the downsize may be, and whether without HDAM, is actually a good thing in terms of potentially lower THD+N, and I will be using the preamp only.

Edit:

I wonder if the Cinema 70 (probably the 60,50,40 as well) still have the opas for the FL/FR as extra buffer for the NJU72343 whether that's needed or not, and with preamp mode now, I would guess they probably would have omitted the NJM8080 to save a few $s.

 

[Miker 1102]

How would you use DLBC on the 70 series product?

 

[peng]

How would you use DLBC on the 70 series product?

I will us my PC standalone version, and use HDMI input.

 

[Miker 1102]

So a stand alone version on a PC will allow you to operate Dirac without the avr needing to officially support it? I only asked because I thought Dirac was only supported in 40, 50 and thr upcoming 30? This would be like virtual correction?

 

[peng]

So a stand alone version on a PC will allow you to operate Dirac without the avr needing to officially support it? I only asked because I thought Dirac was only supported in 40, 50 and thr upcoming 30? This would be like virtual correction?

It is not virtual, it simply runs on windows, or MacOS, instead of the AVR. I tried it in my 7.1.4 system but config for 2.1, results were good. I posted the graphs a few times but here it is again, so you don't have to search. I only work if you play contents on the PC, movies, music, or streaming. I find it perfect for my desktop system, and one of my 2.1 system in the living room, as I use window to play everything, as well as streaming from Amazon and Qobuz.

 

[Miker 1102]

I think that's what I was trying to get at ..the PC doing the processing. I did see where you had discussed this before and was trying to understand the other person who kept saying they didn't want to add a windows computer to thier home theater. I have been using a pc as a home theater forever. Thank you. I should have done my homework better on Dirac.

 

[peng]

I think that's what I was trying to get at ..the PC doing the processing. I did see where you had discussed this before and was trying to understand the other person who kept saying they didn't want to add a windows computer to thier home theater. I have been using a pc as a home theater forever. Thank you. I should have done my homework better on Dirac.

The reason why it will work for me is that I will use the AVR for 2 channel stereo music only, and I already have the JRiver license, Foobar is free ware, and I am paying for Amazon music and Qobuz too, there is no downsize for me to play everything on my PCs. For movies, I would not use HTPC because I don't want to give up things like Atomos, DTS:X etc.