Denon AVR-A1H High-end AVR Review

[mtbdudex]

Is that a Gen 1, 2 or 3?
I used to have a XPA-5 Gen 1 and thought it was great - good enough to keep. I don't think the Gen 3 models are as good.

Just tried to login to see history .. it's gone, from email:
Order Date: 10/26/2012
1x XPA-3 | 200W x 3 for $699.00 each

So, possibly Gen 1 ?
It's paid for, it works for my needs.

 

[masterhw]

Sure its good performance for 15.4 channels, but, these premium AVRs seem to deliver an increasing channel count for your money, rather than focusing on higher performance per channel. If you are someone who only needs 7 or 9 channels, there is no good option that delivers meaningfully better performance than the mid-level X3800H. Your money beyond that primarily gets you additional channels of processing/amplification. There is no audiophile-level 7.1 AVR, the MiniDSP Flex HTx is close to being that but is crippled by lack of Dolby/DTS support. I have to believe these companies just don't see a big enough market for such a device to bother delivering one. But frustrating for those who want to go from 2.0 to 5.1 or more without giving up performance, even if the difference is arguably inaudible. I don't feel compelled to open my wallet for $6500.

 

[peng]

Sure its good performance for 15.4 channels, but, these premium AVRs seem to deliver an increasing channel count for your money, rather than focusing on higher performance per channel. If you are someone who only needs 7 or 9 channels, there is no good option that delivers meaningfully better performance than the mid-level X3800H. Your money beyond that primarily gets you additional channels of processing/amplification. There is no audiophile-level 7.1 AVR, the MiniDSP Flex HTx is close to being that but is crippled by lack of Dolby/DTS support. I have to believe these companies just don't see a big enough market for such a device to bother delivering one. But frustrating for those who want to go from 2.0 to 5.1 or more without giving up performance, even if the difference is arguably inaudible. I don't feel compelled to open my wallet for $6500.

Again, I also want increase in performance, not just channel counts, but I can't think of many 5,7,9 channel power amps that "perform" better in THD+N, SNR/DR, CT than the Denon X4800H, A1H, or Marantz C40, C30. Which one would you recommend, that has better verified specs (by measurements) in the 120-150 WPC range power or even integrated amps. Obviously the likes of the AHB2, Purifi/Hypex modules based amps tend to do better but I think we are talking about class AB amps in the $2-4K range products, for viable options to mid to flagship level AVRs.

I am not saying you are, but it looks obvious based on forum posts, that lots of people seem to assume "separates" always do better on test benches, yet there isn't much evidence of that based on ASR, Audioholics, HTHF that do reviews with measurements, especially if we are comparing products at similar price points.

 

[peng]

I do not see how one can do 15.4 cheaper. Denon has the only 15.4 AVR listed on Crutchfield.

Crutchfield lists 2 AVPs with 15.4: Anthem AVM90 for $7500 and Marantz AV10 for $7000.

How is it possible to get 15.4 with amplification for less than the price of this Denon? With necessary codecs included or available (Dolby, Dirac, etc.)?

People who have harped on the cost have been asked repeatedly to list components that achieve a 15.4 processor/power combination at a lower price, with necessary codecs.

Impossible, right?

On the AVR vs AVR side of the equation, we do have the Onkyo RZ70, that may outperform the A1H slightly in terms of power output, but it's preamp section would not come close, close but not enough I guess. It also has lower channel counts, and 2 subouts vs A1H's 4, though if it's feature set meets one's requirements, the RZ70 does seem like a much better value than the Denon, based on price.

 

[fordiebianco]

I think I would prefer this combination to the Denon.

IOTAVX AVX17 + 2 x AVXP1 + 14 x AperionAudio XLR Audio Kabel Mono 1m, 4.143,30 €

Set bestehend aus IOTAVX AVX17, 2 x IOTAVX AVXP1, 14 x AperionAudio XLR Audio Kabel Mono 1m

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View attachment 427037

View attachment 427038

IOTAVX AVX17 Processor - HifiPilot, 1.799,00 €

The 17 channel preamplifier AVX17 with perfect 3D sound including Dolby Atmos & trade; & DTS: X as well as high-end DAC. Thanks to PEQ, the sound can be per

iotavx.com

IOTAVX AVXP1 7 Kanal Endstufe - HifiPilot, 1.379,00 €

Die gewaltige AVXP1 7 Kanal-Endstufe ist in Sachen Preis-Leistung wohl unübertroffen und liefert mit ihrem 1300W Netzteil zuverlässig Leistung für höchste D

iotavx.com

These are affordable and sexy!
Never heard of the brand. Will definitely think about including them in the next round of upgrades.

Thank you!

 

[Gorgonzola]

Just one of those things; it's still not clear to me why a USD 7000 receiver should perform less well that $200 DACs and amplifiers.

 

[welwynnick]

Just one of those things; it's still not clear to me why a USD 7000 receiver should perform less well that $200 DACs and amplifiers.

Because the DACs share a box with the video and audio digital signal processing, and with the power amplifiers.
If anyone could do it better than Denon, they would have done so already, but this is as good as anyone can make it.

 

[AdamG]

If you want to use outboard amps, the X8500H is superior, with almost no degradation up to 2 volts.

Which is what I have done. Don’t see any need to upgrade at present. However, I am limited to 13.2 processing. It also is only 4k hdr capable versus 8k hdr. Not a big deal for me as there is no real 8k content. But if you have invested in an 8k Tv this is something you will want. With the price of the original AVR and the cost for off boarding 12 channel of amplification. I am close to the MSRP of this model.

If you want these extra channels. You want 8k, you want room correction options and you want a single unit solution. It has an abundant amount of features and functionality packed into one single unit. In home theater arrangement with multiple subs and 15 channels going SINAD becomes harder and harder to distinguish. JMHO.

 

[peng]

Just one of those things; it's still not clear to me why a USD 7000 receiver should perform less well that $200 DACs and amplifiers.

Lots of reasons, including the following:
- 19 channels
- video capability, 8k hdmi don't come cheap.
- Multiple DSP functions, playability of multiple sound formats.
- Multiple Inputs, outputs, network capablity.
- 15 channels of power amps.d
- Large power supply for the power amps.

All those things cost, so something have to give, such as not using ICs including opamps, volume controls, dsp that have better specs. They do tend to use reasobably SOTA class DAC ICs on the flagship models, imo because that might make a lot of potential buyers think if the DAC ICs used are SOTA types, then the overall performance might just be SOTA too, unfortunately that's usually not the case.

Regardless, $2000 dac and amps, even without most of the above features, are not going to perform better. If you know of such a combination, I am sure I won't be the only one who want to look into it.

 

[GXAlan]

If legacy codecs can be licensed (with licensing fees paid presumably to run as part of the software packages like JRiver), why can't Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro 3D be similarly licensed? And please don't tell me they could not be done for less than the fees on something like a Trinov. Maybe as a Codec Overlord needs $20 k per unit when the hardware endpoint is only going to sell 50 units worldwide per annum, but on a PC? How hard would it be to recoup all your development costs and insure a lavish return if your product was on something that sold millions of units annually? Or do we need to ask Bill Gates about that one?

Sorry for taking it to the extreme. My bad for making that comparison.

I hear you from the “common sense” perspective. Companies like Cyberlink used to produce software for playing DVD and Blu-Ray’s off PC computers with PC based decoding of Dolby Digital and DTS HD.

PowerDVD 23 - Award-Winning Blu ray & 8K Media Player for Windows

The perfect solution for playing files in all popular media formats. Enhance audio and visuals with Truetheater technology. Manage your entire media library, including Blu ray and DVD movies. Plus, enjoy Ultra HD video playback, HDR10 video, and up to 7.1 surround sound.

www.cyberlink.com

But they don’t have Dolby TrueHD despite being the #1 OEM during the multimedia PC for software playback of DVDs and BDs. PowerDVD is a 2024 release as well.

We know that Trinnov is paying a license…

We know that no one else has paid for a license…

We know that the world’s #1 OEM of disc based playback is only licensing AC3 and DTS technologies…

If it’s not a technical limitation, it must be a business one.

I grant you, there does not need to be a $20K solution since the Trinnov includes a full PC, dedicated audio hardware, and you are prepaying for a level of technical support that is world class. Stripping out the COGS for the PC itself is easy enough.

But just like Dirac ART not being available on the PC/Mac from Dirac, I am sure “business” reasons prevent a low cost software based Dolby Atmos renderer for consumers that allows you take a HDMI or eARC input. Even the use of the Atmos encoder with ripped content had its loophole closed since Dolby will only sell to prevalidated companies, not end users.

Even though Yamaha licensed both DPL II and Dolby Atmos for their CX-A5100, even if you wanted to buy DPL II license, Dolby doesn’t let you do it. Same with Dolby Noise Reduction for tape playback.

But you would think that a company like Cyberlink would have created a software AVP if their licenses allowed them to do so since the fundamental know-how already exists in the company, as opposed to something like

Is 30 dB SINAD at 300W (Denon AVR-A1H) acceptable to you?

Sure. That’s at 300W, which may not be needed that commonly in systems using the A1H.

Post in thread 'Take the blind challenge! 300B SET vs. Straight Wire with Gain'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...vs-straight-wire-with-gain.43983/post-1580424

Here, a 22 dB 5W SINAD tube amp measured through a non inductive resistor at around 0.5W of power was compared to a 120 dB SINAD DAC. While there was a difference, it was smaller than people expected.

 

[Fidji]

Sure its good performance for 15.4 channels, but, these premium AVRs seem to deliver an increasing channel count for your money, rather than focusing on higher performance per channel. If you are someone who only needs 7 or 9 channels, there is no good option that delivers meaningfully better performance than the mid-level X3800H. Your money beyond that primarily gets you additional channels of processing/amplification. There is no audiophile-level 7.1 AVR, the MiniDSP Flex HTx is close to being that but is crippled by lack of Dolby/DTS support. I have to believe these companies just don't see a big enough market for such a device to bother delivering one. But frustrating for those who want to go from 2.0 to 5.1 or more without giving up performance, even if the difference is arguably inaudible. I don't feel compelled to open my wallet for $6500.

I would say Primare comes near to what you want

https://primare.net/products/spa25-prisma/

or if you want to go full audiophile 7.2 you can always splash 20k for Linn Selekt

Selekt DSM | Network Music Players | Linn International

Configure Selekt DSM to suit you - source-only, amps, Surround Sound, Katalyst or Organik DAC, bi-amp, tri-amp ... plus a whole host of connectivity.

www.linn.co.uk

and BTW you can have 8 Channel Trinnov Altitude 32, if this is what you desire.

 

[peng]

Here's the same curve that a few seems concerned about, "higher THD+M at higher test frequencies..", but for a more high end AVP than the so called high end Denon AVR:

That is no better, actually worse right, than the A1H's. So I am not saying the Denon should do better, of course it should, and I wish, but relatively speaking I think they have done a decent job.

and also take a look of the minidsp shd power, it didn't do better neither:

I don't use Denon anymore and I am not trying to defend it, just want to point out that in relative term, it did do equal or better than some of those so called "separates", that, afaik is factual based on bench test results, not just my opinion.

 

[EWL5]

I've owned a few of these, and this sort of thing is blatantly audible:

View attachment 427046

Let's not race to the bottom please.
Just because somebody published a scientific-looking report saying that subjects couldn't hear 1% THD doesn't prove it's inaudible.
I think this is one of ASR's big mistakes.
The other one is to depend on sky-high test results at 1kHz, instead of looking at performance across across the whole audio envelope.
Reputable manufacturers - almost ALL the big names - have cottoned on to this, and usually quote THDN across 20Hz-20kHz.
In every case those numbers aren't great, but they do correspond to the things that we CAN hear.

Pert the FTC:

"(1) a load impedance of 8 ohms; (2) a power band of 20 Hz to 20 kHz (except for self-powered subwoofer systems); and (3) a THD limit of less than 0.1%. FTC staff's review found amplifiers are generally designed to drive a nominal load impedance of 8 ohms; 20 Hz to 20 kHz covers the normal range of human hearing; [18] and 0.1% THD does not audibly distort a signal. Several commenters suggested these test conditions, and many manufacturers' specification sheets already disclose power outputs tested at 8 ohms, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, and at THD limits of, or slightly below, 0.1%."

Federal Register :: Request Access

If we're not gravitating towards the FTC guidelines, then just what are we doing?

 

[peng]

I think it's the rising high frequency distortion of the power amps that are more the problem.
DL ART aside, the A1H is pretty much as good as any AVP at any price.
I would just use a good external power amp for the LCR speakers.

View attachment 427062

Theoretically may be, practically I doubt it really is more the problem as such. The harmonics resulted from a 5 kHz test signal will be at 10,15,20,25,30 kHz. At levels of -75 dB, how many of us can really hear those, and in fact -75 dB is the total, the 10 kHz part probably would be at much lower level, say -80 dB? I know I can't hear 10 kHz at even as high as -60 dB, but the 20-30 years old with superb hearing might be able to even in a quiet room.

I understand the 20 and 25 kHz harmonics may produce IMD distortions that would include high frequencies back in the audio band, but the magnitude would understandably be too low to be a problem either.

So, I think while Amir provided us with so much info that no other reviewers seem to bother doing in the bench tests, we shouldn't worry too much about those curves for THD+N vs frequency when the test frequency is 10 kHz or higher.

Even Stereophile seems to have been using those test for 1 kHz only. They might have done some at higher frequency but I don't recall easily so if they did, it would be rare.

SoundstagNetwork.com did do one for the Parasound halo A23, the results showed it perform worse than the A1H in terms of THD+N:

The newer A23+ still costs about $2,099, for just two channels, 160 WPC 8 ohms, 240 W 4 ohms.

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - BHK Labs Measurements: Parasound Halo A 23+ Stereo/Mono Amplifier

www.soundstagenetwork.com

Stereo mode
(8-ohm loading)
Red line = 1W
Magenta line = 10W
Blue line = 30W
Cyan line = 160W

 

[Geert]

If we're not gravitating towards the FTC guidelines, then just what are we doing?

Different thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...24-requirements-on-output-power-claims.58972/

 

[Golfx]

And remember, the Trinnov Altitude 32 doesn’t even have the ability to power on via remote!


But here’s the thing. The SINAD from even this amp is “insignificantly” worse than a dedicated AHB2 in many home environments where the noise floor is limited by the HVAC. However, the benefits of multichannel audio are very much significant for movies.



You mean Linux boxes? The Codec overlords licensed these codecs to Trinnov. With these codecs, they have needed to invest a silly amount of money into something that isn’t 2-3K but $20K and up.

SOTA we award to -120 dB DACs when we have DACs that claim true 28-bit performance. SOTA we award to Topping Pre90’s when the Soulution preamps are better. SOTA doesn’t mean the absolute best.

It’s the best capabilities as achieved by those in the art of cinema surround processors with HDMI CEC reliability and global warranty and service capability.

When you say “codec overlords”, it really means those who invested in the development of IP related to cinema reproduction. Things are free if you steal them. But that’s stealing . Codecs aren’t free and handing the decode end to end in digital in the manner of the appropriate approved codec isn’t trivial to develop either.

Remote? Most of us with trinnovs use IP control systems. Can’t remember the last time I used the remote.

 

[masterhw]

Which one would you recommend, that has better verified specs (by measurements) in the 120-150 WPC range power or even integrated amps.

Buckeye NC502MP 8-Channel ($2250) Reviewed at 98db SINAD, or potentially LCR on the 106db measuring Purifi 3-channel ($1,495.00).
Theres not many, but there are some multichannel amps capable of being held back by the pre-outs on even flagship AVRs. I think its reasonable to raise our expectations, especially when these should be technically solved problems already (as evidenced elsewhere in the industry).

Because the DACs share a box with the video and audio digital signal processing, and with the power amplifiers.
If anyone could do it better than Denon, they would have done so already, but this is as good as anyone can make it.

If AVRs being in the video signal path is substantially adding to cost, weight, and SNR, then perhaps its time to rethink if they belong there.
The $379 WiiM Amp Pro delivers 100 dB SINAD to two channels. 8 of them gets you 16 networked and amplified channels at less than half the price of the Denon. Obviously you can't use it like this, but there is seemingly no technical barrier to why such an expensive unit should compromise on audio performance.
Well performing DACs are dirt cheap. Well performing amplification is now dirt cheap. Networking is found in even entry level integrated systems. The things unique to AVRs are multich DSP, video processing (which I would argue isn't really even required anymore), and Dolby/DTS decoding. What about these justify $6500 aside from the fact that the Denon is better than the other flagship AVRs? None of them are selling anything compelling in my books.

Each piece of the problem has been independently solved, so its surprising integration specialists like Denon are so behind in this regard. WiiM and miniDSP are within spitting distance of upsetting this industry if it doesn't keep up with the times. Customers hungry for excellent audio performance are looking elsewhere.

 

[EWL5]

Different thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...24-requirements-on-output-power-claims.58972/

I was responding to @welwynnick's implication that the FTC guidelines are still very much "wild wild West"! I do believe the FTC guidelines are a good starting point and that the preferred 0.1% THD (or less) rating is nowhere near audible.

 

[peng]

Buckeye NC502MP 8-Channel ($2250) Reviewed at 98db SINAD, or potentially LCR on the 106db measuring Purifi 3-channel ($1,495.00).
Theres not many, but there are some multichannel amps capable of being held back by the pre-outs on even flagship AVRs. I think its reasonable to raise our expectations, especially when these should be technically solved problems already (as evidenced elsewhere in the industry).

Yes, you can pick one, such as the NC502MP (I have one, 2 ch version), that clearly outclass the A1H's power amps, that's why I picked the NC252MP that is a little more comparable. I agree it is reasonable to raise our expectations, but you were reading my previous posts, I was referring to other's comments based on something like for $6,000 AVR....., so my counter points are very much focused on those whose expectations may not be as reasonable as yours.

 

[Golfx]

I have been reading the negative comments as well as Peng’s excellent counter comments.

It struck me as odd that anyone isn’t considering the staggering complexity of assembling all of these different parts from different countries into this feature packed AVR and then dealing with keeping bugs at a minimum. No one does this better than Denon. Separates bring other issues to the audible result which may be worse, as good but rarely better than this product.