Denon AVR-A1H High-end AVR Review

[Fidji]

Voted “fine” because although the level of performance is far below SOTA, it manages decent performance for FIFTEEN channels of high power amplification. That’s impressive. Plus, although expensive, it actually represents a pretty good value. Try to buy a pre/pro that can handle 15 channels of processing and three separate five channel amps for $6400. I doubt you could do that.

Actually you can get for 4.800 eur here in Europe. So not THAT expensive, down from 7k dreamprice at introduction.

You see all of D&M stuff heavily discounted everywhere, even those brand new Marantz gimmicks - and once you ask in the store you can shave another couple of hundreds.

 

[welwynnick]

I think I would prefer this combination to the Denon.

IOTAVX AVX17 + 2 x AVXP1 + 14 x AperionAudio XLR Audio Kabel Mono 1m, 4.143,30 €

Set bestehend aus IOTAVX AVX17, 2 x IOTAVX AVXP1, 14 x AperionAudio XLR Audio Kabel Mono 1m

www.hifipilot.de

I bet you wouldn't:

THD (THD+N): =0.06% (Nominal Value: A-Weighting)

That's 64dB SINAD, presumably at 1kHz, and at whatever power is best, because they don't specify.
All electronics aren't transparent - that's definitely audible distortion.

Have you even read the manual? It only has 11 pages. They're just not serious. The Denon A1H manual has 353 pages.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

I bet you wouldn't:

That's 64dB SINAD, presumably at 1kHz, and at whatever power is best, because they don't specify.
All electronics aren't transparent - that's definitely audible distortion.

Is it?

 

[welwynnick]

Is it?

Definitely.

 

[EWL5]

I bet you wouldn't:

That's 64dB SINAD, presumably at 1kHz, and at whatever power is best, because they don't specify.
All electronics aren't transparent - that's definitely audible distortion.

I disagree this is audible. Probably more like 40dB or 1% THD.

From the Denon site for the A1H:
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive)

AVR-A1H - 15.4 Ch. 150W 8K AV Receiver with HEOS® Built-in | Denon - US

15.4 Ch. 150W 8K AV Receiver with HEOS® Built-in

www.denon.com

Why would they quote a number at 0.05% THD (which is 66dB) that would be so close to the 0.06% THD threshold you think is audible?!!!

 

[welwynnick]

I disagree this is audible. Probably more like 40dB or 1% THD.

I've owned a few of these, and this sort of thing is blatantly audible:

Let's not race to the bottom please.
Just because somebody published a scientific-looking report saying that subjects couldn't hear 1% THD doesn't prove it's inaudible.
I think this is one of ASR's big mistakes.
The other one is to depend on sky-high test results at 1kHz, instead of looking at performance across across the whole audio envelope.
Reputable manufacturers - almost ALL the big names - have cottoned on to this, and usually quote THDN across 20Hz-20kHz.
In every case those numbers aren't great, but they do correspond to the things that we CAN hear.

 

[Acerun]

Thank you, Amir, I've been looking forwards to this test for a long time.
In particular, thanks for the comprehensive test while you're trying to burn down the backlog.
A few things stand out:

• Your results are similar to Denon's own results, which seem to be honest and reliable.
• The A1H is slightly better at everything than the preceding X8500H.
• Notwithstanding the power amps, the A1H would make a competitive AVP.
• The power amps, though better than the X8500H, seem to be the weak link.

Here in the UK, EVERYONE who has compared Denon and Arcam receivers ALWAYS, without exception, prefers the Arcam, in spite of the dreadful ASR test results.
Does this mean they are all wrong? Does it mean the measurements are wrong? No - neither.
The measurements are right, but they've got to be the right measurements. Not just at 1V, 1W, 1%, 1dB, 1kΩ, 1kHz etc, but the whole audio envelope IMHO.
That's why I was so pleased to see the THDN vs power vs frequency, which adds a big piece to the jigsaw.
Here are the whole audio envelope charts for the X8500H, A1H, JBL SDR-35 (Arcam AVR-31 clone) and the Topping B100, just to be gratuitous:

View attachment 426905View attachment 426906View attachment 426907View attachment 426912

I used to think it was mainly class D amplifiers that suffered from high frequency non-linearity, when compared with linear amps. But no, many linear amps are also poor.
Though the A1H is better than those before, all Denon AVR amps are weak in this respect (look them up), and worse than good linear amps like the JBL / Arcam.
This was a very illuminating detailed review.

If you want to use outboard amps, the X8500H is superior, with almost no degradation up to 2 volts.

 

[peng]

I think I would prefer this combination to the Denon.

IOTAVX AVX17 + 2 x AVXP1 + 14 x AperionAudio XLR Audio Kabel Mono 1m, 4.143,30 €

Set bestehend aus IOTAVX AVX17, 2 x IOTAVX AVXP1, 14 x AperionAudio XLR Audio Kabel Mono 1m

www.hifipilot.de

View attachment 427037

View attachment 427038

IOTAVX AVX17 Processor - HifiPilot, 1.799,00 €

The 17 channel preamplifier AVX17 with perfect 3D sound including Dolby Atmos & trade; & DTS: X as well as high-end DAC. Thanks to PEQ, the sound can be per

iotavx.com

IOTAVX AVXP1 7 Kanal Endstufe - HifiPilot, 1.379,00 €

Die gewaltige AVXP1 7 Kanal-Endstufe ist in Sachen Preis-Leistung wohl unübertroffen und liefert mit ihrem 1300W Netzteil zuverlässig Leistung für höchste D

iotavx.com

Cheaper, but won't perform as good on the bench, likely not even close. Even the x6800h and c30 would measure better. And then on the feature side, does it come with room correction？ If you must have avp+amp then surely that is an option.

 

[welwynnick]

If you are happy putting up with a low performing AVR then get something else that you can easily lift. The A1H won't sound better and other options won't empty your wallet. At some point, expensive low performing AVRs will simply disappear. 75lb units will be the first to go.

I love my hifi dreadnaughts.

My Denon AVP-A1HD weighs 60lb.
My Sony DA9100ES weighs 80lb.
My Cinenova Grande weighs 110lb.

But I also love my flyweight Topping DAC, preamp and power amp. Progress never stops.

 

[mtbdudex]

Interesting comments here ..
I had my Denon 8500H Feb-2-2018, in my basement HT at 7.2.6 / 9.2.4. Got my A1H November 2024, now 9.3.6.

Have you tried the Denon remote app?
It’s so nice and easy to see / swap settings.
I have 3 Dirac filters loaded in slot 2, easy peasy to switch near instant based on who’s seating where in our 2 row 4 seats each.

FWIW - For years I've asked for a much better front display, using dot matrix is just restricting these days.
A combo of hard buttons + touch sections on screen would take all AVR's into the 2020's, not stuck in the 2000's.
Got push back from lots of people.
But that's a discussion for a separate thread I sup[pose.

Yea it was kinda a bear to get it up there ..
1-2-3 .
I’m actually geeking on a Saturday comparing Dirac various measurement patterns in REW, hence the HDMI cables

 

[welwynnick]

So the last two ASR reviews are for a $6500 AVR with a SINAD of 98 and an $89 DAC with a SINAD of 118. And the AVR outperforms the vast majority of AVRs.
Something is wrong here.
I understand that there are constraints and compromises in AVR architecture that make equaling the performance of a dirt-cheap standalone DAC difficult.
That suggests that a fundamental re-think of that architecture is in order. I'm not an engineer, and I don't know what the better way would be. But I have to believe that such a way exists.

I'm thinking along the same lines. I think the key element is to separate D to A conversion from audio and video DSP, and from the power amps.
One option is to get a JBL SDP-55 with Dante output and connect it to a Dante-enabled multi-channel audio interface like the RME M-1620 Pro D or Antelope Galaxy 32.
They are recording-studio quality, and have relatively high level analogue outputs that can drive some interesting Hypex and Purifi power amps without buffers.
There are lots of other interesting options.

 

[Adis]

Tonewinner 61dB Denon 95dB . That's not close.
Normal working status are Tonewinner's words, and presumably means within normal working envelope and not overloaded in any way.
The 30dB figure you quoted was only reached when the amplifier was pushed beyond the clipping point, which will be the same for any amplifier.

I really don't understand what exactly you're getting at.
There's also measured SINAD of about 68dB at 50mW aswell as at 250W (Denon). I do not dispute that at a certain power Denon's max SINAD becomes 95 dB, and at what power Tonewinner's SINAD is 61 dB, we simply do not know.
There's also this:

Tonewinner AD-5100PA+ 100WX5 Channel Power Toroidal Amplifier -- No Way!!!

ToneWinner AD-5100PA+ 5 Ch Power Amplifier With Toroidal Transformer. -------->>> For Only $599 + Free Shipping Experience the pinnacle of audio performance with the Tonewinner AD-5100PA+ 5-Channel Amplifier, a masterpiece that takes your sound experience to new dimensions. Crafted to...

summithifiusa.com

• > 118 dB; ref FTC rated power; unbalanced input (A-weighted).
• > 98 dB; ref 1 watt; unbalanced input (A-weighted). Class AB: 96dB

That's SNR at full power and at 1W. Varies with power, so does SINAD...

 

[Adis]

I think I would prefer this combination to the Denon.

IOTAVX AVX17 + 2 x AVXP1 + 14 x AperionAudio XLR Audio Kabel Mono 1m, 4.143,30 €

Set bestehend aus IOTAVX AVX17, 2 x IOTAVX AVXP1, 14 x AperionAudio XLR Audio Kabel Mono 1m

www.hifipilot.de

View attachment 427037

View attachment 427038

IOTAVX AVX17 Processor - HifiPilot, 1.799,00 €

The 17 channel preamplifier AVX17 with perfect 3D sound including Dolby Atmos & trade; & DTS: X as well as high-end DAC. Thanks to PEQ, the sound can be per

iotavx.com

IOTAVX AVXP1 7 Kanal Endstufe - HifiPilot, 1.379,00 €

Die gewaltige AVXP1 7 Kanal-Endstufe ist in Sachen Preis-Leistung wohl unübertroffen und liefert mit ihrem 1300W Netzteil zuverlässig Leistung für höchste D

iotavx.com

Me too.

 

[peng]

@peng - as far as I'm concerned the Denon AVR A1H is a failed design on several levels.

1. Even in pre-amp mode it adds unneeded THD+N above 1kHz and by the time you reach 8kHz it's already altered the signal adding 12dB of THD+N. On a normal DAC review this would receive a poor rating. Not only poor THD+N but crosstalk is awful as well. Now you add the amps to the mix and they are not horrible but offer significantly worse measurements than Purifi amps.



If you are happy putting up with a low performing AVR then get something else that you can easily lift. The A1H won't sound better and other options won't empty your wallet. At some point, expensive low performing AVRs will simply disappear. 75lb units will be the first to go.

Of course you are right about the difference at 20 kHz, but would you change your mind if you consider the more expensive Marantz AV10 and the Anthem AVM90 don't really do better in that same test?

If you look/compare carefully, the Marantz AV10 was a touch, just a touch better, whereas the AVM90 actually looked a little worse than the Denon A1H.

Also keep in mind that as mentioned many times before, at 20 kHz (test signal), the first, that is the 2nd harmonic is already 40 kHz, that's in the ultrasonic range. Even the resulting IMD will be in the very high frequency range at at very low magnitude. I really don't think the A1H "failed" on this one. Or if that justifies the fail grade, then Marantz and Anthem failed too, clearly their owners wouldn't agree to that lol..

As to your other points (2 and 3), they seem somewhat subjective so I won't debate that at all, actually agreed to some extent. Finally, on "sounding better", I am not a believer, as I firmly believe once we get pass those Denon 3000 and corresponding Marantz AVRs, sound quality will largely depend on recording and mastering quality, not the AVRs, AVPs and power amps as long as the amps are operating at well below (say 6-10 dB below) their limits.

 

[welwynnick]

I think it's the rising high frequency distortion of the power amps that are more the problem.
DL ART aside, the A1H is pretty much as good as any AVP at any price.
I would just use a good external power amp for the LCR speakers.

 

[mtbdudex]

I think it's the rising high frequency distortion of the power amps that are more the problem.
DL ART aside, the A1H is pretty much as good as any AVP at any price.
I would just use a good external power amp for the LCR speakers.

View attachment 427062

What's "good enough" for HT usage?
I got a Emotiva XPA-3 back in the day for my 4520CI so I could have front heights / wides in 2012 as 11.1, probably very few did that way back before Atmos.
Been using that ever since with my 8500H and now my A1H as LCR amp.

 

[welwynnick]

What's "good enough" for HT usage?
I got a Emotiva XPA-3 back in the day for my 4520CI so I could have front heights / wides in 2012 as 11.1, probably very few did that way back before Atmos.
Been using that ever since with my 8500H and now my A1H as LCR amp.

Is that a Gen 1, 2 or 3?
I used to have a XPA-5 Gen 1 and thought it was great - good enough to keep. I don't think the Gen 3 models are as good.

EDIT: I think Gen 2 models were launched in 2013

 

[peng]

Tonewinner 61dB Denon 95dB . That's not close.
Normal working status are Tonewinner's words, and presumably means within normal working envelope and not overloaded in any way.
The 30dB figure you quoted was only reached when the amplifier was pushed beyond the clipping point, which will be the same for any amplifier.

Not sure where you got that 61 dB from. Regardless, we shouldn't compare THD+N at just one frequency point, but if only one point is available, may be stick with 1 kHz only because that seems to be the norm for many bench tests so it would be easier to compare.

 

[MoreWatts]

I do not see how one can do 15.4 cheaper. Denon has the only 15.4 AVR listed on Crutchfield.

Crutchfield lists 2 AVPs with 15.4: Anthem AVM90 for $7500 and Marantz AV10 for $7000.

How is it possible to get 15.4 with amplification for less than the price of this Denon? With necessary codecs included or available (Dolby, Dirac, etc.)?

People who have harped on the cost have been asked repeatedly to list components that achieve a 15.4 processor/power combination at a lower price, with necessary codecs.

Impossible, right?

 

[welwynnick]

Not sure where you got that 61 dB from. Regardless, we shouldn't compare THD+N at just one frequency point, but if only one point is available, may be stick with 1 kHz only because that seems to be the norm for many bench tests so it would be easier to compare.

Tonewinner specified parameters:

THD: ≤0.09% (1kHz, normal working status)

SINAD = 20 log 0.0009 = 61dB.
I completely agree about not using a single frequency, and certainly not the best case, which only makes everything seem perfectly transparent, which is rarely the case.
I think we should be looking for best case figures across the whole of the audio power / frequency / load envelope, because that's actually what we hear.
I've been talking to myself about it over here:

https://www.avforums.com/threads/subjective-vs-objective.2521033/