• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Big news coming from Sound United in 2023!

-Matt-

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 21, 2021
Messages
679
Likes
569
FedEx finally delivered my new 3800H, so I immediately unpacked it, installed it and performed the initial setup. Here are my first impressions, after just a few hours of playing with it:
- It is lighter and not as deep as the Yamaha RX-A6A (which I evaluated back in the spring), so easier to set up and make connections at the back.
- I thought that unlike the A6A plastic front panel, the 3800H's one will be made of aluminum, but that does not appear to be the case. Also, I expected a tilting lower front plate to hide additional controls, but there is none. However, unlike in the A6A there is no plastic panel at the top (prone to scratching, even at the factory), which is a good thing.
- The display is an old style fluorescent instead of LED or LCD, so I am not sure about its durability.
- I followed the setup procedure to the letter. One thing that really surprised me was that it required the user to connect speakers to the AVR when powered on (!).
- The Audyssey MultEQ XT32 requires a min. of 3 measurements in different listening positions, which does not make much sense (an HT with just one chair instead of a wider sofa should also be supported with just 1 measurement). The cardboard mic stand does the job, but it is somewhat flimsy and susceptible to be toppled. (I do appreciate the "greenness" of it, though.)
- Audyssey-determined crossover frequencies are too high. My center channel and surround speakers are THX certified, so they all perform adequately down to exactly 80 Hz. But Audyssey set the center crossover at 120 Hz and, strangely, the surround (speakers much smaller than the 3-way center one) at a lower 110 Hz.
- I do not have a subwoofer in my setup because my L/R front speakers easily reproduce low frequencies down to 24 Hz. So far, I have not been able to find an explicit setting (which exists on the A6A) to direct the LFE channel to those speakers, although Audyssey correctly determined them to be "large."
- The corrections Audyssey set for the L/R front speaker are rather unacceptable (bass is largely gone), so I had to immediately switch to "front L/R bypass mode." However, the setup screen where this can be performed is only accessible when the input is a BD player. When the input is the TV connected via HDMI/eARC (on which the apps to stream Netflix, HBO and Amazon Video run), it is not possible to enter the setup mode on the TV screen. The only option available is to select a "Home Theater" (AVR) source on the TV, which then only shows Audio Inputs (which can be selected), but not any settings. So while streaming Dolby Surround movies from those TV apps, I was only able to access settings on the AVR's display. I was able to set Audyssey to "front L/R bypass mode" for the TV source as well, but I am not sure if I messed up some other settings, since there this one-line navigation is very limiting. (As I recall, there was no such limitation on the A6A, which made it possible to use a full-screen setup even if the source was the TV.)
- The bass leaves a lot to be desired. When listening to CD music from the BD play, it is barely OK. But in action movies, it is quite lacking (e.g. I tried the last episode of The Expanse on Netflix, which has quite a few chest-pounding space explosions; they were kind of there but not really). My L/R front speakers have a sensitivity of 90 dB, nominal impedance of 8 Ohms and lowest impedance of 5 Ohms, so they do not present an overly difficult load on the amps. Even my 23-yo Yamaha receiver appears to have more low-frequency current oomph than this 3800H. Also, at low volumes the bass is quite weak; the volume needs to be cranked up for it to appear, which is a no-go for my nighttime listening (this was also noted in Robinson's review of the 3700H, not that I watch his videos frequently).
- The 3800H temp seems OK in stereo listening, but once I played multi-channel movies (at low to moderate volume), it got quite hot. It has got a lot of vents on the sides of the enclosure, not just at the top, most likely for that very reason. This model has a clear secondary function as a space heater, which would certainly come handy in colder months, but in the warmer season it is an additional burden on the A/C. Excessive heat also reduces reliability.
- So the lows are lacking, what about the highs? To my ears, they are OK but a bit "unclear." I plan to try some full-range reference recordings from Amazon Music HD and report more on that.
Edit:
- The ECO mode defaults to Auto, which causes a switch (with audible relay clicking) of the power amps to higher voltage rails once the volume is increased to roughly 55 dB (on the default scale of 0-98 dB). I observed no difference in bass when ECO is set to Off (which, presumably, causes the higher voltage rails to be used all the time). There is a slider graph which shows relative power consumption, which will come handy to estimate the max. power consumption once I get the power meter.

Overall, I have to say I am not initially impressed. This is my first hands-on encounter with a D/M product, so I may likely not know all the setup tricks, but still... Any tips on how to overcome the above problems are welcome.

By the way, this is the first subjective "review" I have seen for the new Denon 800 series.

Hopefully it isn't the intention of the poster to damn the entire series as being "lacking in bass" compared to a Yamaha, when there is no subwoofer and almost certainly sub-optimal configuration.
 
Last edited:

delta76

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Messages
1,646
Likes
2,589
By the way, this is the first subjective "review" I have seen for the new Denon 800 series.

Hopefully it isn't the intention of the poster to damn the entire series as being "lacking in bass" compared to a Yamaha, when there is no subwoofer and almost certainly sub-optimal configuration.
I have no experience with both but the consensus is MultEQ XT32 >> YPAO, and most people would prefer Dirac to both.
It seems the poster was familiar with YPAO and unhappy with learning curve of Audyssey, especially out of the box.
 

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,403
Likes
18,363
Location
Netherlands
I have no experience with both but the consensus is MultEQ XT32 >> YPAO, and most people would prefer Dirac to both.
It seems the poster was familiar with YPAO and unhappy with learning curve of Audyssey, especially out of the box.
What version of YPAO though? The YPAO R.S.C should be miles better and should do compared to what Dirac does, or even better. It even computes the angles and heights of the speaker positions. Sadly, little real information on what the actual results are te be found.
 

delta76

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Messages
1,646
Likes
2,589
What version of YPAO though? The YPAO R.S.C should be miles better and should do compared to what Dirac does, or even better. It even computes the angles and heights of the speaker positions. Sadly, little real information on what the actual results are te be found.
I have no idea, that was from a few polls I have seen. I'm still using a very old version of Audyssey- playing the waiting game, would be interested to try YPAO R.S.C if it is as good as you said :)
 

KMO

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Aug 9, 2021
Messages
629
Likes
903
If you select subwoofer as none can you still select LFE+main or do those subwoofer options go away?

My understanding was that this option was for when you do have a subwoofer only, and it means that any LFE channel information and any bass managed signal below the crossover for small speakers would be duplicated on the mains and the subwoofer.
That was also my understanding.

I've just double-checked on my old Denon AVR-4308 using REW test signals, to make sure I'm not just another person talking bollocks on the Internet.

And I can confirm:

* Yes, the "Subwoofer" option vanishes if you have no subwoofer, so you can't set "LFE+Main".
* With no subwoofer, L+R are forced to large.
* The LFE is sent to L+R.
* Bass from other Small channels is sent to L+R.

(And in the service manuals for it you can see there's a radical gain structure rework to allow for all these extra high-level signals going to L+R - there's a clear distinction between "subwoofer no" and "subwoofer yes" modes for L+R, including an extra 6dB gain circuit switched in after the DAC).
 
Last edited:

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
3,921
Likes
6,054
What version of YPAO though? The YPAO R.S.C should be miles better and should do compared to what Dirac does, or even better. It even computes the angles and heights of the speaker positions. Sadly, little real information on what the actual results are te be found.
 

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,403
Likes
18,363
Location
Netherlands
I'm still using a very old version of Audyssey
I always wonder if a 2016 version of MultEQ XT32 is the same as the 2022 version. Obviously, you now have the possibility to set the target curve, but otherwise? What changed?
 

truwarrior22

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2020
Messages
55
Likes
15
FedEx finally delivered my new 3800H, so I immediately unpacked it, installed it and performed the initial setup. Here are my first impressions, after just a few hours of playing with it:
- It is lighter and not as deep as the Yamaha RX-A6A (which I evaluated back in the spring), so easier to set up and make connections at the back.
- I thought that unlike the A6A plastic front panel, the 3800H's one will be made of aluminum, but that does not appear to be the case. Also, I expected a tilting lower front plate to hide additional controls, but there is none. However, unlike in the A6A there is no plastic panel at the top (prone to scratching, even at the factory), which is a good thing.
- The display is an old style fluorescent instead of LED or LCD, so I am not sure about its durability.
- I followed the setup procedure to the letter. One thing that really surprised me was that it required the user to connect speakers to the AVR when powered on (!).
- The Audyssey MultEQ XT32 requires a min. of 3 measurements in different listening positions, which does not make much sense (an HT with just one chair instead of a wider sofa should also be supported with just 1 measurement). The cardboard mic stand does the job, but it is somewhat flimsy and susceptible to be toppled. (I do appreciate the "greenness" of it, though.)
- Audyssey-determined crossover frequencies are too high. My center channel and surround speakers are THX certified, so they all perform adequately down to exactly 80 Hz. But Audyssey set the center crossover at 120 Hz and, strangely, the surround (speakers much smaller than the 3-way center one) at a lower 110 Hz.
- I do not have a subwoofer in my setup because my L/R front speakers easily reproduce low frequencies down to 24 Hz. So far, I have not been able to find an explicit setting (which exists on the A6A) to direct the LFE channel to those speakers, although Audyssey correctly determined them to be "large."
- The corrections Audyssey set for the L/R front speaker are rather unacceptable (bass is largely gone), so I had to immediately switch to "front L/R bypass mode." However, the setup screen where this can be performed is only accessible when the input is a BD player. When the input is the TV connected via HDMI/eARC (on which the apps to stream Netflix, HBO and Amazon Video run), it is not possible to enter the setup mode on the TV screen. The only option available is to select a "Home Theater" (AVR) source on the TV, which then only shows Audio Inputs (which can be selected), but not any settings. So while streaming Dolby Surround movies from those TV apps, I was only able to access settings on the AVR's display. I was able to set Audyssey to "front L/R bypass mode" for the TV source as well, but I am not sure if I messed up some other settings, since there this one-line navigation is very limiting. (As I recall, there was no such limitation on the A6A, which made it possible to use a full-screen setup even if the source was the TV.)
- The bass leaves a lot to be desired. When listening to CD music from the BD play, it is barely OK. But in action movies, it is quite lacking (e.g. I tried the last episode of The Expanse on Netflix, which has quite a few chest-pounding space explosions; they were kind of there but not really). My L/R front speakers have a sensitivity of 90 dB, nominal impedance of 8 Ohms and lowest impedance of 5 Ohms, so they do not present an overly difficult load on the amps. Even my 23-yo Yamaha receiver appears to have more low-frequency current oomph than this 3800H. Also, at low volumes the bass is quite weak; the volume needs to be cranked up for it to appear, which is a no-go for my nighttime listening (this was also noted in Robinson's review of the 3700H, not that I watch his videos frequently).
- The 3800H temp seems OK in stereo listening, but once I played multi-channel movies (at low to moderate volume), it got quite hot. It has got a lot of vents on the sides of the enclosure, not just at the top, most likely for that very reason. This model has a clear secondary function as a space heater, which would certainly come handy in colder months, but in the warmer season it is an additional burden on the A/C. Excessive heat also reduces reliability.
- So the lows are lacking, what about the highs? To my ears, they are OK but a bit "unclear." I plan to try some full-range reference recordings from Amazon Music HD and report more on that.
Edit:
- The ECO mode defaults to Auto, which causes a switch (with audible relay clicking) of the power amps to higher voltage rails once the volume is increased to roughly 55 dB (on the default scale of 0-98 dB). I observed no difference in bass when ECO is set to Off (which, presumably, causes the higher voltage rails to be used all the time). There is a slider graph which shows relative power consumption, which will come handy to estimate the max. power consumption once I get the power meter.

Overall, I have to say I am not initially impressed. This is my first hands-on encounter with a D/M product, so I may likely not know all the setup tricks, but still... Any tips on how to overcome the above problems are welcome.
That’s rough. I think these Denon and Marantz AVRs are very flat sounding and designed to be used with dynamic EQ, dynamic volume, etc. Yamaha is more exciting out of the box, but after enabling dynamic EQ, it really made movies like the race scene in “Ready Player One” slam very well. I do have a HGS18 subwoofer though. I have a SR8015 and MultiEQ-X with the calibrated Audyssey mic as well. I need to explore more with a custom curve, but keeping everything default and just enabling dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume for movies has worked well for me. Furthermore, I usually disable Dynamic Volume if listen to music only.

Actually, recently and since the sound can be so flat, I’ve started considering B&W speakers lol
 
Last edited:

hiphop_odc

Member
Joined
May 27, 2022
Messages
31
Likes
40
I think we might be lucky
Today at 8:20 PM
I was just able to confirm that all of Denon's and Marantz's new receivers and the pre-amp processor will have the Dirac Live Bass Control updated via firmware, but after we see the 1st update to enable Direc Live.

Today at 6:06 AM
I was told by a Dirac Live insider that any Denon/Marantz AVR/AVP which will support 4 independent subwoofer outputs, will be eligible for a paid DLBC upgrade which will be available mid-2023. The top-end models, such as the A1H will also receive Dirac's upcoming spatial room correction (SRC), which is the full range version of BLDC. So BLDC is coming even for the X3800H !

Also, if one chooses not to upgrade to BLDC, then both Audyssey's Sub EQ and Dynamic EQ/Vol will work side-by-side with the conventional Dirac live filters (they're not compatible with BLDC, so to use Dynamic EQ/vol, DLBC must be bypassed and replaced by Audyssey's Sub EQ)

Found in this thread, in the comments.

 

delta76

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Messages
1,646
Likes
2,589
yay. so feature-wise, x3800h looks like a good deal.
it is just a bit sad that with current economic climate and exchange rate to USD, it will be either costly, or long waiting time for non US users
 

Atanasi

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
716
Likes
796
yay. so feature-wise, x3800h looks like a good deal.
it is just a bit sad that with current economic climate and exchange rate to USD, it will be either costly, or long waiting time for non US users
Finnish dealers list it for 1800 EUR.
 

delta76

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Messages
1,646
Likes
2,589
Finnish dealers list it for 1800 EUR.
German (19% VAT) retailers have it for 1699. France is also 1699. I could probably buy one at 1590 now, just still can't justify spending that money on a nice to have but not critical piece of equipment :(
 

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
2,926
Likes
7,643
Location
Canada
Last edited:

lc6

Active Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2022
Messages
183
Likes
277
By the way, this is the first subjective "review" I have seen for the new Denon 800 series.

Hopefully it isn't the intention of the poster to damn the entire series as being "lacking in bass" compared to a Yamaha, when there is no subwoofer and almost certainly sub-optimal configuration.

I am just sharing my first impressions of the 3800H, not of the entire Denon '800 line since I have not tried any other models in it. And, like it or not, I am entitled to offer my opinion, just like you or anyone else is; if you do not accept that, you always have an option of not reading my posts. I would like to see this AVR objectively and thoroughly measured by ASR and other sites soon.

Any AVR should be able to adequately drive competent main L/Rs in an unprocessed mode when playing stereo music, without a requirement to add a subwoofer. So far in my experience, this one does not. Last night, I streamed some reference tracks, including in the "pure direct" mode, all at relatively low volumes (not to cause a disturbance), so the amps were far from being taxed. I know these tracks well because I have listened to them many times not only in the exact same speaker setup driven by my old AVR (in the "effect off" and "direct" modes) but also on studio monitor headphones (which produce a similar sound). In this comparison, the bass produced by the 3800H is relatively and (to me) unacceptably weak. In fact, it reminds me of the sound produced with the same main speakers by an old Sony STRD-series AVR I used to own many years ago, before I upgraded to the current one.
I am also somewhat unimpressed by the 3800H's reproduction of the mids and highs, as well as the sound stage. And no, I do not believe in correcting the corrections of Audyssey, or correcting the current-supply deficiency of power amps with boosting tricks. In this day and age, there is no reason for the power amp section of the AVR not to perform well at a basic level. Any additional processing, such as to enhance dynamics or improve dialog clarity, has to build on that base.

That said, I am keeping an open mind and plan to experiment with various settings as time permits. Many thanks to all who offered explanations and constructive suggestions of what/how to tweak.
 
Last edited:

-Matt-

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 21, 2021
Messages
679
Likes
569
You seem to misunderstand the suggestion of Dynamic EQ and insist on using Pure Direct or L/R Bypass etc (all of which damage the bass response).

By using these modes you are preventing Audyssey from operating correctly. Dynamic EQ is not an artificial "boosting trick", rather it aims to compensate for different master volume settings in order to give a frequency response that appears flat to our ears (or follows the curve defined in the app). Have you tried it yet? I find that at normal listening levels it gives a lot more punchy bass.

It is pretty unlikely that the amp is struggling to drive the speakers. Far more likely to just be the case that you need to configure the system correctly and getting your preferred house curve tuned in.
 
Last edited:

peng

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
5,732
Likes
5,303
I am just sharing my first impressions of the 3800H, not of the entire Denon '800 line since I have not tried any other models in it. And, like it or not, I am entitled to offer my opinion, just like you or anyone else is; if you do not accept that, you always have an option of not reading my posts. I would like to see this AVR objectively and thoroughly measured by ASR and other sites soon.

Any AVR should be able to adequately drive competent main L/Rs in an unprocessed mode when playing stereo music, without a requirement to add a subwoofer. So far in my experience, this one does not. Last night, I streamed some reference tracks, including in the "pure direct" mode, all at relatively low volumes (not to cause a disturbance), so the amps were far from being taxed. I know these tracks well because I have listened to them many times not only in the exact same speaker setup driven by my old AVR (in the "effect off" and "direct" modes) but also on studio monitor headphones (which produce a similar sound). In this comparison, the bass produced by the 3800H is relatively and (to me) unacceptably weak. In fact, it reminds me of the sound produced with the same main speakers by an old Sony STRD-series AVR I used to own many years ago, before I upgraded to the current one.
I am also somewhat unimpressed by the 3800H's reproduction of the mids and highs, as well as the sound stage. And no, I do not believe in correcting the corrections of Audyssey, or correcting the current-supply deficiency of power amps with boosting tricks. In this day and age, there is no reason for the power amp section of the AVR not to perform well at a basic level. Any additional processing, such as to enhance dynamics or improve dialog clarity, has to build on that base.

That said, I am keeping an open mind and plan to experiment with various settings as time permits. Many thanks to all who offered explanations and constructive suggestions of what/how to tweak.

I would suggest you follow the recommendations in post#649, you may like the results. Also, at lower volume such as 55, you really should turn deq on unless you don't mind the weaker bass.
 

lc6

Active Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2022
Messages
183
Likes
277
You seem to misunderstand the suggestion of Dynamic EQ and insist on using Pure Direct or L/R Bypass etc (all of which damage the bass response).

By using these modes you are preventing Audyssey from operating correctly. Dynamic EQ is not an artificial "boosting trick", rather it aims to compensate for different master volume settings in order to give a frequency response that appears flat to our ears (or follows the curve defined in the app). Have you tried it yet? I find that at normal listening levels it gives a lot more punchy bass.

I can give it a try, but my understanding is that for the Dynamic EQ and other Bass processing to be accessible in the settings, Audyssey has to be enabled on the L/Rs, which means all its "measurement-based corrections" would be applied (that would only distort the factory-tuned flat FR of my mains, which I like very much). I guess I could attempt to then manually override Audyssey corrections, but that gets quite cumbersome.
For reference, as I recall on the A6A the bass was OK with the processing of L/Rs disabled, there was an independent setting to allow direction of all bass to the fronts, and there was no setting for a "loudness-like" correction that would enhance bass at low volumes (perhaps it was hardwired in the electronic volume control?).
Anyway, thank you again for the additional recommendations.
 

-Matt-

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 21, 2021
Messages
679
Likes
569
I can give it a try, but my understanding is that for the Dynamic EQ and other Bass processing to be accessible in the settings, Audyssey has to be enabled on the L/Rs, which means all its "measurement-based corrections" would be applied (that would only distort the factory-tuned flat FR of my mains, which I like very much).
I think this is a misapprehension.

"Factory-tuned flat" frequency response doesn't make much sense. The response changes depending on which room you put it in, where the speakers are positioned, etc. This is the point of the measurement based corrections - to get a flat in-room response. (Or to offset from that flat response based on a house curve).

Much better to allow Audyssey to do its thing, especially at low frequencies.

Having said that, many people prefer to disable Audyssey for higher frequencies (eg above 500Hz). This can be done in the app.

When you compare your memory of the Yamaha amp and this one, were the room, speaker positions and listening position the same?

By the way, your recollection about the visibility of the on screen display whilst using TV apps must be mistaken. It is a feature of the TV. If the TV is displaying its internal app as the source (eg Netflix) then it is impossible for the on screen display from the amp to also be shown. (Yes, it is quite annoying but definitely not different for Denon vs Yamaha).
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom