Big news coming from Sound United in 2023!

[GXAlan]

What version of YPAO though? The YPAO R.S.C should be miles better and should do compared to what Dirac does, or even better. It even computes the angles and heights of the speaker positions. Sadly, little real information on what the actual results are te be found.

 

[voodooless]

I'm still using a very old version of Audyssey

I always wonder if a 2016 version of MultEQ XT32 is the same as the 2022 version. Obviously, you now have the possibility to set the target curve, but otherwise? What changed?

 

[truwarrior22]

FedEx finally delivered my new 3800H, so I immediately unpacked it, installed it and performed the initial setup. Here are my first impressions, after just a few hours of playing with it:
- It is lighter and not as deep as the Yamaha RX-A6A (which I evaluated back in the spring), so easier to set up and make connections at the back.
- I thought that unlike the A6A plastic front panel, the 3800H's one will be made of aluminum, but that does not appear to be the case. Also, I expected a tilting lower front plate to hide additional controls, but there is none. However, unlike in the A6A there is no plastic panel at the top (prone to scratching, even at the factory), which is a good thing.
- The display is an old style fluorescent instead of LED or LCD, so I am not sure about its durability.
- I followed the setup procedure to the letter. One thing that really surprised me was that it required the user to connect speakers to the AVR when powered on (!).
- The Audyssey MultEQ XT32 requires a min. of 3 measurements in different listening positions, which does not make much sense (an HT with just one chair instead of a wider sofa should also be supported with just 1 measurement). The cardboard mic stand does the job, but it is somewhat flimsy and susceptible to be toppled. (I do appreciate the "greenness" of it, though.)
- Audyssey-determined crossover frequencies are too high. My center channel and surround speakers are THX certified, so they all perform adequately down to exactly 80 Hz. But Audyssey set the center crossover at 120 Hz and, strangely, the surround (speakers much smaller than the 3-way center one) at a lower 110 Hz.
- I do not have a subwoofer in my setup because my L/R front speakers easily reproduce low frequencies down to 24 Hz. So far, I have not been able to find an explicit setting (which exists on the A6A) to direct the LFE channel to those speakers, although Audyssey correctly determined them to be "large."
- The corrections Audyssey set for the L/R front speaker are rather unacceptable (bass is largely gone), so I had to immediately switch to "front L/R bypass mode." However, the setup screen where this can be performed is only accessible when the input is a BD player. When the input is the TV connected via HDMI/eARC (on which the apps to stream Netflix, HBO and Amazon Video run), it is not possible to enter the setup mode on the TV screen. The only option available is to select a "Home Theater" (AVR) source on the TV, which then only shows Audio Inputs (which can be selected), but not any settings. So while streaming Dolby Surround movies from those TV apps, I was only able to access settings on the AVR's display. I was able to set Audyssey to "front L/R bypass mode" for the TV source as well, but I am not sure if I messed up some other settings, since there this one-line navigation is very limiting. (As I recall, there was no such limitation on the A6A, which made it possible to use a full-screen setup even if the source was the TV.)
- The bass leaves a lot to be desired. When listening to CD music from the BD play, it is barely OK. But in action movies, it is quite lacking (e.g. I tried the last episode of The Expanse on Netflix, which has quite a few chest-pounding space explosions; they were kind of there but not really). My L/R front speakers have a sensitivity of 90 dB, nominal impedance of 8 Ohms and lowest impedance of 5 Ohms, so they do not present an overly difficult load on the amps. Even my 23-yo Yamaha receiver appears to have more low-frequency current oomph than this 3800H. Also, at low volumes the bass is quite weak; the volume needs to be cranked up for it to appear, which is a no-go for my nighttime listening (this was also noted in Robinson's review of the 3700H, not that I watch his videos frequently).
- The 3800H temp seems OK in stereo listening, but once I played multi-channel movies (at low to moderate volume), it got quite hot. It has got a lot of vents on the sides of the enclosure, not just at the top, most likely for that very reason. This model has a clear secondary function as a space heater, which would certainly come handy in colder months, but in the warmer season it is an additional burden on the A/C. Excessive heat also reduces reliability.
- So the lows are lacking, what about the highs? To my ears, they are OK but a bit "unclear." I plan to try some full-range reference recordings from Amazon Music HD and report more on that.
Edit:
- The ECO mode defaults to Auto, which causes a switch (with audible relay clicking) of the power amps to higher voltage rails once the volume is increased to roughly 55 dB (on the default scale of 0-98 dB). I observed no difference in bass when ECO is set to Off (which, presumably, causes the higher voltage rails to be used all the time). There is a slider graph which shows relative power consumption, which will come handy to estimate the max. power consumption once I get the power meter.

Overall, I have to say I am not initially impressed. This is my first hands-on encounter with a D/M product, so I may likely not know all the setup tricks, but still... Any tips on how to overcome the above problems are welcome.

That’s rough. I think these Denon and Marantz AVRs are very flat sounding and designed to be used with dynamic EQ, dynamic volume, etc. Yamaha is more exciting out of the box, but after enabling dynamic EQ, it really made movies like the race scene in “Ready Player One” slam very well. I do have a HGS18 subwoofer though. I have a SR8015 and MultiEQ-X with the calibrated Audyssey mic as well. I need to explore more with a custom curve, but keeping everything default and just enabling dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume for movies has worked well for me. Furthermore, I usually disable Dynamic Volume if listen to music only.

Actually, recently and since the sound can be so flat, I’ve started considering B&W speakers lol

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Just to be clear, you use LFE+Main?

Let me check over the weekend when I am back home.

 

[hiphop_odc]

I think we might be lucky
Today at 8:20 PM

• #8

I was just able to confirm that all of Denon's and Marantz's new receivers and the pre-amp processor will have the Dirac Live Bass Control updated via firmware, but after we see the 1st update to enable Direc Live.

Today at 6:06 AM

• #11

I was told by a Dirac Live insider that any Denon/Marantz AVR/AVP which will support 4 independent subwoofer outputs, will be eligible for a paid DLBC upgrade which will be available mid-2023. The top-end models, such as the A1H will also receive Dirac's upcoming spatial room correction (SRC), which is the full range version of BLDC. So BLDC is coming even for the X3800H !

Also, if one chooses not to upgrade to BLDC, then both Audyssey's Sub EQ and Dynamic EQ/Vol will work side-by-side with the conventional Dirac live filters (they're not compatible with BLDC, so to use Dynamic EQ/vol, DLBC must be bypassed and replaced by Audyssey's Sub EQ)

Found in this thread, in the comments.

Sound United Rocks the Industry: Announces Dirac Live Functionality on Select Denon and Marantz AVRs and Pre/Pros

(September 27, 2022) CEDIA week is always full of surprises, and this is a big one. Today, Dirac and Sound United announced a collaboration to make Dirac Live available in several new AV receivers and preamps from Denon and Marantz. Bringing Dirac functionality to these brands is a major blow...

www.avnirvana.com

 

[delta76]

yay. so feature-wise, x3800h looks like a good deal.
it is just a bit sad that with current economic climate and exchange rate to USD, it will be either costly, or long waiting time for non US users

 

[Atanasi]

yay. so feature-wise, x3800h looks like a good deal.
it is just a bit sad that with current economic climate and exchange rate to USD, it will be either costly, or long waiting time for non US users

Finnish dealers list it for 1800 EUR.

 

[delta76]

Finnish dealers list it for 1800 EUR.

German (19% VAT) retailers have it for 1699. France is also 1699. I could probably buy one at 1590 now, just still can't justify spending that money on a nice to have but not critical piece of equipment

 

[Hobolicious]

Finnish dealers list it for 1800 EUR.

1625 euro in Norway (25% VAT rate here) it seems.

 

[Sancus]

We have confirmation that DLBC will be available. Even if it costs $500, making the total $700, that means the X3800H gets you DLBC for up to 4 subs for $2400. That may seem expensive but it's actually an unprecedented bargain!

Perhaps even more interesting, allegedly the A1H will have access to Dirac's new spatial room correction. That would make it the first product to attain that capability.

I'm glad Sound United is paying attention, they've upended the competition with this move.

 

[lc6]

By the way, this is the first subjective "review" I have seen for the new Denon 800 series.

Hopefully it isn't the intention of the poster to damn the entire series as being "lacking in bass" compared to a Yamaha, when there is no subwoofer and almost certainly sub-optimal configuration.

I am just sharing my first impressions of the 3800H, not of the entire Denon '800 line since I have not tried any other models in it. And, like it or not, I am entitled to offer my opinion, just like you or anyone else is; if you do not accept that, you always have an option of not reading my posts. I would like to see this AVR objectively and thoroughly measured by ASR and other sites soon.

Any AVR should be able to adequately drive competent main L/Rs in an unprocessed mode when playing stereo music, without a requirement to add a subwoofer. So far in my experience, this one does not. Last night, I streamed some reference tracks, including in the "pure direct" mode, all at relatively low volumes (not to cause a disturbance), so the amps were far from being taxed. I know these tracks well because I have listened to them many times not only in the exact same speaker setup driven by my old AVR (in the "effect off" and "direct" modes) but also on studio monitor headphones (which produce a similar sound). In this comparison, the bass produced by the 3800H is relatively and (to me) unacceptably weak. In fact, it reminds me of the sound produced with the same main speakers by an old Sony STRD-series AVR I used to own many years ago, before I upgraded to the current one.
I am also somewhat unimpressed by the 3800H's reproduction of the mids and highs, as well as the sound stage. And no, I do not believe in correcting the corrections of Audyssey, or correcting the current-supply deficiency of power amps with boosting tricks. In this day and age, there is no reason for the power amp section of the AVR not to perform well at a basic level. Any additional processing, such as to enhance dynamics or improve dialog clarity, has to build on that base.

That said, I am keeping an open mind and plan to experiment with various settings as time permits. Many thanks to all who offered explanations and constructive suggestions of what/how to tweak.

 

[-Matt-]

You seem to misunderstand the suggestion of Dynamic EQ and insist on using Pure Direct or L/R Bypass etc (all of which damage the bass response).

By using these modes you are preventing Audyssey from operating correctly. Dynamic EQ is not an artificial "boosting trick", rather it aims to compensate for different master volume settings in order to give a frequency response that appears flat to our ears (or follows the curve defined in the app). Have you tried it yet? I find that at normal listening levels it gives a lot more punchy bass.

It is pretty unlikely that the amp is struggling to drive the speakers. Far more likely to just be the case that you need to configure the system correctly and getting your preferred house curve tuned in.

 

[peng]

I am just sharing my first impressions of the 3800H, not of the entire Denon '800 line since I have not tried any other models in it. And, like it or not, I am entitled to offer my opinion, just like you or anyone else is; if you do not accept that, you always have an option of not reading my posts. I would like to see this AVR objectively and thoroughly measured by ASR and other sites soon.

Any AVR should be able to adequately drive competent main L/Rs in an unprocessed mode when playing stereo music, without a requirement to add a subwoofer. So far in my experience, this one does not. Last night, I streamed some reference tracks, including in the "pure direct" mode, all at relatively low volumes (not to cause a disturbance), so the amps were far from being taxed. I know these tracks well because I have listened to them many times not only in the exact same speaker setup driven by my old AVR (in the "effect off" and "direct" modes) but also on studio monitor headphones (which produce a similar sound). In this comparison, the bass produced by the 3800H is relatively and (to me) unacceptably weak. In fact, it reminds me of the sound produced with the same main speakers by an old Sony STRD-series AVR I used to own many years ago, before I upgraded to the current one.
I am also somewhat unimpressed by the 3800H's reproduction of the mids and highs, as well as the sound stage. And no, I do not believe in correcting the corrections of Audyssey, or correcting the current-supply deficiency of power amps with boosting tricks. In this day and age, there is no reason for the power amp section of the AVR not to perform well at a basic level. Any additional processing, such as to enhance dynamics or improve dialog clarity, has to build on that base.

That said, I am keeping an open mind and plan to experiment with various settings as time permits. Many thanks to all who offered explanations and constructive suggestions of what/how to tweak.

I would suggest you follow the recommendations in post#649, you may like the results. Also, at lower volume such as 55, you really should turn deq on unless you don't mind the weaker bass.

 

[lc6]

You seem to misunderstand the suggestion of Dynamic EQ and insist on using Pure Direct or L/R Bypass etc (all of which damage the bass response).

By using these modes you are preventing Audyssey from operating correctly. Dynamic EQ is not an artificial "boosting trick", rather it aims to compensate for different master volume settings in order to give a frequency response that appears flat to our ears (or follows the curve defined in the app). Have you tried it yet? I find that at normal listening levels it gives a lot more punchy bass.

I can give it a try, but my understanding is that for the Dynamic EQ and other Bass processing to be accessible in the settings, Audyssey has to be enabled on the L/Rs, which means all its "measurement-based corrections" would be applied (that would only distort the factory-tuned flat FR of my mains, which I like very much). I guess I could attempt to then manually override Audyssey corrections, but that gets quite cumbersome.
For reference, as I recall on the A6A the bass was OK with the processing of L/Rs disabled, there was an independent setting to allow direction of all bass to the fronts, and there was no setting for a "loudness-like" correction that would enhance bass at low volumes (perhaps it was hardwired in the electronic volume control?).
Anyway, thank you again for the additional recommendations.

 

[-Matt-]

I can give it a try, but my understanding is that for the Dynamic EQ and other Bass processing to be accessible in the settings, Audyssey has to be enabled on the L/Rs, which means all its "measurement-based corrections" would be applied (that would only distort the factory-tuned flat FR of my mains, which I like very much).

I think this is a misapprehension.

"Factory-tuned flat" frequency response doesn't make much sense. The response changes depending on which room you put it in, where the speakers are positioned, etc. This is the point of the measurement based corrections - to get a flat in-room response. (Or to offset from that flat response based on a house curve).

Much better to allow Audyssey to do its thing, especially at low frequencies.

Having said that, many people prefer to disable Audyssey for higher frequencies (eg above 500Hz). This can be done in the app.

When you compare your memory of the Yamaha amp and this one, were the room, speaker positions and listening position the same?

By the way, your recollection about the visibility of the on screen display whilst using TV apps must be mistaken. It is a feature of the TV. If the TV is displaying its internal app as the source (eg Netflix) then it is impossible for the on screen display from the amp to also be shown. (Yes, it is quite annoying but definitely not different for Denon vs Yamaha).

 

[-Matt-]

For reference, as I recall on the A6A the bass was OK with the processing of L/Rs disabled, there was an independent setting to allow direction of all bass to the fronts, and there was no setting for a "loudness-like" correction that would enhance bass at low volumes (perhaps it was hardwired in the electronic volume control?).

Yes, very likely the response that you thought was flat was actually with some "boosting tricks" already hardwired into the Yamaha. They do claim stuff like tuned by ear for more musicality (BS)!

It is only really fair to compare between the Yamaha and Denon AVRs if they have been tuned to the same target curves.

To question the power capability of an amp based on your preference for a steeper house curve (when tools are offered for you to adjust this) seems a bit unreasonable.

Comments on ease of use of the setup procedure are likely far more justified.

 

[lc6]

I think this is as misapprehension.

"Factory-tuned flat" frequency response doesn't make much sense. The response changes depending on which room you put it in, where the speakers are positioned, etc. This is the point of the measurement based corrections - to get a flat in-room response. (Or to offset from that flat response based on a house curve).

I respectfully disagree about some aspects of this; see my post in the other thread.

Much better to allow Audyssey to do its thing, especially at low frequencies.

Having said that, many people prefer to disable Audyssey for higher frequencies (eg above 500Hz). This can be done in the app.

My L/R sound is just fine without any corrections when powered by a different amp, so I see no reason to change the FR to some "house curve" or "flat curve" based on measurements made with an uncalibrated cheap mic on a flimsy cardboard stand (LOL).

When you compare your memory of the Yamaha amp and this one were the room, speaker positions and listening position the same?

Exactly the same setup, including room, speakers, cables and listening location. The only change is the AVR, located in exactly in the same spot.

By the way, your recollection about the visibility of the on screen display whilst using TV apps must be mistaken. It is a feature of the TV. If the TV is displaying its internal app as the source (eg Netflix) then it is impossible for the on screen display from the amp to also be shown. (Yes, it is quite annoying but definitely not different for Denon vs Yamaha).

I believe I figured it last night. The confusion stemmed from the fact that the HDMI eARC input to which the AVR is connected is labeled "BD", but there also is another virtual source on the TV menu labeled "Home Theater" which is the name I selected for the AVR based on its setup recommendation (that source only allows for the selection of AVR inputs). So the trick is to select the "BD" source on the TV and then use the AVR control to select an input other than BD and enter its AVR settings.

BTW, I noticed that when entering Settings, the sound played gets temporarily interrupted. I could understand if that was happening when a setting change was being applied but not when just popping up a screen. Not sure whether this AVR is equipped with a GPP cores to handle the UI, networking, etc., but it might use the ADI DSP (busy processing signals) for those functions as well.

Also, the Amazon Music HD app running on a Fire Stick HD directly connected to the AVR via HDMI claims that the device capability is 16 bits / 192 kHz, whereas from the French presentation posted on this thread, the TI DACs this AVR employs are 32-bit, so the capability presented to the Stick should be at least 24 bits / 192 kHz to fully enjoy hi-res material.

 

[lc6]

Yes, very likely the response that you thought was flat was actually with some "boosting tricks" already hardwired into the Yamaha. They do claim stuff like tuned by ear for more musicality (BS)!

It is only really fair to compare between the Yamaha and Denon AVRs if they have been tuned to the same target curves.

To question the power capability of an amp based on your preference for a steeper house curve (when tools are offered for you to adjust this) seems a bit unreasonable.

Comments on ease of use of the setup procedure are likely far more justified.

On the other hand, any kinds of "boosting tricks" would likely come up in FR measurements showing unevenness at low and full power and dynamic range. I do not recall seeing any such findings, but may have missed them.

 

[-Matt-]

My L/R sound is just fine without any corrections when powered by a different amp, so I see no reason to change the FR to some "house curve" or "flat curve" based on measurements made with an uncalibrated cheap mic on a flimsy cardboard stand (LOL).

My point was that the other amp was probably already applying a house curve without your knowledge. This was the response that you enjoyed.

Now you experience a flat response from your speakers and dislike it.

Not a failing of the new amp - it can easily be fixed - simply adjust the new amp to change its house curve to one that you like.


Pure direct, L/R bypass etc is mostly audiophile mythology. To get the best in-room response it is better to use the EQ effectively.

 

[peng]

I can give it a try, but my understanding is that for the Dynamic EQ and other Bass processing to be accessible in the settings, Audyssey has to be enabled on the L/Rs, which means all its "measurement-based corrections" would be applied (that would only distort the factory-tuned flat FR of my mains, which I like very much). I guess I could attempt to then manually override Audyssey corrections, but that gets quite cumbersome.
For reference, as I recall on the A6A the bass was OK with the processing of L/Rs disabled, there was an independent setting to allow direction of all bass to the fronts, and there was no setting for a "loudness-like" correction that would enhance bass at low volumes (perhaps it was hardwired in the electronic volume control?).
Anyway, thank you again for the additional recommendations.

Yamaha's DEQ equivalent seems to be YPAO volume:

YPAO™ Volume Ensures Quality Audio at All Volumes - Yamaha Music

Yamaha YPAO™ Volume allows you to hear balanced low, mid and high frequencies clearly, even at low volumes. This article explains how it works.

hub.yamaha.com