Karls_speaker_works
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Ugh, I'm a power engineer but I would prefer to click in and see posts about the new AVR units vs bickering about power consumption.
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0.75 pf is very a very reasonable assumption, though a little on the conservative side imo (a good thing for safety). I would avoid using SF on things related to electrical safety codes because SF will typically mean service factor, not safety factor.
If you are asking about safety factor consideration for an AVR load, I don't have an answer. You can understand why if you consider some examples:
A) Someone using an AVR to power 5 speakers with 92 dB/W/m sensitivity, sitting 3 meters and listening to 10 dB below reference:
Power required = about 3.5 W, assuming eff at such low output level = 15%, power consumption = 3.5/.12 = 23.3 W, current = 23.3/120/.75 = 0.324 A, or 5X.324 = 1.62 A
B) Someone using the same AVR to power 5 speakers with 89 dB/W/m, same seating distance, same listening spl:
Power required = 7 W, assuming the same efficiency, Power consumption = 7 W/0.15 = 46.67 W, current = 46.67/120/.75 = 0.519 A, or 5X.519 = 2.6 A
C) Somone using the same AVR for the same conditions but listens to reference level (this means 105 dB peak with just one speaker):
Power required = 175 W, Power consumption would then be about 175/120/0.8/0.8 = 2.28 A, or 5X2.28 = 11.4 A
So if you consider scenario C) above, for some who always listen at reference level, at 3 meters distance using 89 dB/W/m speakers in 5 channel stereo mode, current draw will still be below 12 A (80% of 15 A).
But it depends so much on the individual's speakers and listening habit so it doesn't seem practical to consider "safety factor". Besides, it is an audio device that is protected by not only the circuit breaker, but also the device's protective system that nowadays almost always offer protection against short circuit current, overcurrent, thermal overall current, dc offset, and potentially more. Also, unlike baseboard heaters, fan, pump motors, audio devices naturally don't get as much attention from the regulatory authorities, and are not even mentioned specifically in electrical code books.
Think about his, we even have a thread on ASR named "FTC may drop the amplifier rules", that tells you how keen the regulatory authorities are on audio devices. I guess to them they are low risk, never resulted in much major accidents (may be the odd small fires), injuries etc..
FTC may drop amplifier rules
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ftc-proposes-eliminating-its-amplifier-rule Seems strange and short sighted to drop the whole rule rather than modify it. Then again it appears there is pretty much zero enforcement. Still hard to see how this benefits the consumer. Heck they need a new rule...
I am having trouble following some of your calculations. In A) you assume an efficiency of 15%, but then you divide by 0.12. In C), you are dividing by a different PF=0.8 twice (unless the second 0.8 is meant to be the efficiency of the amp, which at 80% would be unrealistically high for class A/B). And you are not taking into account the efficiency of the power supply or the fixed front-end overhead. But, alright, I get the gist.
I think we beat the AVR power-consumption horse to death now, but in closing I would say that in the old days of stereo power amps of < 100 W per channel, the typical home electrical circuits were not an issue, but with powerful multi-channel amps and AVRs, they increasingly are.
Sorry I assumed lower efficiency for the lower output scenario because for class AB amps efficiency is not constant, it follows a curve that typically show lower efficiency at lower output level. At rated output and slightly higher efficiency would improve to even 0.75/75% is not uncommon and even 0.8 is possible so I used it in the last example to exaggerate how the calculations could change for different scenarios.
When I divided it by 0.8 twice it was because the first 0.8 was the assumed super high efficiency (sort of best case scenario) and the second 0.8 was the power factor, that could also be higher than Gene's assumption of 0.75 so again just to show the best possible numbers.
CyrusTheGreat_600BC
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Half is for the average Joes. Imagine how much it’s if you’ve a super or trained hearing. Marantz is waste of time and money. I’ve had 8 units over the years, and still own 3 smaller amps, but never would buy another Marantz again. They are prettier than Denon though, I give them that. Even speaker terminals have better quality and look prettier.
polmuaddib
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What are you talking about? What test, review can you offer as proof?
Amir measured three marantz AVPs and found worse SINAD then Denon counterparts, but not half of the frequency response chopped!
Worse SINAD is not the same as FR and the audibility of it is questionable. We have no double blind tests of Denon and Marantz AV devices that I know of.
So, please, if you have some information on a test which shows FR audible issues, list it.
Thank you
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A bit of an exaggeration, but Marantz uses slow filters on all of their units that result in audible high frequency droop. Not audible to those with significant HF hearing loss perhaps, but -0.5dB at 15khz is shockingly poor for a piece of electronics that should be perfectly flat like every other half-decent piece of electronics made by anyone.
This is much worse than inaudible SINAD differences. If you care about SINAD at all, then you should care a LOT more about this.
And I quote from the AV7705 review:
Nothing Audyssey won't fixA bit of an exaggeration, but Marantz uses slow filters on all of their units that result in audible high frequency droop. Not audible to those with significant HF hearing loss perhaps, but -0.5dB at 15khz is shockingly poor for a piece of electronics that should be perfectly flat like every other half-decent piece of electronics made by anyone.
This is much worse than inaudible SINAD differences. If you care about SINAD at all, then you should care a LOT more about this.
I always wondered why it added so much gain above 10 kHz, now I understand.Nothing Audyssey won't fix
Also, the slow filter has negligible effect on FR for contents with sampling rate at 48 kHz or higher, and no effects (in FR) if analog inputs and direct mode are used.
@DrStranger It looks like the new 2022/23 models do support QMS after all but apparently not the latest revised spec of QMS, I know What Hi-Fi isn't a reliable source when it comes to reviews, here is their recent X3800H review, https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/denon-avc-x3800h
"Denon says that as HDMI.org has updated its specifications for QMS (Quick Media Switching), the AVC-X38000H can handle the old standard (as the AVC-X3700H did), but not the latest changes. We can't imagine that being a major issue for anyone though."
"Denon says that as HDMI.org has updated its specifications for QMS (Quick Media Switching), the AVC-X38000H can handle the old standard (as the AVC-X3700H did), but not the latest changes. We can't imagine that being a major issue for anyone though."
DrStranger
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So what does this mean? Did they use a older HDMI controler? If so, Do we know the difference between the old and new? Could it be that HDMi did changes from 2.1 to HDMI 2.1a and thats what they mean?
I still dont understand why they dont write that it has this, even Marantz have not written QMS support.
Highly confusing I must say...
DrStranger
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Can someone explan this to me, the Q&A someone is asking about turning off the internal amps and they say no:
But the manual mention something about the individual control?
manuals.denon.com
But the manual mention something about the individual control?
Connecting an external power amplifier AVR-X3800H
manuals.denon.com
For the dac, they talk about topology and power supply. The new stuff has the same topology but the x4800h and lower do NOT have a dedicated power supply for the digital section.
Not a French speaker but probably taille as used for height based upon the slides on the capacitors.
The one nice thing about Denon & Marantz is that while they have been known to cook their own HDMI boards, I do believe their electronics are UL listed and
Can someone explan this to me, the Q&A someone is asking about turning off the internal amps and they say no:
But the manual mention something about the individual control?
Connecting an external power amplifier AVR-X3800H
There may be individual control of unplugging the preamp to the amp section to improve sinad. The amps themselves still have idle current so they are not fully powered down so whatever level of class A bias is still generating some heat.
DrStranger
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Thank you.
FedEx finally delivered my new 3800H, so I immediately unpacked it, installed it and performed the initial setup. Here are my first impressions, after just a few hours of playing with it:
- It is lighter and not as deep as the Yamaha RX-A6A (which I evaluated back in the spring), so easier to set up and make connections at the back.
- I thought that unlike the A6A plastic front panel, the 3800H's one will be made of aluminum, but that does not appear to be the case. Also, I expected a tilting lower front plate to hide additional controls, but there is none. However, unlike in the A6A there is no plastic panel at the top (prone to scratching, even at the factory), which is a good thing.
- The display is an old style fluorescent instead of LED or LCD, so I am not sure about its durability.
- I followed the setup procedure to the letter. One thing that really surprised me was that it required the user to connect speakers to the AVR when powered on (!).
- The Audyssey MultEQ XT32 requires a min. of 3 measurements in different listening positions, which does not make much sense (an HT with just one chair instead of a wider sofa should also be supported with just 1 measurement). The cardboard mic stand does the job, but it is somewhat flimsy and susceptible to be toppled. (I do appreciate the "greenness" of it, though.)
- Audyssey-determined crossover frequencies are too high. My center channel and surround speakers are THX certified, so they all perform adequately down to exactly 80 Hz. But Audyssey set the center crossover at 120 Hz and, strangely, the surround (speakers much smaller than the 3-way center one) at a lower 110 Hz.
- I do not have a subwoofer in my setup because my L/R front speakers easily reproduce low frequencies down to 24 Hz. So far, I have not been able to find an explicit setting (which exists on the A6A) to direct the LFE channel to those speakers, although Audyssey correctly determined them to be "large."
- The corrections Audyssey set for the L/R front speaker are rather unacceptable (bass is largely gone), so I had to immediately switch to "front L/R bypass mode." However, the setup screen where this can be performed is only accessible when the input is a BD player. When the input is the TV connected via HDMI/eARC (on which the apps to stream Netflix, HBO and Amazon Video run), it is not possible to enter the setup mode on the TV screen. The only option available is to select a "Home Theater" (AVR) source on the TV, which then only shows Audio Inputs (which can be selected), but not any settings. So while streaming Dolby Surround movies from those TV apps, I was only able to access settings on the AVR's display. I was able to set Audyssey to "front L/R bypass mode" for the TV source as well, but I am not sure if I messed up some other settings, since there this one-line navigation is very limiting. (As I recall, there was no such limitation on the A6A, which made it possible to use a full-screen setup even if the source was the TV.)
- The bass leaves a lot to be desired. When listening to CD music from the BD play, it is barely OK. But in action movies, it is quite lacking (e.g. I tried the last episode of The Expanse on Netflix, which has quite a few chest-pounding space explosions; they were kind of there but not really). My L/R front speakers have a sensitivity of 90 dB, nominal impedance of 8 Ohms and lowest impedance of 5 Ohms, so they do not present an overly difficult load on the amps. Even my 23-yo Yamaha receiver appears to have more low-frequency current oomph than this 3800H. Also, at low volumes the bass is quite weak; the volume needs to be cranked up for it to appear, which is a no-go for my nighttime listening (this was also noted in Robinson's review of the 3700H, not that I watch his videos frequently).
- The 3800H temp seems OK in stereo listening, but once I played multi-channel movies (at low to moderate volume), it got quite hot. It has got a lot of vents on the sides of the enclosure, not just at the top, most likely for that very reason. This model has a clear secondary function as a space heater, which would certainly come handy in colder months, but in the warmer season it is an additional burden on the A/C. Excessive heat also reduces reliability.
- So the lows are lacking, what about the highs? To my ears, they are OK but a bit "unclear." I plan to try some full-range reference recordings from Amazon Music HD and report more on that.
Edit:
- The ECO mode defaults to Auto, which causes a switch (with audible relay clicking) of the power amps to higher voltage rails once the volume is increased to roughly 55 dB (on the default scale of 0-98 dB). I observed no difference in bass when ECO is set to Off (which, presumably, causes the higher voltage rails to be used all the time). There is a slider graph which shows relative power consumption, which will come handy to estimate the max. power consumption once I get the power meter.
Overall, I have to say I am not initially impressed. This is my first hands-on encounter with a D/M product, so I may likely not know all the setup tricks, but still... Any tips on how to overcome the above problems are welcome.
- It is lighter and not as deep as the Yamaha RX-A6A (which I evaluated back in the spring), so easier to set up and make connections at the back.
- I thought that unlike the A6A plastic front panel, the 3800H's one will be made of aluminum, but that does not appear to be the case. Also, I expected a tilting lower front plate to hide additional controls, but there is none. However, unlike in the A6A there is no plastic panel at the top (prone to scratching, even at the factory), which is a good thing.
- The display is an old style fluorescent instead of LED or LCD, so I am not sure about its durability.
- I followed the setup procedure to the letter. One thing that really surprised me was that it required the user to connect speakers to the AVR when powered on (!).
- The Audyssey MultEQ XT32 requires a min. of 3 measurements in different listening positions, which does not make much sense (an HT with just one chair instead of a wider sofa should also be supported with just 1 measurement). The cardboard mic stand does the job, but it is somewhat flimsy and susceptible to be toppled. (I do appreciate the "greenness" of it, though.)
- Audyssey-determined crossover frequencies are too high. My center channel and surround speakers are THX certified, so they all perform adequately down to exactly 80 Hz. But Audyssey set the center crossover at 120 Hz and, strangely, the surround (speakers much smaller than the 3-way center one) at a lower 110 Hz.
- I do not have a subwoofer in my setup because my L/R front speakers easily reproduce low frequencies down to 24 Hz. So far, I have not been able to find an explicit setting (which exists on the A6A) to direct the LFE channel to those speakers, although Audyssey correctly determined them to be "large."
- The corrections Audyssey set for the L/R front speaker are rather unacceptable (bass is largely gone), so I had to immediately switch to "front L/R bypass mode." However, the setup screen where this can be performed is only accessible when the input is a BD player. When the input is the TV connected via HDMI/eARC (on which the apps to stream Netflix, HBO and Amazon Video run), it is not possible to enter the setup mode on the TV screen. The only option available is to select a "Home Theater" (AVR) source on the TV, which then only shows Audio Inputs (which can be selected), but not any settings. So while streaming Dolby Surround movies from those TV apps, I was only able to access settings on the AVR's display. I was able to set Audyssey to "front L/R bypass mode" for the TV source as well, but I am not sure if I messed up some other settings, since there this one-line navigation is very limiting. (As I recall, there was no such limitation on the A6A, which made it possible to use a full-screen setup even if the source was the TV.)
- The bass leaves a lot to be desired. When listening to CD music from the BD play, it is barely OK. But in action movies, it is quite lacking (e.g. I tried the last episode of The Expanse on Netflix, which has quite a few chest-pounding space explosions; they were kind of there but not really). My L/R front speakers have a sensitivity of 90 dB, nominal impedance of 8 Ohms and lowest impedance of 5 Ohms, so they do not present an overly difficult load on the amps. Even my 23-yo Yamaha receiver appears to have more low-frequency current oomph than this 3800H. Also, at low volumes the bass is quite weak; the volume needs to be cranked up for it to appear, which is a no-go for my nighttime listening (this was also noted in Robinson's review of the 3700H, not that I watch his videos frequently).
- The 3800H temp seems OK in stereo listening, but once I played multi-channel movies (at low to moderate volume), it got quite hot. It has got a lot of vents on the sides of the enclosure, not just at the top, most likely for that very reason. This model has a clear secondary function as a space heater, which would certainly come handy in colder months, but in the warmer season it is an additional burden on the A/C. Excessive heat also reduces reliability.
- So the lows are lacking, what about the highs? To my ears, they are OK but a bit "unclear." I plan to try some full-range reference recordings from Amazon Music HD and report more on that.
Edit:
- The ECO mode defaults to Auto, which causes a switch (with audible relay clicking) of the power amps to higher voltage rails once the volume is increased to roughly 55 dB (on the default scale of 0-98 dB). I observed no difference in bass when ECO is set to Off (which, presumably, causes the higher voltage rails to be used all the time). There is a slider graph which shows relative power consumption, which will come handy to estimate the max. power consumption once I get the power meter.
Overall, I have to say I am not initially impressed. This is my first hands-on encounter with a D/M product, so I may likely not know all the setup tricks, but still... Any tips on how to overcome the above problems are welcome.
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I have appreciated Marantz for years -
The lack of Bass is probably a "voicing" issue - the default target curve from Audyssey is relatively flat - you might be seeking something more akin to the Harman curves... - I believe there is a utility (Ratbudyssey?) which can be used to set a custom target curve with Audyssey and the smartphone app... I'm not a Denon owner, so just hearsay from my perspective.
Also try the Audyssey Dynamic Eq if you are not already, it seems to boost the bass quite a lot for me. (Reference offset of -10dB is probably the one for TV).
Edit: Will probably only work if you don't do the L/R bypass.
Edit: Will probably only work if you don't do the L/R bypass.
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Thanks. Based on the description at the bottom of the Audyssey settings screen, the "L/R Bypass" entirely bypasses Audyssey processing for the front L/R speakers, which is where the deep bass comes from. The "Flat" setting on that same screen is supposed to be used "in small apartments" and reduces the bass even further. The other two settings are "MultEQ XT32" (which is what Audyssey measured and corrected to diminish bass) and "Off." I did not hear any bass difference between the "L/R Bypass" and "Off" settings, which tells me the Audyssey indeed bypasses the main speakers with the former setting.
Now, an article machine-translated from Japanese mentions a Yamauchi-san who tunes the sound of all Denon's devices, incl. the 3800H. Readers rightly asked, what does this really mean, given that the AVR's FR is supposed to be practically flat in the audible range? I suspect that the transformer and caps in the 3800H have been cost-optimized and are simply insufficient to produce the current needed to drive 4 ported 8" woofers in my mains at low frequencies. But I may be wrong. Let me try the "direct path" mode and also UHD streaming, and I will report further findings.
I don't know what your speakers are - but many full range speakers have an impedance drop in the low end... my own speakers drop to 3 ohm in the low end, and yes this can make things harder for the AVR amps... but that is not normally the issue.
If your amps run out of current, you will typically hear the soundstage collapse, vocals get muddled, it will be less obvious in the bass than in the midrange (from my experience)
If your amps run out of current, you will typically hear the soundstage collapse, vocals get muddled, it will be less obvious in the bass than in the midrange (from my experience)
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