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Apple vs Masimo, the aftermath of the lawsuit

Prana Ferox

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I heard on Marketplace yesterday that the feature is "inactivated" on Apple watches (i.e., those being sold in affected territories). In other words, everything's there, just turned off -- like the heated seats in a cheapskate's Bimmer ;) OK, or like the remote start in a cheapskate's Toyota. :)

I know Apple customers are more likely to be rule-followers than those devotees of, umm, other platforms... so maybe there won't be any quick hacks circulating out there on the cheezier fringes of the world wide webz to reactivate the feature?

This has been how the different watch vendors have been handling ECG / Afib detector functionality. It gets added to the watch hardware and then as they get local medical approval, it gets turned on in software. If you have a modern health tracker watch it probably has a couple hardware / software features disabled either because of regulatory hurdles or they just haven't worked the software bugs out yet.

Apple's ecosystem is about the last place I'd expect rebel firmware though, especially again with medically relevant features.
 

Galliardist

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I heard on Marketplace yesterday that the feature is "inactivated" on Apple watches (i.e., those being sold in affected territories). In other words, everything's there, just turned off -- like the heated seats in a cheapskate's Bimmer ;) OK, or like the remote start in a cheapskate's Toyota. :)

I know Apple customers are more likely to be rule-followers than those devotees of, umm, other platforms... so maybe there won't be any quick hacks circulating out there on the cheezier fringes of the world wide webz to reactivate the feature?
I strongly recommend that you don’t do this, but it is the first result from a Google search:

 

mhardy6647

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I strongly recommend that you don’t do this, but it is the first result from a Google search:

Oh, they'll be watchin' you now...
;)
 

GXAlan

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I strongly recommend that you don’t do this, but it is the first result from a Google search:


This is one area where the patent system works. All of the details are given for an invention for the time limited exclusive commercialization rights.

If someone wants to homebrew their own setup leveraging the best software patents in the world, you should be able to do it as long as you are not commercializing it.

Obviously patents are written to be both specific and broad, with enough detail to be defensible but vague enough to make it tricky for others to copy in countries that you didn’t file the patent in, etc.

Unlike trademarks which are lost if you don’t defend it, patent infringers doesn’t negate a patent if the patent owner lets it slide by.

There is actually a strategy of letting your competitor violate your patent long enough so that when you do sue them, you can show a long backlog of profits/unfair revenue which can be used to win a bigger settlement.
 

Ron Texas

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Unlike trademarks which are lost if you don’t defend it, patent infringers doesn’t negate a patent if the patent owner lets it slide by.

There is actually a strategy of letting your competitor violate your patent long enough so that when you do sue them, you can show a long backlog of profits/unfair revenue which can be used to win a bigger settlement.
Your thinking here does not work for non practicing entities. Those are patent owners who neither use nor license the patents. They are otherwise known as patent trolls.

I'm pretty sure Apple will rewrite the app to get around the patent, or license the technology from someone other than Masimo. Settling with Masimo would only encourage more lawsuits from other parties. In the link I posted above Masimo is badmouthing Apple. I wonder where that will go...
 

GXAlan

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Your thinking here does not work for non practicing entities. Those are patent owners who neither use nor license the patents. They are otherwise known as patent trolls.
That’s a good point. Patent trolls break the system. I was thinking of it from the other way when a big med device company steals something from a smaller one.

I'm pretty sure Apple will rewrite the app to get around the patent, or license the technology from someone other than Masimo. Settling with Masimo would only encourage more lawsuits from other parties. In the link I posted above Masimo is badmouthing Apple. I wonder where that will go...

There are more patents than I had time to go through, but the one I cited that Apple has an appeal focused on is all about power management. Masimo has insisted that they are interested in licensing but Apple is insistent that the patent should be invalid. Where we are at is that multiple reviews have said that the patent is in fact valid.

The patent isn’t a one click patent. It’s very detailed. I think this part is easy to understand as audiophiles
FIG. 5 illustrates emitter driver output current versus time. The graph 500 depicts the combination of a red LED drive current 510 and an IR drive current 560. The solid line graph 502 illustrates drive currents having a high duty cycle. The dashed line graph 504 illustrates drive currents having a low duty cycle. In a typical pulse oximeter, the duty cycle of the drive signals is constant and provides sufficient dark bands 508 to demodulate the detector response into red and IR channels. The emitter drivers 480 (FIG. 4), however, require a significant portion of the overall pulse oximeter power budget. Intermittently reducing the drive current duty cycle can advantageously reduce power dissipation without compromising signal integrity. As an example, a low power pulse oximeter implementation nominally consuming 500 mw may be able to reduce power consumption on the order of 70 mw by such drive current duty cycle reductions. In a preferred embodiment, the drive current duty cycle is varied within a range from about 25% to about 3.125%. In a more preferred embodiment, the drive current duty cycle is intermittently reduced from about 25% to about 3.125%. In conjunction with an intermittently reduced duty cycle or as an independent sampling mechanism, there may be a “data off” time period longer than one drive current cycle where the emitter drivers 480 (FIG. 4) are turned off. The detector front-end 490 (FIG. 4) may also be powered down during such a data off period, as described with respect to FIGS. 8 and 9, below.
FIG. 6 is a graph 600 of a pre-processor output signal610 over time depicting the result of intermittent sampling at the detector front-end 490 (FIG. 4). The output signal 610 is a red channel 412 (FIG. 4) or an IR channel 414 (FIG. 4) output from the pre-processor 410 (FIG. 4), which is input to the post processor 430(FIG. 4), as described above. The output signal 610has “on” periods 612, during which time the detector front-end 490 (FIG. 4) is powered-up and “off” periods614, during which time the detector front-end 490(FIG. 4) is powered-down. The location and duration of the on periods 612 and off periods 614 are determined by the front-end control 364 (FIG. 4).
Also shown in FIG. 6 is a corresponding timeline 601of overlapping data blocks 700, which are “snap-shots” of the pre-processor output signal 610 over specific time intervals. Specifically, the post processor 430 (FIG. 4) processes a sliding window of samples of the pre-processor output signal 610, as described with respect to FIGS. 7A-B, below. Advantageously, the post processor 430 (FIG. 4) continues to function during off portions 614, marking as invalid those data blocks 640 that incorporate off portions 614. A freshness counter can be used to measure the time period 660between valid data blocks 630, which can be displayed on a pulse oximeter monitor as an indication of confidence in the current measurements.
FIGS. 7A-B illustrate data blocks 700, which are processed by the post processor 430 (FIG. 4). Each data block 700 has n samples 702 of the pre-processor output and corresponds to a time interval704 of n/fs, where fs is the sample frequency. For example, in one embodiment n=600 and fs=62.5 Hz. Hence, each data block time interval 704 is nominally 9.6 sec.
As shown in FIG. 7A, each data block 700 also has a relative time shift 706 from the preceding data block, where is an integral number of sample periods. That is, =m/fs, where m is an integer representing the number of samples dropped from the preceding data block and added to the succeeding data block. In the embodiment described above, m=75 and =1.2 sec, nominally. The corresponding overlap 708 of two adjacent data blocks 710, 720 is (n−m)/fs. In the embodiment described above, the overlap 708 is nominally 9.6 sec−1.2 sec=8.4 sec. The greater the overlap 708, i.e. the smaller the time shift 706, the more data blocks there are to process in the post-processor 430 (FIG. 4), with a corresponding greater power consumption. The overlap 708 between successive data blocks 710, 720 may vary from n−1 samples to no samples, i.e. no overlap. Also, as shown in FIG. 7B, there may be a sample gap 756 or negative overlap, i.e. samples between data blocks that are not processed by the post-processor, allowing further post-processor power savings. Sample gaps 756 may correspond to detector front-end off periods 614 (FIG. 6).

The easiest thing is for Apple to wait it out. Masimo’s technology was first filed for patent protection in 2002 and it expires end of 2027. So in 2027 anyone can use the tech.

The whole point is that pulse ox doesn’t help to have averages or random sampling a few times a day. When you hold your breathe for even 10 seconds, it goes up and down. So you need to monitor continuously. But if you do that, you use up a ton of battery power.

Masimo came up with technology that relies on both IR and red LEDs and monitoring reflectance to power down when the data is likely to have poor SNR and ramp up when hints of concern, sort of like working with a thumbnail for a security camera and zooming in when you see something weird and to ramp up power and ignore power savings to monitor critical things. My analogy is obvious but they go into actual detail in the patent which is not obvious.

So Apple can redo the software so that it doesn’t utilize power management the way that Masimo designed. You can do this with better CPUs or more dense batteries. They can also disable the feature since they know people will still buy the Apple Watch anyway.

Anyway, going back to Marantz. Could Apple do something like make Apple Music available for Heos as part of a negotiation? Sure. So maybe Apple losing is a good thing. Could this also mean that Apple Music never gets implemented in Heos? That’s certainly possible too.

I have no stake in any of this other than I really do like patent owners, who aren’t trolls, to reap the rewards of their efforts because I myself benefit financially from patents that are licensed.
 

Ron Texas

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That’s a good point. Patent trolls break the system. I was thinking of it from the other way when a big med device company steals something from a smaller one.



There are more patents than I had time to go through, but the one I cited that Apple has an appeal focused on is all about power management. Masimo has insisted that they are interested in licensing but Apple is insistent that the patent should be invalid. Where we are at is that multiple reviews have said that the patent is in fact valid.



The easiest thing is for Apple to wait it out. Masimo’s technology was first filed for patent protection in 2002 and it expires end of 2027. So in 2027 anyone can use the tech.

The whole point is that pulse ox doesn’t help to have averages or random sampling a few times a day. When you hold your breathe for even 10 seconds, it goes up and down. So you need to monitor continuously. But if you do that, you use up a ton of battery power.

Masimo came up with technology that relies on both IR and red LEDs and monitoring reflectance to power down when the data is likely to have poor SNR and ramp up when hints of concern, sort of like working with a thumbnail for a security camera and zooming in when you see something weird and to ramp up power and ignore power savings to monitor critical things. My analogy is obvious but they go into actual detail in the patent which is not obvious.

So Apple can redo the software so that it doesn’t utilize power management the way that Masimo designed. You can do this with better CPUs or more dense batteries. They can also disable the feature since they know people will still buy the Apple Watch anyway.

Anyway, going back to Marantz. Could Apple do something like make Apple Music available for Heos as part of a negotiation? Sure. So maybe Apple losing is a good thing. Could this also mean that Apple Music never gets implemented in Heos? That’s certainly possible too.

I have no stake in any of this other than I really do like patent owners, who aren’t trolls, to reap the rewards of their efforts because I myself benefit financially from patents that are licensed.
You did your homework and have some great insights. I don't know the significance of bood oxygen levels other than I read it needs to be checked at high altitude. I live at sea level but spend about a month at high altitude in the summer. Some days I feel like a mess, but I don't get classical altitude sickness which includes severe nausea which can knock you off your feet.
 

amper42

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You did your homework and have some great insights. I don't know the significance of bood oxygen levels other than I read it needs to be checked at high altitude. I live at sea level but spend about a month at high altitude in the summer. Some days I feel like a mess, but I don't get classical altitude sickness which includes severe nausea which can knock you off your feet.

Covid, Asthma, COPD are all examples where pulse/oxygen levels can be helpful. They sold a ton of these units in 2020 when Covid started ramping up as a way to tell people when they needed to get to the hospital. Unfortunately, intubation wasn't a great treatment and many died. Every time you go to the Dr. they check blood pressure and put an oximeter on your finger to measure levels. Typically, a 95 or higher is an acceptable reading. It's pretty standard.
 
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PatentLawyer

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No, no. That’s only for a trademark that you have to show proof of use.

A patent is a patent.

Source: I have several granted US patents



The media may spout a bunch of BS, but you go through all of the legal documents and things are precise. Here is the actual patent being discussed after looking it up.

But this action is in the ITC. At the ITC, if you don’t have a ”domestic industry” you cannot get an import ban because otherwise , there is no “unfair competition“ for the ITC to redress.

Source: I‘m a trial lawyer specializing in patent cases.
 

Ron Texas

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Covid, Asthma, COPD are all examples where pulse/oxygen levels can be helpful. They sold a ton of these units in 2020 when Covid started ramping up as a way to tell people when they needed to get to the hospital. Unfortunately, intubation wasn't a great treatment and many died. Every time you go to the Dr. they check blood pressure and put an oximeter on your finger to measure levels. Typically, a 95 or higher is an acceptable reading. It's pretty standard.
Yeah, I've had those things on my finger. If one is having trouble breathing, the measurement isn't important. Just go straight to the nearest ER.
 

Ron Texas

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But this action is in the ITC. At the ITC, if you don’t have a ”domestic industry” you cannot get an import ban because otherwise , there is no “unfair competition“ for the ITC to redress.

Source: I‘m a trial lawyer specializing in patent cases.
Thank you for checking in here.
 

amper42

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Masimo MightySAT RX

Masimo W1 Medical Watch
 

Ron Texas

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I'm feeling a touch hypoxic.
 

amirm

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Covid, Asthma, COPD are all examples where pulse/oxygen levels can be helpful.
The other major application is for detection of sleep apnea. I did an at home study for it and all they send you is the blood oximeter. Any major drops in your average level indicates you have stopped breathing. I proceeded to buy the same one online from Wellue (other companies sell it as well):
61nRseTcKdL._SL1500_.jpg



Sleep analysis is one of the major application for watches. It expands their market beyond people who exercise. The Oximeter adds significant data as far as quality of the sleep so not being able to have this feature, is a big deal.
 

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You did your homework and have some great insights. I don't know the significance of bood oxygen levels other than I read it needs to be checked at high altitude

A mate suffering from long covid is prob still here thanks to his apple watch blood oxygen sensor along with the heart monitoring functions, great bit of kit
 

GXAlan

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Yeah, I've had those things on my finger. If one is having trouble breathing, the measurement isn't important. Just go straight to the nearest ER.
Exactly. When you get to the ER, the ones that they hook up to you are the Masimo ones. Think of Masimo like the Neutrik of pulse oximeters, only those finger clip things are active with LEDs and sensors.

Then if you really are sick and went to a rural hospital and now need to be flown via helicopter to the bigger hospital, you get put on a portable monitor which runs on batteries and is where the the power efficiency can help.

Masimo doesn’t have the monopoly on pulse oximeters but they have a lot of proprietary technology that makes them the gold standard, etc.

But this action is in the ITC. At the ITC, if you don’t have a ”domestic industry” you cannot get an import ban because otherwise , there is no “unfair competition“ for the ITC to redress.

Source: I‘m a trial lawyer specializing in patent cases.

Thanks. In the original post, it was suggested that there was no equivalent product from Masimo and I was saying for a patent infringement issue, you don’t need an equivalent product and then the clarification was for the ITC specifically. And then I replied by saying that there clearly had to be another product from Masimo otherwise that would be the easiest way to nullify Masimo’s request.

You’re the most qualified on here to speak about this. What’s your audiophile take on this? Specifically from the standpoint of impact on something like Denon/Marantz? If Apple and Masimo really butt heads, can it lead to a scenario like Apple/Google early on where Google Maps didn’t have feature parity on Android vs iOS and all of sudden the Marantz feature set with Apple is less perfect? HEOS doesn’t support Apple Music, but Sonos does, for example. You can still get Apple Music via a AppleTV and then HDMI cable to a Denon/Marantz product.
 

Ron Texas

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I used a Garmin watch for a while. The UI is really cool and not needing a daily charge was super. Unfortunately, it would not read my pulse correctly except at rest. I wonder where their blood oxygen technology comes from.
 

GXAlan

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I used a Garmin watch for a while. The UI is really cool and not needing a daily charge was super. Unfortunately, it would not read my pulse correctly except at rest. I wonder where their blood oxygen technology comes from.

The underlying technology is from the late 1970’s. If you really are curious these are two great articles



A relevant quote from that 2021 article:

“The pulse oximeter is a very special type of patient monitor that still, as of this date, has no standard method of calibration. It is generally thought that pulse oximetry simply measures photometric color changes of arterial blood. It is actually more complicated, as it measures changes in arterial blood color through dynamically changing filters, such as surrounding blood vessels, blood-filled tissue, bone and skin. Interference from these currently unpredictable, ever-changing factors, complicates the calculation of pulse oximetry measurement and it is difficult to separate the effects of these various factors on arterial blood oxygenation.”

The stuff from Garmin/Apple are not designed as medical devices. The stuff from Masimo is.


And the algorithms to figure out when someone is moving vs still is some of what the lawsuits are about.
 

PatentLawyer

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Exactly. When you get to the ER, the ones that they hook up to you are the Masimo ones. Think of Masimo like the Neutrik of pulse oximeters, only those finger clip things are active with LEDs and sensors.

Then if you really are sick and went to a rural hospital and now need to be flown via helicopter to the bigger hospital, you get put on a portable monitor which runs on batteries and is where the the power efficiency can help.

Masimo doesn’t have the monopoly on pulse oximeters but they have a lot of proprietary technology that makes them the gold standard, etc.



Thanks. In the original post, it was suggested that there was no equivalent product from Masimo and I was saying for a patent infringement issue, you don’t need an equivalent product and then the clarification was for the ITC specifically. And then I replied by saying that there clearly had to be another product from Masimo otherwise that would be the easiest way to nullify Masimo’s request.

You’re the most qualified on here to speak about this. What’s your audiophile take on this? Specifically from the standpoint of impact on something like Denon/Marantz? If Apple and Masimo really butt heads, can it lead to a scenario like Apple/Google early on where Google Maps didn’t have feature parity on Android vs iOS and all of sudden the Marantz feature set with Apple is less perfect? HEOS doesn’t support Apple Music, but Sonos does, for example. You can still get Apple Music via a AppleTV and then HDMI cable to a Denon/Marantz product.
With apologies, I represent a bunch of folks in your hypothetical and so it’s probably not appropriate / ethical for me to comment even though this forum is anonymous. If you want to pose a much more generalized hypothetical without companies I would chime in. I don’t mean to be pain , but it’s how I feed my family so I don’t play games with the rules.
 
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