Apple vs Masimo, the aftermath of the lawsuit

[sweetchaos]

Well, Masimo has just won a small victory in their fight with Apple.
As of about 8 hours ago, Apple is not banned at selling Apple Watch Series 9 (latest gen) and Ultra 2 (latest gen) with their 'blood oxygen feature' in the US.

To comply, Apple must sell the watches without this "Blood Oxygen Feature".

I've verified that the current USA website doesnt have this feature listed anymore:

Apple Watch Series 9

Our most capable chip in a smartwatch ever. A magical way to interact with your Apple Watch. And a display that’s twice as bright.

www.apple.com

But this ban doesnt affect Canadians, which means we can still buy it with this feature. I've verified it here:

Apple Watch Series 9

Our most capable chip in a smartwatch ever. A magical way to interact with your Apple Watch. And a display that’s twice as bright

www.apple.com

Time for our American neighbors to travel to Canada, just to buy the latest generation of Apple Watches.
What else is this lawsuit going to affect?

 

[Keith_W]

It is hilarious for Apple to fall victim to this when just a decade ago they were busy suing Samsung, HTC, and others for bogus patents like rounded rectangles.

 

[GXAlan]

It is hilarious for Apple to fall victim to this when just a decade ago they were busy suing Samsung, HTC, and others for bogus patents like rounded rectangles.

Karma?

But Masimo’s patent is not really bogus though.

US9341565B2 - Multiple-wavelength physiological monitor - Google Patents

A physiological monitor for determining blood oxygen saturation of a medical patient includes a sensor, a signal processor and a display. The sensor includes at least three light emitting diodes. Each light emitting diode is adapted to emit light of a different wavelength. The sensor also...

patents.google.com

It’s probably this patent and you know Apple had the best lawyers money can buy. But this does show that no one is above the rule of law.

Masimo genuinely fabs their own sensors

Custom III-V Epitaxial Services - Masimo Semiconductor

Experience & Capacity At Masimo Semiconductor, our extensive MOCVD experience and capacity enable us to grow a wide range of GaAs and InP epitaxial structures to our customers’ designs. We recognize that time-to-market is critical to our customers’ success, so we strive to provide the fastest...

masimosemiconductor.com

 

[Galliardist]

Karma?

But Masimo’s patent is not really bogus though.

US9341565B2 - Multiple-wavelength physiological monitor - Google Patents

A physiological monitor for determining blood oxygen saturation of a medical patient includes a sensor, a signal processor and a display. The sensor includes at least three light emitting diodes. Each light emitting diode is adapted to emit light of a different wavelength. The sensor also...

patents.google.com

It’s probably this patent and you know Apple had the best lawyers money can buy. But this does show that no one is above the rule of law.

Masimo genuinely fabs their own sensors

Custom III-V Epitaxial Services - Masimo Semiconductor

Experience & Capacity At Masimo Semiconductor, our extensive MOCVD experience and capacity enable us to grow a wide range of GaAs and InP epitaxial structures to our customers’ designs. We recognize that time-to-market is critical to our customers’ success, so we strive to provide the fastest...

masimosemiconductor.com

But they don't yet sell an equivalent to the feature as implemented in the Apple Watch. They have announced that they intend to sell such a product, which is enough to enforce the patent in the US - for now.

Both sides seem to be spouting a whole load of BS about both the feature and the patents, which is not encouraging when these products are about monitoring aspects of your health.

 

[Galliardist]

It is hilarious for Apple to fall victim to this when just a decade ago they were busy suing Samsung, HTC, and others for bogus patents like rounded rectangles.

At the same time, though, the actual patents they claimed for some genuine innovations in the iPhone were also thrown out. Not all of them should have been.

It has seemed to me for a long time that patent lawsuits, at least in the US, should also be covered by gambling legislation.

To this non-lawyer, Masimo seem to be in the right on this one - as long as they introduce a product into the US market. Meanwhile, I'm sure a Chinese company will soon flood the rest of the world with a product that Masimo can do nothing about, because they don't have any protection outside the US.

 

[GXAlan]

But they don't yet sell an equivalent to the feature as implemented in the Apple Watch. They have announced that they intend to sell such a product, which is enough to enforce the patent in the US - for now.

No, no. That’s only for a trademark that you have to show proof of use.

A patent is a patent.

Source: I have several granted US patents

Both sides seem to be spouting a whole load of BS about both the feature and the patents, which is not encouraging when these products are about monitoring aspects of your health.

The media may spout a bunch of BS, but you go through all of the legal documents and things are precise. Here is the actual patent being discussed after looking it up.

US8457703B2 - Low power pulse oximeter - Google Patents

A pulse oximeter may reduce power consumption in the absence of overriding conditions. Various sampling mechanisms may be used individually or in combination. Various parameters may be monitored to trigger or override a reduced power consumption state. In this manner, a pulse oximeter can lower...

patents.google.com

 

[Galliardist]

No, no. That’s only for a trademark that you have to show proof of use.

A patent is a patent.

Source: I have several granted US patents



The media may spout a bunch of BS, but you go through all of the legal documents and things are precise. Here is the actual patent being discussed after looking it up.

US8457703B2 - Low power pulse oximeter - Google Patents

A pulse oximeter may reduce power consumption in the absence of overriding conditions. Various sampling mechanisms may be used individually or in combination. Various parameters may be monitored to trigger or override a reduced power consumption state. In this manner, a pulse oximeter can lower...

patents.google.com

Sorry, I should have been more clear - they need their own product to be able to enforce the import ban

 

[Bergante]

It is hilarious for Apple to fall victim to this when just a decade ago they were busy suing Samsung, HTC, and others for bogus patents like rounded rectangles.

That wasn't bogus. It's the kind that becomes "obvious" when someone else has done it.

I remember American customs blocked the import of a lot of dark multimeters with a yellow holster because they clearly resembled Fluke units.

Or look at the Saramonic wireless microphones resembling the Sony UWP-D series (3rd generation) including a yellow frame around the screen.

 

[GXAlan]

Sorry, I should have been more clear - they need their own product to be able to enforce the import ban

The patent describes what Masimo was focused on “For example, a pulse oximeter may be attached to a patient during emergency transport and remain with the patient as they are moved between hospital wards. Further, pulse oximeters are often implemented as plug-in modules for multiparameter patient monitors having a restricted power budget.”

Do you think Apple would be losing this badly if all they needed to demonstrate is that Masimo didn’t have any product being sold?

https://cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions-orders/22-1890.OPINION.1-12-2024_2252713.pdf

Is where I looked up the patents that are infringing.

But this document actually lists the ones involved with the import ban.

https://www.usitc.gov/system/files?file=secretary/fed_reg_notices/337/337_1276_notice10262023sgl.pdf

Anyway, bringing this back the Marantz AV10.

This is the most expensive product to be released by D&M for home cinema and long term support is to be expected. If this came from a company like Tonewinner, people would be hesitant due to the long term support. We see that even with Emotiva. People are nervous that Emotiva’s processors won’t be well supported even though the company is well established.

Sound United has done a great job, but now it is under new management.

If Masimo loses a ton of money on this, then there is greater risk that you run into a situation where Sound United is sold to generate short term capital and it’s easier to sacrifice this product than a high volume one.

If Masimo wins a lot of money on this, then the long term gamble that Masimo has to integrate all of their businesses has a chance to make Marantz gear EVEN better. They have access to their own fab! That’s 1980’s Sony level of integration and potential for innovation!

So in a way, if you are rich enough to not care about long term support, you probably can afford Trinnov. If the AV10 is the biggest purchase you have made for your home theater and you are “reaching” and “saving up” for it — it’s good to know the health of the company you’re spending your money with.

 

[Kegemusha]

Can't Apple pay the rights otherwise?

 

[Galliardist]

The patent describes what Masimo was focused on “For example, a pulse oximeter may be attached to a patient during emergency transport and remain with the patient as they are moved between hospital wards. Further, pulse oximeters are often implemented as plug-in modules for multiparameter patient monitors having a restricted power budget.”

Do you think Apple would be losing this badly if all they needed to demonstrate is that Masimo didn’t have any product being sold?

https://cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions-orders/22-1890.OPINION.1-12-2024_2252713.pdf

Is where I looked up the patents that are infringing.

But this document actually lists the ones involved with the import ban.

https://www.usitc.gov/system/files?file=secretary/fed_reg_notices/337/337_1276_notice10262023sgl.pdf

Anyway, bringing this back the Marantz AV10.

This is the most expensive product to be released by D&M for home cinema and long term support is to be expected. If this came from a company like Tonewinner, people would be hesitant due to the long term support. We see that even with Emotiva. People are nervous that Emotiva’s processors won’t be well supported even though the company is well established.

Sound United has done a great job, but now it is under new management.

If Masimo loses a ton of money on this, then there is greater risk that you run into a situation where Sound United is sold to generate short term capital and it’s easier to sacrifice this product than a high volume one.

If Masimo wins a lot of money on this, then the long term gamble that Masimo has to integrate all of their businesses has a chance to make Marantz gear EVEN better. They have access to their own fab! That’s 1980’s Sony level of integration and potential for innovation!

So in a way, if you are rich enough to not care about long term support, you probably can afford Trinnov. If the AV10 is the biggest purchase you have made for your home theater and you are “reaching” and “saving up” for it — it’s good to know the health of the company you’re spending your money with.

Agreed re Sound United. As far as the patents go, the best information I can find is that Apple are probably in breach of the patents remaining in the lawsuit as it stands today.

A poke around Masimo's website tells me that their W1 Sport watch featuring the technology concerned is becoming available: it's listed on Amazon and other US vendors to be delivered in early February, with a promise of a discount on a later "Freedom" watch, and a W1 Medical watch is also announced.

Masimo - Home

Masimo Personal Health

www.masimo.com

Amazon.com

 

[Bergante]

But they don't yet sell an equivalent to the feature as implemented in the Apple Watch. They have announced that they intend to sell such a product, which is enough to enforce the patent in the US - for now.

Both sides seem to be spouting a whole load of BS about both the feature and the patents, which is not encouraging when these products are about monitoring aspects of your health.

It would be interesting if, for whatever reason, they didn't release the intended product after all.

Microsoft was about to get in legal trouble in the past because of their notorious "vaporware" practices. The most blatant was the annoucement of something called "NetPC" right after the NC concept was defined.

Network Computer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The NetPC did never exist as far as I know, yet it cast enough FUD around the NC concept.

Another example was the pathetic show of Steve Ballmer showing a mock up "Slate" at CES 2010. The product didn't ever exist. Moreover, some clever Apple people had registered the islate.com domain back in 2007. And it seems quite obvious that the "slate" name was an attempt at trampling the launch of Apple's iSlate, only that the real name kept in secret was iPad!

In the Slate/iPad case the vaporware thing didn't really succeed and it backfired craptacularly of course. But it was a textbook vaporware example. At the time nobody believed Apple would pull off such a polished product before a year and the consensus was that the price would be double the actual price.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Love my Garmin and it’s O2 Sensor.

 

[delta76]

It is hilarious for Apple to fall victim to this when just a decade ago they were busy suing Samsung, HTC, and others for bogus patents like rounded rectangles.

they were sued by some Swiss company/organization over the clock design as well. what comes around comes around.

but such a capital world. you can't be that big for being nice and fair. you have to bully your way out. Zero empathy for Apple, just a sad observation.

 

[Ron Texas]

On business sites I have seen it speculated that Apple will rewrite the software rather than settle with Masimo. Meanwhile Apple has produced a batch of watches without the blood oxygen app.

 

[Laserjock]

If I buy a new Apple Watch 9 that was in stock with this feature, will it stay intact as long as I don’t update the iOS for it?

 

[Prana Ferox]

I also like my Garmin

I am amused that we have several threads about how our electronic devices collect too much personal data, and then one complaining how my wrist-based timepiece can't examine my blood

 

[Ron Texas]

https://www.macrumors.com/2024/01/18/masimo-ceo-apple-blood-oxygen-sensor-unreliable/
The latest news... The parties are in court ordered mediation, but Masimo believes it will not result in a settlement.

 

[mhardy6647]

I heard on Marketplace yesterday that the feature is "inactivated" on Apple watches (i.e., those being sold in affected territories). In other words, everything's there, just turned off -- like the heated seats in a cheapskate's Bimmer OK, or like the remote start in a cheapskate's Toyota.

I know Apple customers are more likely to be rule-followers than those devotees of, umm, other platforms... so maybe there won't be any quick hacks circulating out there on the cheezier fringes of the world wide webz to reactivate the feature?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

If I buy a new Apple Watch 9 that was in stock with this feature, will it stay intact as long as I don’t update the iOS for it?

They can probably push he update behind the UI. Google used to do that all the time when a new Android version came out. One day it ad this function, the next day it didn't.