Subwoofer Comparison

[denzel200219]

Do smaller subs like the Kali WS6.2 or SVS Micro 3000 offer tighter bass compared to 12 inch subs because of the smaller woofer? Or does woofer size not matter?

 

[waynel]

Do smaller subs like the Kali WS6.2 or SVS Micro 3000 offer tighter bass compared to 12 inch subs because of the smaller woofer?

No

 

[Willem]

They seem to be cleaner because they don't go as low, and the woolliness is from room modes at the low frequencies. Woolliness is a property of the room and not normally of the sub itself.

 

[Oddball]

Hi all experts JTR sub

@sweetchaos​

I am confused about what subwoofer works best based on my room size and my listening interest
i would like to get your opinions and advice on what model to choose
JTR 4000 OR JTR RS2
My Interest is 95% movies & 5% music
room size 21 * 15.4 * 8.8 = almost 2846 cu.ft
I will be using 4 subs
my system 9.4.4
any advice or recommendation I would be grateful

As you noted in your post, you need to decide if sealed or ported is your preference. Seems like resources are not limited, so perhaps in the room of that size you could go for 4 sealed subs and count on room gain in the lower end. Generally ported would give you a better lower extension up/close to port tuning point so could get SPL at lower price.

You would likely need to keep your RS2's at half volume or less in that room. That could help with distortion, but overall, having 8 18" drivers in such a medium room might really overwhelm it regardless of all- can't say I ever heard similar setup. So 4 15" (or 18" if going for infra bass) subs with 1000W will likely cover your use case and then some.

Also, you should think about your room - is it dedicated HT or living room? If not dedicated, there will be some resonance frequencies in the lower end that you will need to deal with.

 

[Curvature]

That could help with distortion, but overall, having 8 18" drivers in such a medium room might really overwhelm it regardless of al

There is no such thing as "overwhelm" in a tuned system. A lot of unused headroom, sure.

 

[Oddball]

There is no such thing as "overwhelm" in a tuned system. A lot of unused headroom, sure.

And why would you tune your system to 2x or even more of what you need? There is charity if u want to give away money, no?

 

[Curvature]

tune your system

Tuning a system with subs—I mean measuring response and establishing correct levels, gain, bandwidth, crossover and EQ. How many subs a person needs and what size they should be are then a question of SPL vs. frequency (which can be approximately calculated fairly easily).

I was specifically responding to you and your use of the word "overwhelm". Subwoofers do no such thing unless played untuned.

 

[Oddball]

Tuning a system with subs—I mean measuring response and establishing correct levels, gain, bandwidth, crossover and EQ. How many subs a person needs and what size they should be are then a question of SPL vs. frequency (which can be approximately calculated fairly easily).

I was specifically responding to you and your use of the word "overwhelm". Subwoofers do no such thing unless played untuned.

Agreed, but why would you want to just argue semantics vs provide the advice to OP? Is that helpful or useful in your view?

 

[Curvature]

Agreed, but why would you want to just argue semantics vs provide the advice to OP? Is that helpful or useful in your view?

I think it is helpful to understand how subs work.

In your advice, you caution against too many subs because they will "overwhelm" the room. Since that will not happen, the OP has the much simpler task of calculating the SPL they want to achieve and can reduce the number of subs as needed.

 

[Oddball]

I think it is helpful to understand how subs work.

In your advice, you caution against too many subs because they will "overwhelm" the room. Since that will not happen, the OP has the much simpler task of calculating the SPL they want to achieve and can reduce the number of subs as needed.

Well many thanks, but there is much more to how subs work. Perhaps the whole storyline is warranted to make sure none go astray.

So just to simplify - OP needs less subs for its room (which we know so little of except the cft).?

 

[Curvature]

Well many thanks, but there is much more to how subs work. Perhaps the whole storyline is warranted to make sure none go astray.

So just to simplify - OP needs less subs for its room (which we know so little of except the cft).?

Here's how I think about it (after spending a lot of time reading, it is a pretty simple problem in the end, once you know what does/doesn't matter):

Hi all experts JTR sub

@sweetchaos​

I am confused about what subwoofer works best based on my room size and my listening interest
i would like to get your opinions and advice on what model to choose
JTR 4000 OR JTR RS2
My Interest is 95% movies & 5% music
room size 21 * 15.4 * 8.8 = almost 2846 cu.ft
I will be using 4 subs
my system 9.4.4
any advice or recommendation I would be grateful

4 subs makes sense if you are following the Welti/Harman approach to smoothing FR across many positions.

How much SPL do you need? JTR 4000ULF in @sweetchaos' sheet shows 122dB SPL at 20Hz (CTA-2010-A, 2m peak). Easy estimate for sub SPL: 2x the number of subs, +3dB (this number is arguably higher, but it's a good, conservative estimate). So:

• 1 JTR 4000ULF: 122dB SPL
• 2: 125dB SPL
• 4: 128dB SPL

Reduce by 3dB if you want RMS values. Reduce by 3dB per additional doubling of distance to the listening position.

Cost is about $20k USD before tax and shipping. If you can handle that and have the room, and like the way those giants look, I don't see why not. Otherwise, you can spend less and get smaller subs, if you like.

 

[Oddball]

Here's how I think about it (after spending a lot of time reading, it is a pretty simple problem in the end, once you know what does/doesn't matter):

4 subs makes sense if you are following the Welti/Harman approach to smoothing FR across many positions.

How much SPL do you need? JTR 4000ULF in @sweetchaos' sheet shows 122dB SPL at 20Hz (CTA-2010-A, 2m peak). Easy estimate for sub SPL: 2x the number of subs, +3dB (this number is arguably higher, but it's a good, conservative estimate). So:

• 1 JTR 4000ULF: 122dB SPL
• 2: 125dB SPL
• 4: 128dB SPL

Reduce by 3dB if you want RMS values. Reduce by 3dB per additional doubling of distance to the listening position.

Cost is about $20k USD before tax and shipping. If you can handle that and have the room, and like the way those giants look, I don't see why not. Otherwise, you can spend less and get smaller subs, if you like.

I think anyone who would not want the above and would find it ridiculously oversized or overpriced for the room at stake might be right. Not really sure what is the whole point of the above?

Above is just a simple SPL calculation, does not take into account the room modes and possibility to create such SPL at some frequencies that might interfere with the room correction and really get in the way of properly EQing the system.

If someone wants the power above, they should understand in much detail how it would work in their room. Smaller systems are inherently safer as they will not “overpower” the room or the budget.

 

[Curvature]

I think anyone who would not want the above and would find it ridiculously oversized or overpriced for the room at stake might be right. Not really sure what is the whole point of the above?

Above is just a simple SPL calculation, does not take into account the room modes and possibility to create such SPL at some frequencies that might interfere with the room correction and really get in the way of properly EQing the system.

If someone wants the power above, they should understand in much detail how it would work in their room. Smaller systems are inherently safer as they will not “overpower” the room or the budget.

If the OP can afford the subs and likes how they look, and wants to play "make the walls shake", it's fine. I don't think we should arbitrate how another person will spend their money. If the OP is making the mistaken assumption that small subs cannot produce sufficient bass or that very high SPLs are absolutely necessary, then we can help by explaining. But he has to ask for that first.

Regarding room modes: those are constant regardless of what sub is chosen. Even using room simulators for estimation leads to erroneous results because of phase shift introduced by walls flexing and an unknown amount of leakage and absorption vs. reflection. Using 4 subs, as the OP wants to, allows for even FR and predictable EQ. As such, the easy calculations I referenced make decisions very straightforward, and they are very reliable. Even if a person could only afford a single sub, those calculations are the least error-prone and give a good baseline of what to expect from performance. They take the CTA-2010 figures and provide them some context for your situation. It's only after buying and getting into the complications of integration that the best method shifts to measurement.

"Overpowering" the room has no acoustical sense, while "overpowering" the budget is something for the OP to decide. Too much bass never killed anyone, earthquakes aside.

 

[Jaxjax]

JBL SRX 918S new version...anyone familiar with it..? Seems like alot of control for the $
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=85c5...2F0dC0xOC1pbmNoLXBvd2VyZWQtc3Vid29vZmVy&ntb=1

 

[Oddball]

"Overpowering" the room has no acoustical sense, while "overpowering" the budget is something for the OP to decide. Too much bass never killed anyone, earthquakes aside.

While I continue to disagree or all your points and pretty shallow explanations of those, I don't think that this thread will benefit from our continuing discussion. So as the final point, you might want to consider what "overpowering" means in plain words as I could not find a common definition of what it means in "acoustical sense" as you have put it.

overpowering

1. too strong to be able to continue or resist: 2. too strong to be able to…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Best of luck in you audio endeavors.

 

[deep bass]

is it dedicated HT or living room? If not dedicated, there will be some resonance frequencies in the lower end that you will need to deal with.

Thank you very much @

Oddball @​

Curvature​

I enjoy reading your discussion of my question I am very interested that the number of subwoofers be Four
and it doesn't matter to me if it is sealed or ported
I want the best for my room size
room size 21 * 15.4 * 8.8 = almost 2846 cu.ft
my system 9.4.4
My Interest is 95% movies & 5% music
The room is totally Isolated and acoustically treated.
The floor is heavy carpet with concreated base underneath the isolated floor.

@sweetchaos​

I hope you will share your opinion on my question

 

[Curvature]

I enjoy reading your discussion of my question I am very interested that the number of subwoofers be Four

See the attached papers or read Toole's book.

What's your budget?
Do you know how you are going to measure and adjust these subs? I assume an AVR.

The determining factor here is your budget.

sealed or ported

Just to be clear, this is not important for well-designed subs.

 

[deep bass]

What's your budget?
Do you know how you are going to measure and adjust these subs? I assume an AVR.

by Anthem AVM90
Budget 21000$
JTR RS2 4799$
JTR 4000ULF 4999$
If i Purchase 4 Subwoofers receive 10% discount

 

[Curvature]

by Anthem AVM90
Budget 21000$
JTR S2 4799$
JTR 4000ULF 4999$
If i Purchase 4 Subwoofers receive 10% discount

Go for either model. You will have more bass than you'll know what to do with.

You could save money by getting the RS1, but it seems like your heart is set on earthquakes.

 

[sweetchaos]

JTR RS2 4799$
JTR 4000ULF 4999$

The footprint (W*D) of RS2 is literally half of 4000ULF. Which means that you can buy 4 RS2's for the footprint of 2 4000ULFs, assuming they are stood upright.
Seeing how your room is medium sized, I would go with 4 of RS2's.
Your room doesnt have the space for 4 of 4000ULFs.

Heck, you can stack two RS2's on top of each other (assuming they are laying horizontally), to save even more space.
I would only consider 4000ULFs, if you're planning to move to a bigger space in the near future, so that's sort of future-proofing, if you're buying them now.

Either way, after putting 4 JTR subs into your room, your room will be the weakest link, not your subs.