Room correction options that wont ruin the sound of tube amp?

[marked sound]

I am buying a 2 channel stereo system that consists of an integrated tube amplifier, and a streamer/dac that has no room correction, and speakers, where all these sound great together. My brother also has the exact same system and it sounds great both at the stereo shop and his house. The problem is that this system has no room correction, and according to people on this forum, running a system without room correction is akin to devil worship.

So the way I see it my choices are either:

#1. Skip the amp I love, and gamble with say a Lyngdorf 1120 with RoomPerfect. (Don't really want to, as the speakers I want are hard to drive and the amp I picked does it well).
#2. Get a MiniDsp and plug the amp into it (potentially throttling the sound of the tubes and negating the reason for buying that amp in the first place).
#3. Be labeled a witch and just enjoy the system as is without room correction, warts and all.
#4. Do an obvious suggestion you guys may know of that hasn't occurred to me.

Anyone with more knowledge (which I suspect is most of you), care to chime in and put me out of my misery?

Thanks

 

[ppataki]

If your source will be a streamer (and not a computer) then the only way to perform room correction is via hardware (like miniDSP or equivalent or anything that the streamer can offer)
If you use for example a Wiim product you can do pretty OK EQ-ing (for room correction) in their streamer and you can still use a tube amp - that could be a good compromise in my opinion

 

[Doodski]

Firstly what is this amp that you know and love?

 

[aedagnino]

If you like the way the tube amp sounds, why would you want to start messing with it? Buying a tube amp and building a system around it shows commitment to it. Knowing how people think about room correction here reads as you having a good understanding of what people think and what measurements have shown about tube amps in this same forum, that the best of them barely get to a THD of -60db (usually -40db), which implies a heavy amount of distortion in playback even in this best of scenarios. And that you like the way this distortion sounds. A lot of people here would (or should) tell you that if you're really interested in reducing distortion, and focusing on faithful reproduction, then change the amp! But who am I to tell you what you like or don't like?

Having said that, what's the worse that could happen? You try out room correction and you like it or don't like it. A mindsp is a good option to start with.

 

[Galliardist]

Welcome to ASR. Let's see what we can actually do to help.

The issue here is that you are buying this system (which is an unknown, as you have asked the question without details) and are putting it into a different room/environment assuming it will still sound the same. There is no guarantee that the speakers are going to work at all well in the different room, or that the amp is powerful enough if the new room is larger, or you are listening from further away. That is the first question we should really be addressing.

You may find that you prefer a neutral sound to the system you are buying, if you could compare the two blind - that is what the science tells us would happen - so you should consider alternatives to your planned setup for that reason. There is no magic to tube amps per se. They are rarely best for genuinely hard to drive speakers, by the way.

As for the DSP:

- You could use room treatments instead.

- You could use minimal correction, just to deal with bass issues in the room. and leaving everything else alone. That will not "throttle the tube amp sound", whatever that means.
The amp will still not necessarily control the speakers "correctly", and will still put out the same harmonic distortion. You may get some additional inaudible noise from the DSP, but that's all. (This is assuming that the tube amp sounds audibly different, and that is by no means certain, either).

- You could also sort out the bass in room with additional subwoofers if needed.

My system only has correction for one of three sources, and it consists entirely of one PEQ filter. I'm not going to lecture you on not running it. Nor are many others here who don't run DSP but use other methods to match to the room. It is a very good solution to a lot of problems, and maybe a necessity if you are going for the highest fidelity neutral sound, but in your case it is not necessarily an absolute requirement. I'd recommend you have a plan to incorporate it if needed.

Buying the same system for every room/environment though, I am going to call out. Let us know the speakers, amp and room setup you are putting it into, and then we can help.

Details, please.

 

[Chr1]

I use a small fanless MiniPC as my streamer with MathAudio RoomEQ, which is free for use with Foobar2000. This feeds a Topping E50 DAC, which in turn feeds either Neumann KH310s or a VTL ST-85 valve amp and Tannoy V12s. I have various RoomEQ presets for these which also integrate a couple of active subs within the two systems. The ability to use EQ, RoomEQ with the valve amplifier has been a game changer and I see no reason why you shouldn't use DSP with valves. It's been done in recording studios for many years.

 

[Doodski]

I see no reason why you shouldn't use DSP with valves. It's been done in recording studios for many years.

I can't think of a reason not to use DSP these days. The benefits are huge.

 

[DanielT]

But first. Do you have a tube amplifier that colors the sound? What brand and model is it? Some tube amps color the sound, others don't. In addition, if we talk about distortion that colors the sound, it is also individual how good or bad we are at perceiving it, or detecting it.

In any case, IF your tube amplifier colors the sound in such a way that it creates a non-straight frequency curve, then there is nothing to worry about. If you have acquired EQ equipment to tinker with your frequency curve, you can set it precisely to your liking.

IF your tube amplifier creates a sound that is colored due to distortion, then there is nothing for you to worry about either. Distortion cannot be banished from the audio chain no matter what you put into it. On the contrary, it can become more of it. All the distortion from each gadget is summed up in what you then hear in your headphones and or speakers.

If you think you have too LITTLE distortion (I don't know why you would think so), here is a plug-in to test and play with to add distortion:

PKHarmonic VST Plugin - Audiophile Harmonics Generator | Distort documentation

PKHarmonic 1.0 is the initial release of this software. Use at your own risk!

distortaudio.org

 

[JeremyFife]

I am buying a 2 channel stereo system that consists of an integrated tube amplifier, and a streamer/dac that has no room correction, and speakers, where all these sound great together. My brother also has the exact same system and it sounds great both at the stereo shop and his house. The problem is that this system has no room correction, and according to people on this forum, running a system without room correction is akin to devil worship.

So the way I see it my choices are either:

#1. Skip the amp I love, and gamble with say a Lyngdorf 1120 with RoomPerfect. (Don't really want to, as the speakers I want are hard to drive and the amp I picked does it well).
#2. Get a MiniDsp and plug the amp into it (potentially throttling the sound of the tubes and negating the reason for buying that amp in the first place).
#3. Be labeled a witch and just enjoy the system as is without room correction, warts and all.
#4. Do an obvious suggestion you guys may know of that hasn't occurred to me.

Anyone with more knowledge (which I suspect is most of you), care to chime in and put me out of my misery?

Thanks

Hi,
This is a hobby, and it's your system ... if you like the way it sounds then that's brilliant - enjoy it
Don't let anybody else tell you that you 'need' to anything

The value of this place (imho) is that if, further down the line, you want to objectively understand your system and what changes could be beneficial then this is one of the very (very) few places that can help.

Being able to separate audio fiction (tubes are magic) from objective engineering (well designed components do not change the signal) and hard audio truths (what matters is your speakers *in your room*) is massively liberating.
Having that knowledge allows you to follow your personal preferences knowing that you are doing that, not chasing a magic rabbit down an "audiophile" hole - and wasting huge amounts of money in the process.

Take some time, read and listen and learn. But above all, enjoy the music!

 

[Galliardist]

Hi,
This is a hobby, and it's your system ... if you like the way it sounds then that's brilliant - enjoy it
Don't let anybody else tell you that you 'need' to anything

The value of this place (imho) is that if, further down the line, you want to objectively understand your system and what changes could be beneficial then this is one of the very (very) few places that can help.

Being able to separate audio fiction (tubes are magic) from objective engineering (well designed components do not change the signal) and hard audio truths (what matters is your speakers *in your room*) is massively liberating.
Having that knowledge allows you to follow your personal preferences knowing that you are doing that, not chasing a magic rabbit down an "audiophile" hole - and wasting huge amounts of money in the process.

Take some time, read and listen and learn. But above all, enjoy the music!

Great answer.
As I read the question, the system has not yet been bought, but is proposed to be identical to another system. So there is scope to advise. We don't know the system though...

 

[JeremyFife]

Reading back, I've also realised that this is a prospective purchase, not a question about an existing system (although OP's brother has this).

If that's the case, and OP has come this far already - it makes a lot of sense to post details of the system here for comment. Be ready for *comment* though

One statement concerned me slightly: "the speakers I want are hard to drive and the amp I picked does it well". I'd want to explore that as it does sound like sales-speak.

 

[Sokel]

Reading back, I've also realised that this is a prospective purchase, not a question about an existing system (although OP's brother has this).

If that's the case, and OP has come this far already - it makes a lot of sense to post details of the system here for comment. Be ready for *comment* though

One statement concerned me slightly: "the speakers I want are hard to drive and the amp I picked does it well". I'd want to explore that as it does sound like sales-speak.

Probably impedance falls low at some point and some advice as usually Amir does with such or someone else has told him so.
(unless they are ESL's or something as notorious)

 

[A Surfer]

As others have so eloquently noted, without specific information to guide feedback, the community is actually at a disadvantage.

It also sounds like you are assuming a problem will exist with the room. In all fairness though, the vast majority of rooms do introduce issues, but that does not necessarily mean the issues will be problematic for you.

If you are determined that this is the gear that you want and are getting it anyway, try and see how you enjoy it before assuming that you will have to fix things due to the room.

Quite frankly not everyone cares as much as others do so perhaps you won't have a problem worth your time. Worry about a problem causes the problem to be experienced as more pressing than it is.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

All that matters is that you like your sound. Some like accuracy, some like other sound profiles, and it's fine either way.

Get a MiniDsp and plug the amp into it (potentially throttling the sound of the tubes and negating the reason for buying that amp in the first place).

The amp will do its amp thing on any signal fed to it. So minidsp-->amp won't change the sound of the amp. It will change the signal in whatever ways you change the signal. So if you have a big room mode boosting at 50hz, and bring that down in dsp, that's the only thing that will change. Less volume at 50.

If you like the system, and have heard it in two locations, I think you can safely go for it. Fix it later if you find issues getting in the way of enjoyment.

BTW, I turn off EQ below ~70db/1m, because my room sounds good at those levels (58db at the couch, btw, so not loud). I use EQ to keep it sounding that way as the volume gets turned up. Mostly to keep the bass clear and not muddy. The sound at 80db with EQ (a typical volume for me) and 70db without EQ are pretty similar to my ear.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

You can use a tube amplifier and a streamer / DAC and also not run DSP. It's up to you.

If the DAC can take USB from a laptop, you can always experiment with room correction for free using EAPO. That way, you can see if the benefits are worth the effort for you in your circumstances.

 

[Gorgonzola]

I endorse the use of Foobar2000 together with MathAudio Room EQ; both are free, easy to use, and work extremely well. Read the MathAudio blur to understand the functionality. You will need an appropriate, calibrated microphone such as the UMIK-1 or -2 for correct results.

The "musical", "organic", etc. qualities of you tube amp won't be lost using MA Room EQ or any good DSP. The particular qualities of the tube amp (in general) come from their distortion characteristics. Tube amps are typically high in 2nd & 3rd order harmonic distortions that are primarily responsible for the "tube sound".

 

[raindance]

A tube amp that can drive hard to drive speakers... Hahahahahahaha!!!

 

[Chr1]

Depends on the tube amp and speakers obviously. There's certainly a lot of wee Class D amps that struggle with difficult speakers too. Subs always recommended. Bass needs power... Basic Audio 101 surely.

 

[kemmler3D]

@Pareto Pragmatic was the first to offer what I think is the correct answer in this thread: there is no reason not to use DSP with a tube amp, the amp doesn't care, and whatever "audible benefits" you get from the tube amp will stil be there, independent of the effect the DSP has.

DSP is really helpful for cleaning up the bass in almost any room. It's one of the best bang-for-buck upgrades you can do.

Whatever character the tube amp has will not be diminished if you do this, the real question is what box you'd like to add to the system to do it, some good suggestions ITT already.

 

[krabapple]

I am buying a 2 channel stereo system that consists of an integrated tube amplifier, and a streamer/dac that has no room correction, and speakers, where all these sound great together. My brother also has the exact same system and it sounds great both at the stereo shop and his house. The problem is that this system has no room correction, and according to people on this forum, running a system without room correction is akin to devil worship.

Well, no, that's a wild exaggeration.

If you like how your system sounds, keep doing what you're doing.

If you want to hear what doing room correction would sound like, add a DSP device that does it (like the miniDSP) between your streamer and your beloved distortion-introducing device (your BDDD, aka your tube amp). The DSP won't 'throttle the sound' of your BDDDif you put it before your BDDD in the chain. The final link in your chain would be from BDDD to speakers, all analog. So all that lovely distortion would still be there as the delicious icing on top:

streamer --> DSP --> toobs, man -->speakers