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Room correction options that wont ruin the sound of tube amp?

If possible, do room correction without the tubes involved. That way you don't cancel out the tube sound signature.

That's what I did with my Freya+ at least.... but that's a preamp not an amp. Need to know more about your system.
 
I have a tube amp which I use sometimes. I have 2 dirac corrections, one for solid state and one done with the amp in place. Sometimes I just run the SS correction and tweak the tone a bit based on the expected interaction of the speaker's impedance response with the amp (reduce bass, increase treble, both by ~2B). Sometimes I run the full "corrected for tube" response. I probably should run dirac again with the tube amp, as I have changed from KT120s to KT88s. I don't think the response will change much though, that will mainly be determined by the amps output impedance and speaker impedance curve.
 
I am buying a 2 channel stereo system that consists of an integrated tube amplifier, and a streamer/dac that has no room correction, and speakers, where all these sound great together. My brother also has the exact same system and it sounds great both at the stereo shop and his house. The problem is that this system has no room correction, and according to people on this forum, running a system without room correction is akin to devil worship.

So the way I see it my choices are either:

#1. Skip the amp I love, and gamble with say a Lyngdorf 1120 with RoomPerfect. (Don't really want to, as the speakers I want are hard to drive and the amp I picked does it well).
#2. Get a MiniDsp and plug the amp into it (potentially throttling the sound of the tubes and negating the reason for buying that amp in the first place).
#3. Be labeled a witch and just enjoy the system as is without room correction, warts and all.
#4. Do an obvious suggestion you guys may know of that hasn't occurred to me.

Anyone with more knowledge (which I suspect is most of you), care to chime in and put me out of my misery?

Thanks
I consider tubes more the devil worship thing :) Experiment and see what you prefer....
 
My brother also has the exact same system and it sounds great both at the stereo shop and his house.
I have a question, IF the amps sound great, why are you adding room correction or DSP.. You didn't say it sounded bad, or noisy, or even OK, you
said it sounded GREAT.

You lost me, it's not hard to do, but you did, you lost me. Leave it alone and enjoy the GREAT sound. If you really want to spend money on a much
better solution, try speaker placement, where you set or mechanical treatment first. Add DSP AFTER. You probably won't need to use DSP on a stereo anyway.
I sure don't. Oddball room dimensions, and limited placement is the only reason I would be using anything on a stereo.

HT is a different thing. BUT I'm not into sound effects either. I still prefer a stereo system. 2 mains, 4-6 subs, and a pair of bass columns, that image
a center bass phantom along with the center phantom from the mains. I'm just a caveman in my khaki slacks. :)

Regards
 
I am buying a 2 channel stereo system that consists of an integrated tube amplifier, and a streamer/dac that has no room correction, and speakers, where all these sound great together. My brother also has the exact same system and it sounds great both at the stereo shop and his house. The problem is that this system has no room correction, and according to people on this forum, running a system without room correction is akin to devil worship.

Just do what makes you happy.

Room correction is not for me either.
 
I am buying a 2 channel stereo system that consists of an integrated tube amplifier, and a streamer/dac that has no room correction, and speakers, where all these sound great together. My brother also has the exact same system and it sounds great both at the stereo shop and his house. The problem is that this system has no room correction, and according to people on this forum, running a system without room correction is akin to devil worship.
Anecdotally... my 2 channel system while not currently tube based was 100% analog, class A amps etc. A few months ago I swapped out my analog preamp and digital streamer with a Lyngdorf MP-40 which I used as a 2 channel preamp. I was able to balance the levels carefully and performed an ABX comparison between the analog system and Lyngdorf both playing the same digital files. I could not hear any difference. The Lyngdorf was 100% transparent.

Of course the ABX test was without RoomPerfect. After the testing I ran RoomPerfect and yes, adding room correction my system sounds even better.
 
Firstly what is this amp that you know and love?
I tested out 3 amps that got good reviews. The Hegel H600 ($12,000 USD) which is a solid state integrated amp with a built in dac. The Unison Research Unico 150 ($6,999 USD) which is strictly a multi tube integrated amp with no digital components at all. Then I tested the Advance Paris A12 Classic ($3,800 usd) which is an integrated tube hybrid amp. The A12 blew the other 2 away when doing an a/b, so that is the one I am going with. This amp's nickname in some of the audio communities is called "the McIntosh killer" because it's apparently McIntosh sound for a fraction of the price. I am not paying attention to any of that, only my ears. And my ears were blown away!
 
If you like the way the tube amp sounds, why would you want to start messing with it? Buying a tube amp and building a system around it shows commitment to it. Knowing how people think about room correction here reads as you having a good understanding of what people think and what measurements have shown about tube amps in this same forum, that the best of them barely get to a THD of -60db (usually -40db), which implies a heavy amount of distortion in playback even in this best of scenarios. And that you like the way this distortion sounds. A lot of people here would (or should) tell you that if you're really interested in reducing distortion, and focusing on faithful reproduction, then change the amp! But who am I to tell you what you like or don't like?

Having said that, what's the worse that could happen? You try out room correction and you like it or don't like it. A mindsp is a good option to start with.
Truth be told I wasn't planning on buying anything. I merely was accompanying my brother to help him make audio purchases. To me spending $20,000 on audio equipment was a little extreme. Key word is "was". I heard 3 different integrated amps that varied greatly in design. I listened to a solid state amp with built in dac (Hegel H600). A purely analog integrated tube amp (Unico 150). Then I listened to an integrated tube hybrid (Advance Paris A12). Listening to the the A12 made me feel things I have never felt before. It was truly magical. All of that "this is too much" got thrown out the window. I don't know if getting around $20,000 worth of just 2 speakers, amp, and dac (not even subs yet), classifies me as an audiophile, but I don't care. I heard what I heard and that's all I can think about right now. I can't wait to have that system in my home.

Perhaps tube amps add some distortion. Maybe its like that sleazy blonde you see in the bar drenched in intoxicating perfume, with loads of makeup, with her booobs popping out of her overly tight fitted shirt. Perhaps there are more sensible options. However this was love at first sight... er I mean listen. And I listened to the system enough to know I wont wake up with hangover asking myself "what was I thinking". I have owned other audio systems before. Rotel amps and pre amps. More expensive polk audio speakers (not best buy specials). Marantz 9.2 receiver. Boston Accoustic speakers, Definitive Technology speakers, various Yamaha receivers, but nothing like this. Whole other level.
 
However this was love at first sight... er I mean listen.
And there is nothing wrong with that! If you love it then you win... it may or may not win or even stand out in a double blind test, but who cares, we are talking love here, not a cure for some disease.

That said, I think you might enjoy adding a streamer with room correction/DSP. Assuming your room is decent, you may find the benefits minimal, but it is nice to have the ability to correct issues that real rooms can cause. If your room is less than ideal then having a DSP in there will make an even bigger difference.
 
What you need and want matters the most, irrespective of other opinions. Consider others but...your ears, your money, and your system!

A good AD/DA system will not alter the sound of a tube amp. Consider RME ADI-2 Pro FS, it can AD/DA @DSD rates and has variable loudness (like yamaha), Equalizer, and a 7 band PEQ. RME gives multitude of options to both AD and DA stages. I have used miniDSP SHD with Dirac and I currently have an Integra DRX-8.4 with Full range Dirac and DLBC. I switched to RME for stereo and I am very happy.

1. Invest a bit into good room treatments (hire someone locally to make them with Rockwool)

2. A sophisticated AD/DA (like RME) and a PEQ.
(With REW, above two methods are enough to fix many issues in room you can also go the convolution route but imho not needed and much less needed is Dirac)

I have used Dirac and DLBC and I'm having buyers remorse and I think that they're not worth it. If you must have subs to fix room issues then get a 2x Rythmik 12inch servo subs and align them manually.

Plenty you can do but one thing after another.. it's a process, unless you're a multi millionaire who can afford to build dedicated space and hire pros...it is not gonna happen in a day.
 
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Welcome to ASR. Let's see what we can actually do to help.

The issue here is that you are buying this system (which is an unknown, as you have asked the question without details) and are putting it into a different room/environment assuming it will still sound the same. There is no guarantee that the speakers are going to work at all well in the different room, or that the amp is powerful enough if the new room is larger, or you are listening from further away. That is the first question we should really be addressing.

You may find that you prefer a neutral sound to the system you are buying, if you could compare the two blind - that is what the science tells us would happen - so you should consider alternatives to your planned setup for that reason. There is no magic to tube amps per se. They are rarely best for genuinely hard to drive speakers, by the way.

As for the DSP:

- You could use room treatments instead.

- You could use minimal correction, just to deal with bass issues in the room. and leaving everything else alone. That will not "throttle the tube amp sound", whatever that means.
The amp will still not necessarily control the speakers "correctly", and will still put out the same harmonic distortion. You may get some additional inaudible noise from the DSP, but that's all. (This is assuming that the tube amp sounds audibly different, and that is by no means certain, either).

- You could also sort out the bass in room with additional subwoofers if needed.

My system only has correction for one of three sources, and it consists entirely of one PEQ filter. I'm not going to lecture you on not running it. Nor are many others here who don't run DSP but use other methods to match to the room. It is a very good solution to a lot of problems, and maybe a necessity if you are going for the highest fidelity neutral sound, but in your case it is not necessarily an absolute requirement. I'd recommend you have a plan to incorporate it if needed.

Buying the same system for every room/environment though, I am going to call out. Let us know the speakers, amp and room setup you are putting it into, and then we can help.

Details, please.
The amp I am planning to buy is an Advance Paris A12 integrated hybrid tube amp. I a/b'd this amp with others, including a Hegel A600, a Unico 150, And an amp from Electrocompaniet, and the A12 stole the show. Various speakers were auditioned as well but in the end I am going with a pair of Q Acoustic Concept 500. The dac I plan on going with is an EverSolo DMP-A8. Yes I know the new DMP A-10 has room correction but it uses Ess chips. I know you could throw a ton of sound measurements at me to say that so called "sabre glare" is a myth, I just like the way the AKM chips sound. If I do decide to get subs, they most likely will be an SVS sub. Perhaps there is one with room correction built in. I know the Paradigm Persona 9H speakers, (way out of my price range) have built in room correction. If I was going to spend that kind of money on speakers I would just search for a pair of Revel Salon 2's and some Mark Levinson amps and call it a day. I mean one of my kidneys has to be worth something right? If we are going to get ridiculous lets get ridiculous! :D

As for my room, its 12ft (144") by 10.5ft (126") feet roughly 9.5ft (114") high. The room is basically 4 walls with one wall opening to the dining room. The opening to the dining room is 5.5ft (66") wide by 7 ft (84") tall. So there will be approximately 2.5 ft of wall all around the opening. Wish I had pics but I don't right now. Walls feel pretty solid and not hollow when knocking on them. I plan on having my speakers anywhere from 1 foot to 2 feet from the wall. These speakers are rear ported and it was noted that the closer they are to the wall the bass-ier they sound. That might come in handy if I choose not to get subs right away. The speakers are 45.3", 7.8" wide, and 13.8" deep. This means if I position the speakers 2 feet from the wall, that will make the front of the speaker 38 inches from the front wall, and about 5.41ft (65") from the front edge of my couch and 7.3ft (88") from my ear. Thats the closest the speakers will be to my ears. It could be further yet if i chose to move the speakers closer to he wall.

Thanks for reading. Hope that helped.
 
I use a small fanless MiniPC as my streamer with MathAudio RoomEQ, which is free for use with Foobar2000. This feeds a Topping E50 DAC, which in turn feeds either Neumann KH310s or a VTL ST-85 valve amp and Tannoy V12s. I have various RoomEQ presets for these which also integrate a couple of active subs within the two systems. The ability to use EQ, RoomEQ with the valve amplifier has been a game changer and I see no reason why you shouldn't use DSP with valves. It's been done in recording studios for many years.
Wow thanks for the advice! I will look into it. How do you control your streamer on your PC remotely, if you don't mind me asking?
 
Great answer.
As I read the question, the system has not yet been bought, but is proposed to be identical to another system. So there is scope to advise. We don't know the system though...
Q Acoustics Concept 500 Speakers. Advance Paris A-12 integrated amp. Not sure on the dac yet. Was going to go with a EverSolo DMP A-8, however others are suggesting using a pc with room correction. Subs will come if and when I need them and likely an SVS of some sort.
 
Reading back, I've also realised that this is a prospective purchase, not a question about an existing system (although OP's brother has this).

If that's the case, and OP has come this far already - it makes a lot of sense to post details of the system here for comment. Be ready for *comment* though :)

One statement concerned me slightly: "the speakers I want are hard to drive and the amp I picked does it well". I'd want to explore that as it does sound like sales-speak.
Not sales speak as I went through several high end amplifiers before finding one that worked well with those speakers.
 
All that matters is that you like your sound. Some like accuracy, some like other sound profiles, and it's fine either way.


The amp will do its amp thing on any signal fed to it. So minidsp-->amp won't change the sound of the amp. It will change the signal in whatever ways you change the signal. So if you have a big room mode boosting at 50hz, and bring that down in dsp, that's the only thing that will change. Less volume at 50.

If you like the system, and have heard it in two locations, I think you can safely go for it. Fix it later if you find issues getting in the way of enjoyment.

BTW, I turn off EQ below ~70db/1m, because my room sounds good at those levels (58db at the couch, btw, so not loud). I use EQ to keep it sounding that way as the volume gets turned up. Mostly to keep the bass clear and not muddy. The sound at 80db with EQ (a typical volume for me) and 70db without EQ are pretty similar to my ear.
Good advice. I have to learn all this stuff. I will post another thread once I get the gear and have listened extensively to it in my space.
 
I endorse the use of Foobar2000 together with MathAudio Room EQ; both are free, easy to use, and work extremely well. Read the MathAudio blur to understand the functionality. You will need an appropriate, calibrated microphone such as the UMIK-1 or -2 for correct results.

The "musical", "organic", etc. qualities of you tube amp won't be lost using MA Room EQ or any good DSP. The particular qualities of the tube amp (in general) come from their distortion characteristics. Tube amps are typically high in 2nd & 3rd order harmonic distortions that are primarily responsible for the "tube sound".
Thanks for the advice.
 
Well, no, that's a wild exaggeration.

If you like how your system sounds, keep doing what you're doing.

If you want to hear what doing room correction would sound like, add a DSP device that does it (like the miniDSP) between your streamer and your beloved distortion-introducing device (your BDDD, aka your tube amp). The DSP won't 'throttle the sound' of your BDDDif you put it before your BDDD in the chain. The final link in your chain would be from BDDD to speakers, all analog. So all that lovely distortion would still be there as the delicious icing on top:

streamer --> DSP --> toobs, man -->speakers
That icing is delicious indeed. At least according to my ears.
 
If possible, do room correction without the tubes involved. That way you don't cancel out the tube sound signature.

That's what I did with my Freya+ at least.... but that's a preamp not an amp. Need to know more about your system.
Advance Paris A12 integrated amp. Q Acoustic concept 500 speakers.
 
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