Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

[Doodski]

I don't see at all why it matters at all if the amplifiers go into some kind of protection mode with high levels of pink noise or a sine wave.

The specification denotes that it is not musical power testing. So if it can't output the power according to the manufacturer's specification then the buyer is not receiving what they are paying for. Don't know about where you are at but in Canada it is illegal to expense a purchaser for a product or service and not provide that as per the specifications or agreement.

 

[BJL]

The specification denotes that it is not musical power testing. So if it can't output the power according to the manufacturer's specification then the buyer is not receiving what they are paying for. Don't know about where you are at but in Canada it is illegal to expense a purchaser for a product or service and not provide that as per the specifications or agreement.

Sorry, I was writing too hastily when I wrote that "I don't see why it matters ..." etc. What meant is, that I would be more interested to know when or if the "nanny" protective activates in the context of a music signal. I am certainly sympathetic to the consumer protection issue re the published specs, Onkyo should not publish specs that the equipment doesn't meet, I just don't particularly care about them because I do not listen to sine waves or pink noise and I do not take those specs seriously when I make a purchase, because I never believe the manufacturers' claims (buy with a return privilege, natch).

I do appreciate the objective measurements made with test signals, but I would appreciate the objective evaluation much more, if the measurements were ALSO made with a standardized music signal, as that would better reflect the actual application of the AVR, for those us that listen to music, as opposed to sine waves (which I suspect is everyone).

 

[Vovgan]

Never use the "4 ohm" setting in AVRs as that definitely cuts down power to pass UL heat testing.

I use Denon 6500 AVR as processor only and setting it to 4 Ohms dramatically reduces the heat of amps (from 63C to 43C) while not changing the preouts power.

 

[amirm]

If they lower the rail voltage, the power amp will clip sooner, and the preout SINAD would likely drop quickly like the Denon AVRs did in your measurements on them.

The Pioneer's preout SINAD remained high during the pull back, so I think Doodski's is more likely right, that the limit is done on the input signal to the power amp, effectively lowering/limiting the gain, instead of the rail voltage.

We are just guessing though.

The amp *is* clipping earlier. If you just changed the volume, that would not happen.

 

[amirm]

I use Denon 6500 AVR as processor only and setting it to 4 Ohms dramatically reduces the heat of amps (from 63C to 43C) while not changing the preouts power.

It is lowering the output power by lowering the rail voltages and with it, idle losses.

 

[Doodski]

I am certainly sympathetic to the consumer protection issue re the published specs, Onkyo should not publish specs that the equipment doesn't meet, I just don't particularly care about them because I do not listen to sine waves or pink noise and I do not take those specs seriously when I make a purchase, because I never believe the manufacturers' claims (buy with a return privilege, natch).

The sine wave testing and ratings are industry wide global standards for rating amps. You should care because this is how it is done and has been done for 40'ish years or so.

I do appreciate the objective measurements made with test signals, but I would appreciate the objective evaluation much more, if the measurements were ALSO made with a standardized music signal, as that would better reflect the actual application of the AVR, for those us that listen to music, as opposed to sine waves (which I suspect is everyone).

Musical waveforms are unpredictable and not repeatable in test and measurement terms and that is why sine waves are used.

 

[peng]

The amp *is* clipping earlier. If you just changed the volume, that would not happen.

Thank you, I missed that!
If you suspect that might have been the reason pre out SINAD remained at >90 dB, then may be next time you get a Denon, measure its pre out at >= 2V in non preamp mode but manually turn ECO on. We know ECO on also reduce the rail voltage.

 

[peng]

The typical sound is not constant level, perhaps every dip below some threshold resets the timer and it’s not really an issue with real audio material and listening levels, even with inefficient speakers? Continuous output above 44W for 35 seconds is not very realistic, but perhaps not impossible.

As Amir said, we don't know enough. Someone can do more test on the output vs time to find out if it is a binary scenario, or there is a inverse output/time characteristic. Until then, I would tend to think you are right that, realistically it likely won't be an issue for a lot of users but for some, because of their listening habit, other components specs, and distance it may be an issue. Amir is very reasonably to suggest that Onkyo should let the user know of this feature (manual, product sheet etc.) and include an indicator such as via a led, onscreen display etc., when the "pull back" occurred so the user can power cycle the unit, otherwise for the rest of the session the user may be losing dynamic impacts without knowing, or just left wondering, though in the former case, what one don't know may not hurt either.

 

[ivo.f.doma]

That's exactly what I asked the owners of Onkyo, Integra Pioneer, Elite to try it in practice with a noise or frequency generator. Nothing prevents you from observing the PC interface for 30 seconds and seeing if anything changes.

 

[peng]

That's exactly what I asked the owners of Onkyo, Integra Pioneer, Elite to try it in practice with a noise or frequency generator. Nothing prevents you from observing the PC interface for 30 seconds and seeing if anything changes.

Yes, I wish an owner will do such tests too, but I am curious to know what new information are we going to get though. Amir did it with load and the unit only went into limiting, not "protect" mode, so if an owner does it with no load, there would be little chance to get the unit to go into protect mode, because at very high pre out voltage the unit would just go into limiting, presumably, as it did to Amir. Though again, no harm trying to do something by owners. If I had one I would do it for sure.

I had done tests using REW's noise and sine wave generator and measured the pre out of my AVR-X4400H and Marantz AV8801. In both cased, I couldn't get the unit to shutdown, or "limiting" at pre out voltage reaching almost 6 V. I am quite sure the Onkyo or Pioneer would behave in similar way.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

Yes, I wish an owner will do such tests too, but I am curious to know what new information are we going to get though. Amir did it with load and the unit only went into limiting, not "protect" mode, so if an owner does it with no load, there would be little chance to get the unit to go into protect mode, because at very high pre out voltage the unit would just go into limiting, presumably, as it did to Amir. Though again, no harm trying to do something by owners. If I had one I would do it for sure.

I had done tests using REW's noise and sine wave generator and measured the pre out of my AVR-X4400H and Marantz AV8801. In both cased, I couldn't get the unit to shutdown, or "limiting" at pre out voltage reaching almost 6 V. I am quite sure the Onkyo or Pioneer would behave in similar way.

My Pioneer VSX-LX503 completely shuts down under those conditions.

 

[BJL]

The sine wave testing and ratings are industry wide global standards for rating amps. You should care because this is how it is done and has been done for 40'ish years or so.

Musical waveforms are unpredictable and not repeatable in test and measurement terms and that is why sine waves are used.

Yes, I know this has been the standard for decades, I just don't find those ratings to be particularly helpful as my interest is in how music is reproduced. To me, the published specs are more akin to marketing. I appreciate that testing using a music file might be difficult, but I am certain that a standardized music track could be devised and used if industry was willing or interested, especially now that we are in the age of digital audio. As a consumer, my response to these marketing specs is to buy and return (since the days of audio shops giving loaners is generally speaking over). When I realized that I would have to use an AVR as a pre-processor (because of the high cost of dedicated pre-pros), I simply bought three of them based on features, and returned two. Perhaps some day the audio industry will establish a procedure to determine and publish honest specifications that actually measure performance of music reproduction. Then it will be possible to more easily select a product based on the published information.

 

[Doodski]

Yes, I know this has been the standard for decades, I just don't find those ratings to be particularly helpful as my interest is in how music is reproduced. To me, the published specs are more akin to marketing. I appreciate that testing using a music file might be difficult, but I am certain that a standardized music track could be devised and used if industry was willing or interested, especially now that we are in the age of digital audio. As a consumer, my response to these marketing specs is to buy and return (since the days of audio shops giving loaners is generally speaking over). When I realized that I would have to use an AVR as a pre-processor (because of the high cost of dedicated pre-pros), I simply bought three of them based on features, and returned two. Perhaps some day the audio industry will establish a procedure to determine and publish honest specifications that actually measure performance of music reproduction. Then it will be possible to more easily select a product based on the published information.

You're not making sense.

 

[peng]

My Pioneer VSX-LX503 completely shuts down under those conditions.

I didn't know you were talking the LX503. That's an older model, the LX505 must have upgraded nannies.

 

[Rottmannash]

You're not making sense.

If I may...I believe he is stating there should be a way to create a music file that stresses am amplifier to its limits instead of sine waves and that such file could be used by every amp manufacturer to measure power. Not sure that's possible but I think that's what he's trying to say.

 

[Geoflux]

Tested my lx505 with pink noise and a 50hz sin wave for about 15min with no speakers or preouts connected.

Web interface never showed protection engaged. No idea about the nanny circuit.

 

[Doodski]

If I may...I believe he is stating there should be a way to create a music file that stresses am amplifier to its limits instead of sine waves and that such file could be used by every amp manufacturer to measure power. Not sure that's possible but I think that's what he's trying to say.

That's exactly what he is saying. But it's just not feasible. It's too random and disorganized for test and measurement purposes otherwise we would be doing that already.

 

[Rottmannash]

Tested my lx505 with pink noise and a 50hz sin wave for about 15min with no speakers or preouts connected.

Web interface never showed protection engaged. No idea about the nanny circuit.

At.what volume level?

 

[Geoflux]

At.what volume level?

Sorry forgot to include that.

0db

 

[peng]

That's expected, as I said in post#391. Based on Amir's test, you can't get it to "protect" mode just by cranking the volume up to 0 dB or even a little higher, using input at 0 dBFS. You can, if tested with a load, such as an 8 ohm or 4 ohm load.