That's expected, as I said in post#391. Based on Amir's test, you can't get it to "protect" mode just by cranking the volume up to 0 dB or even a little higher, using input at 0 dBFS. You can, if tested with a load, such as an 8 ohm or 4 ohm load.
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Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Gotcha.
I did notice the fan turned off and temps dropped about 5 degrees during this test.
When I turn the volume to the lowest possible setting (——) the temps did go back up a little and fan back to low.
ivo.f.doma
Active Member
What does this mean?
I think I read in Amir's post while testing that he measured a good SINAD when he tested it with no load and he thought it was because the power of the power amplifier was reduced in protection mode and thus allowed a better SINAD result. I really don't understand anything anymore...
He's talking about the avr went into "power limiting", not "protect mode".
In protect mode, the unit would typically go into standby, or shutown. "Power limiting" just limit the maximum power output". That's the point Amir clarified in his subsequent posts.
To me, the power limiting thing seems similar to eco mode, in that the unit would continue to function normally, but its output will be limited to a predetermined level.
No, we just disagree. Is okay.
"Disagreeing and being adamant about using some sort of random musical waveform for measurement and calibration is absurd. Do you have any background in electronics to understand what it is you that are proposing?"
My personal background is in music, not electronics. My opinion is that the testing regimen for electronics is inadequate, that is all. I don't consider musical waveforms to be random, and that it should be possible to take a minute or two sample of music and test using that, as opposed to a sine wave. I am suggesting that the state of technology for testing electronics is inadequate, and consequently one must ultimately trust one's own ears. I am disagreeing with the notion that testing with sine waves provides an objective evaluation of audio quality. Perhaps I am incorrect, but I am not at all confused.
My personal background is in music, not electronics. My opinion is that the testing regimen for electronics is inadequate, that is all. I don't consider musical waveforms to be random, and that it should be possible to take a minute or two sample of music and test using that, as opposed to a sine wave. I am suggesting that the state of technology for testing electronics is inadequate, and consequently one must ultimately trust one's own ears. I am disagreeing with the notion that testing with sine waves provides an objective evaluation of audio quality. Perhaps I am incorrect, but I am not at all confused.
JSmith
Major Contributor
Ears are untrustworthy... stick with the data from the testing. The mysticism in audio is in the brain, not the devices... generally speaking.
On what basis though?
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JSmith
I don't think untrustworthy is the right word, I would say, difficult to quantify. For example, I had what we call in music schools, "ear training" several times, most importantly (for me) in college (undergrad) and then, at a conservatory, in grad school. My hearing and perception of music changed after conservatory ear training. What happened between college and grad school? It's not mysticism, but it is difficult to quantify.
Saying that "The mysticism in audio is in the brain ..." to me is tantamount to saying that we don't yet have a way to evaluate audio electronics that is sufficient to distinguish objectively between electronics that reproduce music optimally vs. merely adequate or subjectively pleasing. For anyone who has formal training in music it is not mystical at all, but it is challenging and difficult.
i noticed that after I started to use Dirac processing, I could hear voice leading in complex music more clearly than without Dirac. Is this mystical?
Interesting questions. This is a great forum and I learn a lot. Thank you for your comments.
But the debate is exactly about this, if power limiting does affect also preouts and especially if it can go in power limit also without any load on speaker outs. Some says that it affects while others claim that it does not.
I don't see any debate on that point though. Or did I miss something? In this review, Amir's findings showed the pre outs were not affected, at least not in a bad and visible way, if someone says "it affects..", I don't know what they meant and what supporting evidence they have. It is quite possible I missed some posts in this 21 page thread lol..
The following graph is SINAD versus Pre outs under no speaker load condition, that's exactly the condition you stated in your post, is that correct?
Based on this, I would be very happy to use the PioneerLX505 as preamp processor.
I think it is a good concept, that may happen some time in the future as some sort of supplemental tests. As it is now, testing with sine wave, and noise, usually (there are obviously exceptions, that's why there are other tests) would represent more severe tests than using music tracks. For example, you can use a music track that has very high dynamic peaks, but it is still normal enjoyable music, the high peaks will be of very short duration such that even if it results in the output voltage clipped, it would not likely result in an audible issue. If you want to make sure there is no potential of audible issues, then you can simply allow enough headroom, and that's one reason why test benches often use 2 V for pre outs if unbalanced, or 4 V, if balanced when in real world home audio systems, most people can do well with just 1 V or less. On the opposite side, if using sinewave is too severe a test that does not represent real world issues, that's better using some music tracks that while it may make the test results look good, it may not provide a good comfort level for a lot of people who want to have more than enough safe margins, to allow for the worse use case scenarios.
If the kind of music tracks you might have in mind are used, the selection of such tracks would likely be controversial to begin with, and the testing protocols would have to be developed. The developmental work and the ultimate testing protocols will naturally be much more complicated, due to the very different nature, one being that the contents will be so time variant in nature. As it is now, it is tough enough for the readers to find the standards and protocols reviewers are currently using, in order to compare all test results on apples to apples basis, imagine how much more complicated/convoluted it is going to be if sine waves and noises are swapped with preselected music tracks. In theory, anything can be done, but in my opinion, what ASR's current testing are closed to being adequate, it would be much easier to fine tune, or supplementing what's being done now, than to complicate things further by using music tracks that will bring about a whole new bunch of issues to deal with.
@BJL - Yet another good place for this reminder: http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/what-we-hear.html
Martin
Martin
ivo.f.doma
Active Member
And that's exactly what I'm talking about. I would like to use it as a partial preamplifier. And here the question arises, when I push the home theater to full power and the LCR will be external amplifiers, will the surond channels powered by Pioneer start to limit the power to 20W? If so, it is completely unusable, because the LCRs will go without limitation and the other channels driven by the receiver's amplifiers will be limited.I don't see any debate on that point though. Or did I miss something? In this review, Amir's findings showed the pre outs were not affected, at least not in a bad and visible way, if someone says "it affects..", I don't know what they meant and what supporting evidence they have. It is quite possible I missed some posts in this 21 page thread lol..
The following graph is SINAD versus Pre outs under no speaker load condition, that's exactly the condition you stated in your post, is that correct?
Based on this, I would be very happy to use the PioneerLX505 as preamp processor.
Great question! A tough one as it depends.. My guess is, based on the 35s time lapse you should be fine, but if you know your surround speakers specs including sensitivity, impedance, distances, I can try come up with a more educated guessimate based on calculations.
ivo.f.doma
Active Member
They are Bowers 707S2, sensitivity 84 dB, impedance 8 Ohm, distance 2 m.
The LRs are Bowers 705S2 with matching center...
I don't have the new AVR yet, I'm waiting for the Pioneer flagship. But for so long that I'm starting to consider 505 or RZ50 as well.
The LRs are Bowers 705S2 with matching center...
I don't have the new AVR yet, I'm waiting for the Pioneer flagship. But for so long that I'm starting to consider 505 or RZ50 as well.
What's the gain and output rating of your power amp for the lcr?
I have had some close friends that are musicians, have a college or university education in their chosen instrument and have some degree of formal introduction to electronics in a very very basic study. So I appreciate very much the dedication, discipline and perseverance required to learn to play a instrument. The thing is that the education they received in electronics was so basic and simple that they don't understand the workings of electronics as a discipline and they don't understand the math and physics behind electronics. I can only say to you that I hope you can trust my experience and education in electronics to believe that a musical waveform is the very thing that is not desired for empirical test, measurement and calibration purposes. It is simply impossible to use a musical waveform for those purposes.
Presently, I have five channels on a power amp with the Pioneer driving the four height speakers. I have not noticed anything amiss, including a couple blu-ray audio that have considerable music in the heights (not only ambience), eg. Kraftwerk "the Catalog" Yello "Point" although even in those recordings, which are fairly aggressive, the heights don't get the degree of signal as the main five. This seems to be a question without a definitive answer, especially that it has been drilled in (to me) that state of the art is running a sine wave, as pointed out by Doodski, music is highly variable. Have you ever listened to the height speakers with all other channels muted? I have, and it is mostly intermittent (no 35 second long blasts of sound) or relatively low level ambience. I do have a few recordings where the rear surrounds get as much signal as the fronts, e.g. Miles Davis Bitches Brew & Live Evil SACD quad reissues. I would suggest putting all five on an external amplifier.
I've seen this article before. I find it juvenile.
