Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

[Pio]

First off, it doesn't matter to me how they are supposed to be, rather how they sound. I want to enjoy my music, not to produce it.

Secondly, for your education, the professionals on GearSpace mostly disagree with your statement:

High end nearfield test - Gearspace.com

There is no one about them. I got that brochure asking them through their facebook.

gearspace.com

Amiram barged in with his flatness dogmas and got trashed for it. It starts around page 134. Don't attack me. It's the opinion of the folk who mix your music. The gist: for them, the best monitors are the ones that help them prepare music so it translate to most sound systems out there--even if the monitors are not perfectly flat. Intimate knowledge with the monitors and room interaction is what counts most in their view.

BTW, some claim that speakers which boost the upper lows and upper mid are preferable by most listeners.

No need to argue with me. Log in to GearSpace and make your case with them.

"professionals" .. well... they're people that definitely know their craft as to music production + mixing + mastering, etc, but they all have a preference for one brand over the other. So.. take what they say / recommend with a grain of salt.

Brands also go out of their way to get their products into the big studios, think B&W and Abbey Road, which feels like marketing to me.

Google pics for studios: Capital in LA, Criteria in Miami, AIR in London.. there's a ton of different monitors / gear, etc

My personal experience from working with a ton of producers over the past 30 + years and every studio has different gear - as I mentioned, all these guys are partial to the brands they prefer. The speakers I've seen most is the Yamaha NS-10 and the Genelec 1031A. Large format Augspurger monitors and the big Genny 1236's.

One of my best friends (consider him my brother) that works in commercial production fell in love with the Neumann 310s, he's getting a pair this year. Another imaging director who I also consider my brother uses Genny 1031's because he "knows the flaws and mixes with that in mind", he adores (and lusts for) the Focal monitors.

When it comes to creating "art" there are no right or wrong answers..

As to flatness in speakers - that comes from decades of research Harman did which lead to the creation of the industry standard for measuring speakers. Check out the attached ANSI/CEA 2034-A pdf.

Cheers!

​

 

[3125b]

It's the opinion of the folk who mix your music

Listening to modern music though at least half of them are totally incompetent. The decline in recording/mastering quality despite better technology is quite shocking. Sure, there are some positive standouts, but the biggest part of modern pop and rock (and similar genres) music just sounds terrible, even the worst monitors would reveal that.

 

[Inner Space]

As to flatness in speakers - that comes from decades of research Harman did

Well, not really. Flatness has been an implicit and explicit goal for a hundred years. As has "envelopment via room reflections", by the way - I just pulled a random 1950s book off the shelf (Focal Press, like Toole's book) and it had a section on the subject. Toole & Harman were meticulous researchers and made one especially significant contribution, and no doubt they were all lovely people, but they didn't invent the wheel.

Listening to modern music though at least half of them are totally incompetent. The decline in recording/mastering quality despite better technology is quite shocking. Sure, there are some positive standouts, but the biggest part of modern pop and rock (and similar genres) music just sounds terrible, even the worst monitors would reveal that.

Personally, and speaking as one, I think they mix mass-market music for mass-market use cases, which are now earbuds, homepods and soundbars, and generally do a great job at it. Those who turn their backs on 99.99% of the market to cater to an absurdly tiny sub-minority don't last long in the biz.

 

[Pio]

Well, not really. Flatness has been an implicit and explicit goal for a hundred years. As has "envelopment via room reflections", by the way - I just pulled a random 1950s book off the shelf (Focal Press, like Toole's book) and it had a section on the subject. Toole & Harman were meticulous researchers and made one especially significant contribution, and no doubt they were all lovely people, but they didn't invent the wheel.

Personally, and speaking as one, I think they mix mass-market music for mass-market use cases, which are now earbuds, homepods and soundbars, and generally do a great job at it. Those who turn their backs on 99.99% of the market to cater to an absurdly tiny sub-minority don't last long in the biz.

yup.. true..

 

[crukces]

Hey Amir. Thanks so much for the detailed review. I was wondering, how does the KH 420 compare to ATC SCM 50/100 ASL Pro? Could you share your experience?
I am planning to buy a new set of monitors and am stuck with the call of either buying KH420s or allocating more budget to purchase SCM 50 ASL Pro. Is it really worth paying 2 times the amount? BTW I haven't been able to listen to KH420s as they are out of stock in India and will only arrive in late March.

 

[Vintage57]

Hey Amir. Thanks so much for the detailed review. I was wondering, how does the KH 420 compare to ATC SCM 50/100 ASL Pro? Could you share your experience?
I am planning to buy a new set of monitors and am stuck with the call of either buying KH420s or allocating more budget to purchase SCM 50 ASL Pro. Is it really worth paying 2 times the amount? BTW I haven't been able to listen to KH420s as they are out of stock in India and will only arrive in late March.

Did you try the search engine?
I sold my ATC 150A’s ofter 14 years, Replaced them with 420’s 3 years ago and never looked back.
I still use ATC 50A’ for HT, not as fussy there.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Did you try the search engine?
I sold my ATC 150A’s ofter 14 years, Replaced them with 420’s 3 years ago and never looked back.
I still use ATC 50A’ for HT, not as fussy there.

Can. You compare the sound 150A to KH420? Thanks

 

[Vintage57]

Many times
Please use search engine
Thanks

 

[Frank Dernie]

My active speakers are 7 years old and still work as well as they did when new but they are DSP driven and are hardware incompatible with the latest firmware which is why I wouldn’t go with DSP built into the speaker again, My passive speakers are 25 years old and have been replaced by a different model, so probably no different really.
The main thing is they keep working as well as they ever did without updates.

An update here.
I have the original Devialet Phantom silver which required a separate box connected to the network if you wanted to use stereo or a multi room setup run from one controller.
The little separate box has stopped working so since they are early and are hardware incompatible with the latest software can now only be used in mono.

On balance yet another thing convincing me that any DSP needs to be in a separate device and favouring speakers which are good without requiring much, if any, correction outside room modes.

 

[tktran303]

No repair or replacement for little separate box? Shame…

I do dislike it when something fails on these boards. After sales Service and Support become critically important but you only realise that AFTER you purchase a product.

From lawnmower to loudspeaker I’ve learnt the hard way which brands to buy in my little town…

 

[Frank Dernie]

No repair or replacement for little separate box? Shame…

I do dislike it when something fails on these boards. After sales Service and Support become critically important but you only realise that AFTER you purchase a product.

From lawnmower to loudspeaker I’ve learnt the hard way which brands to buy in my little town…

I think the unreliability of this box was the reason they changed the Phantoms to no longer need it.

 

[tktran303]

Perhaps It’s not a case of requiring separate DSP to the product then.

It’s the case then you’ve paid the “early adopter tax”

Technology adoption life cycle - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I had the same issue recently when I accidentally destroyed one transducer out of a pair. When I asked to purchase a replacement there was no such product available. 12 months later it was already replaced by revised product and an exact replacement was no longer available. So the 2nd speaker was orphaned.

On the other hand, when an amplifier with integrated DSP died, long after the warranty had expired. I pulled it out and sent it back to the distributor base for service. Only 2400 miles as the crow flies across the continent. I was billed 1 hour for labour for troubleshooting and repair and parts dead capacitor)

This is a professional product by TC Electronic. 24/96KHz DSP amplifier introduced circa 2002 but repaired in 2015.

 

[thecheapseats]

wow... I'm pleasantly surprised to read Amir's reviews of thing(s) I actually own and use - these Neumann 420(s) as well as other stuff (Genelecs - Benchmark dacs - a few other things)... so "thanks" Amir... these current 420(s) are my fourth pair of Klein+Hummels (now Neumann) going back over four decades... my original o92 pair are still working...

 

[outfaced]

wow... I'm pleasantly surprised to read Amir's reviews of thing(s) I actually own and use - these Neumann 420(s) as well as other stuff (Genelecs - Benchmark dacs - a few other things)... so "thanks" Amir... these current 420(s) are my fourth pair of Klein+Hummels (now Neumann) going back over four decades... my original o92 pair are still working...

can you make a comparison to some similar Genelecs and what is in your oppinion better on Neumann?

 

[dfuller]

can you make a comparison to some similar Genelecs and what is in your oppinion better on Neumann?

Neumanns tend to be a *touch* darker (though I don't think dark is the right way to describe them, just Genelecs trend somewhat bright) and the mids generally sound a bit more... I guess "real" is the word I'd use but that's a bad descriptor.

 

[Pio]

can you make a comparison to some similar Genelecs and what is in your oppinion better on Neumann?

Attached is a screenshot of the listening window between these 2 from spinorama.org https://www.spinorama.org/ These monitors were engineered with the same goals in mind and would probably be hard to tell apart in an A/B comparison the same room at the same listening levels..

The dimensions and acoustics of the room they're in will be more influential on how they sound and their frequency response. Spin 420 v 8361

 

[LTig]

Attached is a screenshot of the listening window between these 2 from spinorama.org https://www.spinorama.org/ These monitors were engineered with the same goals in mind and would probably be hard to tell apart in an A/B comparison the same room at the same listening levels..

I think the bump in directivity between 1.5 and 3 kHz (2-3 dB higher for the KH420) is audible as this is the range where the human hearing is most sensitive.

 

[thecheapseats]

can you make a comparison to some similar Genelecs and what is in your oppinion better on Neumann?

a comparison?... no not really - as they are both fine tools I use for a purpose (pro audio applications)... very different from listening for pleasure/entertainment)...

 

[NMixes]

Is anyone using adjustable height stands wit the 420s?

 

[Hexspa]

Attached is a screenshot of the listening window between these 2 from spinorama.org https://www.spinorama.org/ These monitors were engineered with the same goals in mind and would probably be hard to tell apart in an A/B comparison the same room at the same listening levels..

The dimensions and acoustics of the room they're in will be more influential on how they sound and their frequency response. Spin 420 v 8361

The elevated treble (I guess it’s actually just more depressed in the Neumann) from 7kHz up is probably also noticeable depending on a few factors. Not sure if this measurement was taken after Amir fixed the mic cage interference. One of the factors is listening distance since air will absorb some of those high frequencies also; hearing loss and listening skill being the others.