Marantz Cinema 70s as a pre-pro

[techsamurai]

I can only imagine that having decided to differentiate by having full pre-outs in the Cinema series they're then trying to avoid putting XT32 into the lower end (i.e. lower amp power/channel count) devices, otherwise dealers would sell the low end device and external power amps. The SR6011 would be a bargain if it was still available.

Well, that would be true if accoustic correction was the only difference between the models. Usually, the higher-end models use more expensive DACs as we see with the Aventage A4A, A6A, and A8A in addition to having more power.

However, it appears that Marantz is very hush hush about the DACs they use and their specs suggest that many Cinema AVRs use the same DAC including some Denon models. We don't know what it is but I'm sure someone will figure it out. Or their specs for the models may be false...

 

[ban25]

Well, that would be true if accoustic correction was the only difference between the models. Usually, the higher-end models use more expensive DACs as we see with the Aventage A4A, A6A, and A8A in addition to having more power.

However, it appears that Marantz is very hush hush about the DACs they use and their specs suggest that many Cinema AVRs use the same DAC including some Denon models. We don't know what it is but I'm sure someone will figure it out. Or their specs for the models may be false...

D+M has historically used the same DACs throughout their entire line with the exception of the very top product, and even then, they replaced the AKM DAC in the Denon X8500HA with the TI PCM5102. The Denon X6700H also had the PCM DAC post-fire. I fully expect all Marantz AVRs from Cinema 70s to Cinema 30 to use the same DAC, with only the separates being different. Same with Denon's lineup with the exception of the A1H.

 

[techsamurai]

D+M has historically used the same DACs throughout their entire line with the exception of the very top product, and even then, they replaced the AKM DAC in the Denon X8500HA with the TI PCM5102. The Denon X6700H also had the PCM DAC post-fire. I fully expect all Marantz AVRs from Cinema 70s to Cinema 30 to use the same DAC, with only the separates being different. Same with Denon's lineup with the exception of the A1H.

That's nuts unless DACs have zero impact on sound quality. That'd be akin to the B&W 600 having the same crossover parts as the 8 times more expensive B&W 800.

What about the ultra affordable models like the Denon AVR-S570BT? Do they have the same DAC as the Cinema 50 or 7015 which go for $2,500 to $3,000?

 

[ban25]

That's nuts unless DACs have zero impact on sound quality. That'd be akin to the B&W 600 having the same crossover parts as the 8 times more expensive B&W 800.

What about the ultra affordable models like the Denon AVR-S570BT? Do they have the same DAC as the Cinema 50 or 7015 which go for $2,500 to $3,000?

In a true blind comparison, there's a good chance the DACs are completely indistinguishable. The primary points of differentiation across the D+M product line seem to be:

1) Channel count
2) Amplification
3) Build quality (Cinema 40 / X4800H and up being built in Shirakawa with higher quality materials/finishes)
4) Software (Room Correction, potentially some codecs like Auro3D and DTS X Pro)

If you think about it, amortizing the development cost of the PCB (DAC, ADC, HDMI, etc.) across the vast majority of the product line makes a lot of sense (with the exception of the top-end where the price is 2x the next tier down), especially since the higher-end products like Cinema 30 / X6800H and Cinema 40 / X4800H are going to be lower volume than their less costly stablemates.

 

[techsamurai]

In a true blind comparison, there's a good chance the DACs are completely indistinguishable. The primary points of differentiation across the D+M product line seem to be:

1) Channel count
2) Amplification
3) Build quality (Cinema 40 / X4800H and up being built in Shirakawa with higher quality materials/finishes)
4) Software (Room Correction, potentially some codecs like Auro3D and DTS X Pro)

If you think about it, amortizing the development cost of the PCB (DAC, ADC, HDMI, etc.) across the vast majority of the product line makes a lot of sense (with the exception of the top-end where the price is 2x the next tier down), especially since the higher-end products like Cinema 30 / X6800H and Cinema 40 / X4800H are going to be lower volume than their less costly stablemates.

Using the same DAC is only good for Marantz and Denon - If I were buying the overpriced Cinema 40 which used to be $1,999 not long ago and available for $1,299 when new models came out, I'd want a much better DAC than the Cinema 70 as it's nearly 3 times more expensive.

There's got to be progression here to justify these prices and lower specs. The 7000 series has had 710 watts for 15 years now, the same number of channels, the same room correction software. If you think about it, the only thing that has really changed over the past few years is the price.

 

[ban25]

Using the same DAC is only good for Marantz and Denon - If I were buying the overpriced Cinema 40 which used to be $1,999 not long ago and available for $1,299 when new models came out, I'd want a much better DAC than the Cinema 70 as it's nearly 3 times more expensive.

There's got to be progression here to justify these prices and lower specs. The 7000 series has had 710 watts for 15 years now, the same number of channels, the same room correction software. If you think about it, the only thing that has really changed over the past few years is the price.

Definitely not defending D+M on this point. Ultimately, what you are really paying for between C50 and C40 (and X3800H and X4800H) is cost of labor and aesthetics / build materials. They give you a couple of superficial spec changes to justify the product segmentation, like analog inputs which may be worthwhile for some, but at the end of the day, it is basically a more expensive to produce C50/X3800H, with the costs passed on to the consumer.

 

[mcdn]

There's got to be progression here to justify these prices and lower specs.

Of course, but the digital bits cost the same regardless - in fact using the same digital processing throughout the range lifts quality and lowers cost. There's no advantage outside the crazy high end for a manufacturer to differentiate based on their HDMI and audio guts.

Amp channels, amp power and some IP licensing is really all that actually changes the BOM cost. The market doesn't want to hear that so manufacturers create artificial tiering. That's life.

 

[Thomas_A]

My wish would be that AVR models are differentiated by number of channels and power and that the basic ”software” would be the same in the base versions but possible to upgrade.

 

[peng]

Sound United now owns the patents for Audyssey.

Really, so now Audyssey may have to pay SU for lucensing their MultEQ X?

 

[peng]

and even then, they replaced the AKM DAC in the Denon X8500HA with the TI PCM5102.

Not true, the x8500ha now has the ES9010K2M. They didn't dare downgrade their top model that much. It is the Marantz SR8015 that ended up with the PCM5102A (iirc), and Gene mentioned that those newer 8015 did take a hit on sinad.., again iirc.

 

[GXAlan]

Really, so now Audyssey may have to pay SU for lucensing their MultEQ X?

No idea how the business works.

US8218789B2 - Phase equalization for multi-channel loudspeaker-room responses - Google Patents

A system and method for minimizing the complex phase interaction between non-coincident subwoofer and satellite speakers for improved magnitude response control in a cross-over region. An all-pass filter is cascaded with bass-management filters in at least one filter channel, a[ 1 d preferably...

patents.google.com

If you look at this patent for example, it looks like Sound United took ownership. I am not enough of a patent lawyer to know if they co-own or outright own the IP. All of the Audyssey patents I saw that would relate to room correction have an "assigned to Sound United" update in 2018.

It’s possible they co-own the IP. It’s possible that Sound United owned 49% of Audyssey, etc.

EDIT: One thing that is sort of interesting is that 2023 is 5 years after these patent assignments occurred. I wonder if there was a 5 year exclusivity period or something along those lines or 5 year long-term-agreement purchase, etc.

 

[ban25]

Not true, the x8500a now has the ES9010K2M. They didn't dare downgrade their top model that much. It is the Marantz SR8015 that ended up with the PCM5102A (iirc), and Gene mentioned that those newer 8015 did take a hit on sinad.., again iirc.

That's good to know. I knew there was one top-of-line AVR that got the downgrade, turns out it was the 8015!

 

[Ykar]

Just sharing : on the 70s I was wondering if it was possible to run "pre-out only" for the front spkrs while leaving internal amplifiers active for other speakers, and found the answer in that vid

Marantz Cinema 50 - Pre Out

Hello, It’s possible to use on a 7.1.4 configuration the pre-Out for the front Left/center/Right Chanels ? It’s seems that I can only use the left and right chanel or the Heights chanels when the 11.1 Chanels configuration is selected. The use of the pre-outs are related with the type of...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[peng]

Just sharing : on the 70s I was wondering if it was possible to run "pre-out only" for the front spkrs while leaving internal amplifiers active for other speakers, and found the answer in that vid

Marantz Cinema 50 - Pre Out

Hello, It’s possible to use on a 7.1.4 configuration the pre-Out for the front Left/center/Right Chanels ? It’s seems that I can only use the left and right chanel or the Heights chanels when the 11.1 Chanels configuration is selected. The use of the pre-outs are related with the type of...

audiosciencereview.com

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The 70's pre outs and speaker terminals can both be live. If you need the ability to selectively( by channel pairs and the center channel) disconnect the corresponding internal power amps, you have to step up to the 50, 40, or Denon's 3800, 4800. Edit: Obviously it was my mistake.

 

[Ykar]

The 70's pre outs and speaker terminals can both be live. If you need the ability to selectively( by channel pairs and the center channel) disconnect the corresponding internal power amps, you have to step up to the 50, 40, or Denon's 3800, 4800.

I just bought and installed the 70s and can confirm it has the same ability to disconnect internal power amps selectively, as stated in Marantz presentation above. Right now i have it disconnected for front speaker (pre-out only) while other internal amps remain active for surrounds (pre-out + speakers) . Or maybe I missed your point ?

 

[mcdn]

The 70's pre outs and speaker terminals can both be live. If you need the ability to selectively( by channel pairs and the center channel) disconnect the corresponding internal power amps, you have to step up to the 50, 40, or Denon's 3800, 4800.

This is incorrect. All channels can be set to pre-out only, and give a nice satisfying relay click when this is done. See the 70s manual here: https://manuals.marantz.com/CINEMA70S/NA/EN/DRDZSYvposptav.php

I mean, that’s literally what this thread is about!

 

[peng]

I just bought and installed the 70s and can confirm it has the same ability to disconnect internal power amps selectively, as stated in Marantz presentation above. Right now i have it disconnected for front speaker (pre-out only) while other internal amps remain active for surrounds (pre-out + speakers) . Or maybe I missed your point ?

My mistake, fwiw I did read the owner's manual and it did not say anything about this feature but I might have missed it. Just wondering why you asked the question then?

 

[peng]

This is incorrect. All channels can be set to pre-out only, and give a nice satisfying relay click when this is done. See the 70s manual here: https://manuals.marantz.com/CINEMA70S/NA/EN/DRDZSYvposptav.php

I mean, that’s literally what this thread is about!

I was wrong about that, the thread is about using it as a pre-pro, that does not mean it has the disconnecting individual channels feature (older models, such as SR7015, even 8015 don't have such feature); and he did ask the question "..on the 70s I was wondering if it was possible to ..." Regardless, as you said, I was incorrect, and have edited my post to avoid misleading others.

 

[Ykar]

My mistake, fwiw I did read the owner's manual and it did not say anything about this feature but I might have missed it. Just wondering why you asked the question then?

I asked the question, found the answer and bought it right away which allowed me to confirm. I think providing such flexibility in entry level AVR is just brilliant from Marantz.
I also did read the manual before buying, and that specific selective pre-out setting is buried into the March firmware update section. And even then, the description is not crystal clear.

https://manuals.marantz.com/U30_1_MZ_C7/NA/EN/PCIRSYhbrfweie.php

 

[peng]

I asked the question, found the answer and bought it right away which allowed me to confirm. I think providing such flexibility in entry level AVR is just brilliant from Marantz.
I also did read the manual before buying, and that specific selective pre-out setting is buried into the March firmware update section. And even then, the description is not crystal clear.

https://manuals.marantz.com/U30_1_MZ_C7/NA/EN/PCIRSYhbrfweie.php

Thank you very much.