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Epos ES 14 N - best passive Speaker in SpiNorama.org so far? (7.4/10 with equalisation without subwoofer)

computer-audiophile

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Where are you come from in Germany?
I am a survivor of an older generation of audiophile schools like that of Jean Hiraga and the Maison de l'Audiophile, just to give you an idea. My sensei was called Susumu Sakuma, but there have been many more of course. Today's influencers who are guided by commercial interests have nothing to say to me. But then, I live in an audiophile diaspora today, as they say. In this respect, I could only contribute poorly any more.
 
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Thomas_A

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Sure, you can have. One of the tests was with a cabinet on one side using a standard MDF panel and the other one with the same thickness panels but done with constrained layer damping (two layers, damping in the middle). The cabinet was a smaller 2-way, so no other internal bracing was used.

But this is the problem here at ASR: Whatever I say, somebody says something like "I don't feel like" - like you did above. On one hand, people are screaming for blind A/B test, but never did anything themselves to prove their own theory.

This is nothing against you.....but think about it and read some of the comments to understand why I'm turning around and walking away.

I have no problem discussing with people who have worked on the same things as we did here. It's only difficult to discuss with people who are biased in one direction and turn whatever argument does not fit into their world down with "I don't believe, show me the AB test".
FYI

 
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Freeway

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I am a survivor of an older generation of audiophile schools like that of Jean Hiraga and the Maison de l'Audiophile, just to give you an idea. My sensei was called Susumu Sakuma, but there have been many more of course. Today's influencers who are guided by commercial interests have nothing to say to me. But then, I live in an audiophile diaspora today, as they say. In this respect, I could only contribute poorly any more.
Sakuma san
After making many amplifiers, he noticed that the amplifier conforming to electronic theory does not always satisfy our emotional sense.
He decided to build his system by his emotion, not theory.
Very cool.
 

ahofer

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Whatever I say, somebody says something like "I don't feel like" - like you did above. On one hand, people are screaming for blind A/B test, but never did anything themselves to prove their own theory.
Well, I don't know if you mean me. You may not believe this, but I approach these conversations with the idea of attempting to disprove what is considered settled science around here: what is the extraordinary claim, and can it be true? Not because I disbelieve the sort of Toole-ish canon here, but because trying to disprove seems like what we ought to be doing. I try to channel my skepticism into just being really clear about what is being claimed that goes against what I know of the research. In this case I wanted to know if there is some kind of resonance below established audible thresholds that IS indeed audible (or creates IMD, or simply worth pursuing for engineering's sake, or whatever the claim being made here was).

But, as I said, when the claimer seems to be avoiding those kinds of specific questions, then I begin to feel like he might be just putting me on.

So you can claim there's some sort of diseased culture here, or you can examine your own behavior to see if you might not be stating your case as clearly as you could. I'm sure we can all do better.

Hope you stick around.
 
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Karl-Heinz Fink

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Well, I don't know if you mean me. You may not believe this, but I approach these conversations with the idea of attempting to disprove what is considered settled science around here: what is the extraordinary claim, and can it be true? Not because I disbelieve the sort of Toole-ish canon here, but because trying to disprove seems like what we ought to be doing. I try to channel my skepticism into just being really clear about what is being claimed that goes against what I know of the research. In this case I wanted to know if there is some kind of resonance below established audible thresholds that IS indeed audible (or creates IMD, or simply worth pursuing for engineering's sake, or whatever the claim being made here was).

But, as I said, when the claimer seems to be avoiding those kinds of specific questions, then I begin to feel like he might be just putting me on.

So you can claim there's some sort of diseased culture here, or you can examine your own behavior to see if you might not be stating your case as clearly as you might. I'm sure we can all do better.

Hope you stick around.
I don't have the time to sit on the computer all day, but I'll try to write a bit. :cool:
 

YSC

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I don't have the time to sit on the computer all day, but I'll try to write a bit. :cool:
just got home and saw you're back, what a coincident:cool:

it's always nice to have some really deep technical discussion, especially from good designers, from the previous "arguements" I do have a feel that we don't have much differ in our understanding, maybe language barrier more than that, can't wait to see your detail stuffs coming
 

Karl-Heinz Fink

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MAB

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Hifi is not about hearing the accurate sound alone. It’s a game of aesthetics, weight, brand value and complicating things. People love their equipments even when are turned off. It’s not an instrument just for producing the sound!
You actually described an audiophile, i.e. someone who loves the equipment, and allows that to interfere with perception of fidelity. Yes, these people love their equipment even though it doesn't accurately produce sound. And you accurately describe the psychoacoustic effect that causes people to have sighted impressions that prevent direct objective measurements with the ear. All this because even if we didn't have issues with sighted bias, our ears and brain are just not suited to make comparisons of sound between two objects. It's no wonder we overcompensate and get gear that matches some aesthetic instead of gear that meets a standard of fidelity to the signal. So, no, you didn't describe HiFi at all.
 

dogmamann

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You actually described an audiophile, i.e. someone who loves the equipment, and allows that to interfere with perception of fidelity. Yes, these people love their equipment even though it doesn't accurately produce sound. And you accurately describe the psychoacoustic effect that causes people to have sighted impressions that prevent direct objective measurements with the ear. All this because even if we didn't have issues with sighted bias, our ears and brain are just not suited to make comparisons of sound between two objects. It's no wonder we overcompensate and get gear that matches some aesthetic instead of gear that meets a standard of fidelity to the signal. So, no, you didn't describe HiFi at all.
Yes you are right. Audiophile was the right word, not Hifi. May be I am an audiophile than a hifi person. I like the looks of my Kef References than how they sound. !
 
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Count Arthur

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Never mind all this nonsesense about how they sound, I really like how they look. :)

1697663410417.png


I always thought the earlier models were rather hansome.

1697663536758.png


I think it's the drivers on a contrasting panel that I find appealing; rather like some ATC and Dynaudio models.

Anyway, back to the argument discussion. :)
 

Soniclife

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I always thought the earlier models were rather hansome.

1697663536758.png


I think it's the drivers on a contrasting panel that I find appealing; rather like some ATC and Dynaudio models.
They still look really modern, more interesting visually than the new version.
 

dogmamann

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Black magic speaker!
In 90s lot of companies attempted to have a different shapes for their boxes other than just being a rectangular boxes. Back then it was exepensive to curve a box cabin, and therefore some of them had inconventionsl shapes but all made out of flat pieces of mdf. But in the end most of them ended up plain ugly. This on the other hand somehow is well proportioned and looks like it goes nicely with a living room without screaming „hey look at me“. I like what I heard this with canor, but I wonder if it’s different without canor. Every demo had the same amp!

I am well aware that Herr Fink knows well to execute other shapes. Look at ALR Note Series. I really wanted to own one but finding one on the used market was very difficult.

With the earlier speaker designs Mr.Fink worked there was always quite bit of similarity in sound with different brands. At one point, I had a IQ 4180AT, ALR Nummer 4 Mk1 and Yamaha MSG 150 at home. They all sounded more similar than different. I have no idea if the Yamaha was designed by Mr. Fink, but sonically I noticed so many similarities between them.
 

Karl-Heinz Fink

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With the earlier speaker designs Mr.Fink worked there was always quite bit of similarity in sound with different brands. At one point, I had a IQ 4180AT, ALR Nummer 4 Mk1 and Yamaha MSG 150 at home. They all sounded more similar than different. I have no idea if the Yamaha was designed by Mr. Fink, but sonically I noticed so many similarities between them.
Yes, I did the Yamahas as well. Guess you are talking about NS-G 150 ....I almost forgot about them. Drivers are more or less identical to the ALR ones of that period.
The EPOS is running often with CANOR in Germany, because we use the same distributor. I also use Soulnote as an integrated amp or some of the bigger MARANTZ amps
Right now, I'm running an SPL Preamp on a Hypex power amp (the latest version). Works well
 

dogmamann

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Yes, I did the Yamahas as well. Guess you are talking about NS-G 150 ....I almost forgot about them. Drivers are more or less identical to the ALR ones of that period.
The EPOS is running often with CANOR in Germany, because we use the same distributor. I also use Soulnote as an integrated amp or some of the bigger MARANTZ amps
Right now, I'm running an SPL Preamp on a Hypex power amp (the latest version). Works well
I have taken apart most of those speakers and noticed that the drivers were all “almost” off the shelf vifas. Back then were those drivers custom built for your design by vifa ? Most had different model numbers than what was available as generic woofers and tweeters?

The price of es14n is little on the enthusiast territory and they are meant specific seasoned audience. For a beginner, that level of refinement is needed but low extension of those alr and Yamaha boxes are way better than many floorstanding boxes I have recently owned above 5000 euros. Is it viable for you to reuse those designs to create boxes with off the shelf drivers to have that full range experience for cheaper price ?

If the box itself was your magic back then, then I understand it’s not cheap as the box itself would be the most expensive part today too.
 

Karl-Heinz Fink

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I have taken apart most of those speakers and noticed that the drivers were all “almost” off the shelf vifas. Back then were those drivers custom built for your design by vifa ? Most had different model numbers than what was available as generic woofers and tweeters?

The price of es14n is little on the enthusiast territory and they are meant specific seasoned audience. For a beginner, that level of refinement is needed but low extension of those alr and Yamaha boxes are way better than many floorstanding boxes I have recently owned above 5000 euros. Is it viable for you to reuse those designs to create boxes with off the shelf drivers to have that full range experience for cheaper price ?

If the box itself was your magic back then, then I understand it’s not cheap as the box itself would be the most expensive part today too.
I started working for and with VIFA in the 80th - just after they stopped being part of SEAS. In those days, it was possible to work on drivers with them and make custom ones. Later, with the metal cones, we went a few steps further. This was before you could just go to China and make something completely new..
I did many years with Q-Acoustics (until around 2019) and that is exactly what you are asking for - but with completely own drivers. The latest budget range was the Wharfedale Diamond 12 range, but so far nobody wanted another one.
 

dogmamann

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I started working for and with VIFA in the 80th - just after they stopped being part of SEAS. In those days, it was possible to work on drivers with them and make custom ones. Later, with the metal cones, we went a few steps further. This was before you could just go to China and make something completely new..
I did many years with Q-Acoustics (until around 2019) and that is exactly what you are asking for - but with completely own drivers. The latest budget range was the Wharfedale Diamond 12 range, but so far nobody wanted another one.
What was in the note series ? It doesn’t appear to be metal. The 3rd iteration of ALR had metal drivers which were manufactured in Taiwan if m not wrong. I had Nummer 4, Nummer 4 v2 and Number 4. I liked all of them in different ways. The number 4 had everything concentrated on the tweeter axis which to me was a better sound as the other two had soundstage below the ear range. But what I never understood is your idea of gluing the drivers to the cabins. It kind of made any repair impossible without damaging the cabin. Thankfully I never saw this in any of the speakers after that!
 

Karl-Heinz Fink

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What was in the note series ? It doesn’t appear to be metal. The 3rd iteration of ALR had metal drivers which were manufactured in Taiwan if m not wrong. I had Nummer 4, Nummer 4 v2 and Number 4. I liked all of them in different ways. The number 4 had everything concentrated on the tweeter axis which to me was a better sound as the other two had soundstage below the ear range. But what I never understood is your idea of gluing the drivers to the cabins. It kind of made any repair impossible without damaging the cabin. Thankfully I never saw this in any of the speakers after that!
The Note series used metal cones. The drivers after VIFA came from Minebea (Japan) with production in China and partly Taiwan. I worked for them as a consultant and we made a lot of drive units for top companies in Europe. Gluing the drivers to the cabinet worked well .....the glue was a high-damping type and never dried out. The idea came from DYNAUDIO and in fact, we bought the glue from them. Removing the driver was not difficult. You just had to lay down the box with the drivers facing the floor (with two blocks) and wait one night. On the next morning, the drivers would be loose. Still works today :)
 
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