• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Epos ES 14 N - best passive Speaker in SpiNorama.org so far? (7.4/10 with equalisation without subwoofer)

dogmamann

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 16, 2022
Messages
791
Likes
501
I
What I'd lkike to hear is if that tweeter integrates with the mid drivers properly. Maybe some of that would come up in a dispersion plot but listening is always important and an on-axis response plot won't always show this up.
vertical dispersion is poor but horizontal is good. Surprisingly listening window is great. So doesn’t matter if individual things are not perfect.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,555
Likes
15,597
vertical dispersion is poor but horizontal is good. Surprisingly listening window is great. So doesn’t matter if individual things are not perfect.
Rather shows the limitations of just looking at the LW and the corresponding metric.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,555
Likes
15,597
So LW Doesn’t matter at all?
Did I write that? It is just not enough as otherwise someone could take any poor directivity loudspeaker and just equalise to any target which we know isn't really working under normal listening (room) conditions.
 

kemmler3D

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 25, 2022
Messages
2,786
Likes
5,188
Location
San Francisco
Now you are in danger! You touch KEF here in this forum; you get burned !
It's fair if you want to exclude manufacturer measurements, it's not rare for them to be unreasonably generous.

I do think KEF is considered fairly honest when it comes to measurements, but it's fair policy to ignore them anyway if you want to.
 
OP
totti1965

totti1965

Active Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2023
Messages
215
Likes
177
Location
Bonn / Germany
Now you are in danger! You touch KEF here in this forum; you get burned !
Ha ha ha, to be clear: not the KEF Speakers are mediocre - they are fine! It is just the trias of measurement quality (high- medium - low) and KEF does not give access to the unsmoothed results of the Klippel measurements! Ascend Acoustic does. It has to be a substraction in the Points that the KEF Speakers reach (according to Pierre: 1 to 1.5 Points!). I really want to see (e. g.) the KEF Blade One Meta tested by Amir or Erin - it would perform very good, but perhaps not overwhelmingly good!!!!
 

mj30250

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2021
Messages
397
Likes
762
vertical dispersion is poor but horizontal is good. Surprisingly listening window is great. So doesn’t matter if individual things are not perfect.
It would be helpful if more blind testing were to be done specifically around the impact of vertical dispersion while on-axis. Subjectively, I find the treble reproduction of the ELX ribbon towers to be the best I've ever heard. It was the primary factor in my replacing a pair of excellent Revel F226Bes with them. Seemingly, the messy vertical plots aren't indicative of any appreciable concerns provided your ears are aligned with the tweeter. Of course, the drawback is that the moment you stand up (or lie down), the treble attenuation is immediately noticeable. This wasn't the case with the Revels and their much larger vertical window.
 

Matias

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
4,950
Likes
10,626
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
Just wait until March Audio releases the high res spin of the Sointuva AWG. Below is a preview.


index.php


index.php
Now on Spinorama.org:
rating
Tonality: 7.3
Bass extension: 32Hz
Flatness: ±1.2dB

 

Matias

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
4,950
Likes
10,626
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
Last edited:

JAJDACT

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2023
Messages
82
Likes
126
Even though it was measured by a 3rd party (Wardwyn in the US using a Klippel NFS), the file itself was sent by March Audio.
@pierre is that the reason?

Edit: it should not be that way since Ascend also supplied NFS data and is listed as quality High, so probably a mistake.
Yeah that's what I was thinking too. That's very impressive either way. I actually thought it was a powered speaker at first after seeing how linear it is. Dispersion is much narrower than I prefer but I'd love to hear them if I ever got the chance.
 

pierre

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 1, 2017
Messages
958
Likes
3,012
Location
Switzerland
Yeah that's what I was thinking too. That's very impressive either way. I actually thought it was a powered speaker at first after seeing how linear it is. Dispersion is much narrower than I prefer but I'd love to hear them if I ever got the chance.
Yeah quality is high, I will correct it. Don’t worry :)
 
OP
totti1965

totti1965

Active Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2023
Messages
215
Likes
177
Location
Bonn / Germany
Now on Spinorama.org:
rating
Tonality: 7.3
Bass extension: 32Hz
Flatness: ±1.2dB

Yeah! Again a new passive speaker record holder: 7.65 with equalisation and incredibly 8.96 with woofer and equalisation. This is where larger speakers can’t get so much profit from perfect subwoofers and normally just Genelec is shining. USD 7.000,—: Seems that you can’t get the last 2 % in Quality as a cheap trick.
 

Matias

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
4,950
Likes
10,626
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
Yeah! Again a new passive speaker record holder: 7.65 with equalisation and incredibly 8.96 with woofer and equalisation. This is where larger speakers can’t get so much profit from perfect subwoofers and normally just Genelec is shining. USD 7.000,—: Seems that you can’t get the last 2 % in Quality as a cheap trick.
As a new owner of a pair of them, no subs are required: -6 dB at 32 Hz pretty much covers it all ime.
 
OP
totti1965

totti1965

Active Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2023
Messages
215
Likes
177
Location
Bonn / Germany
Yeah quality is high, I will correct it. Don’t worry :)
Hi Pièrre,
I have a question to the preference score for the new Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 V2, which pleased Erin so much:
If you see his YouTube video an stop it at 8.00 min, then you can see that Erin shows a preference Score of 6.8 (I think it is without equalizing) and with subwoofer 8.4
After you have proceed the data of Erin your ranking is just 6.4 without subwoofer.
I don’t understand this deviation.
Thank you so much for your work and thank you for adding 10 new speakers within two days or so! Spinorama is for Speakers what Crinacles Database is for headphones and IEMs.
 

LeoL

Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
9
Likes
26
@Karl-Heinz Fink I also enjoy the Wharfedale Diamond 12 speakers that you designed. I recognise and appreciate the characteristic smooth response and even tonality of your work (across the speakers that I have experienced that have been designed by you). Can you share what the key trade offs are when you have to design to a tight budget (such as the Wharfedale Diamonds) versus, say the ES14Ns?
 

Karl-Heinz Fink

Active Member
Technical Expert
Joined
May 20, 2016
Messages
102
Likes
416
@Karl-Heinz Fink I also enjoy the Wharfedale Diamond 12 speakers that you designed. I recognise and appreciate the characteristic smooth response and even tonality of your work (across the speakers that I have experienced that have been designed by you). Can you share what the key trade offs are when you have to design to a tight budget (such as the Wharfedale Diamonds) versus, say the ES14Ns?
Hi,
we have 4 areas.....the most important one is the cabinet. On a budget speaker, you cannot make too complicated things, so you will have more unwanted output from ports or vibrations form side panels and so on. And of course, the surface is not veneer or paint, but just foil. But by optimising your few options, you can still make a proper cabinet.
For the drivers, I myself would not go too simple, even on budget drivers. All of them will have an aluminium compensation ring inside the magnet to bring down the distortion. In speakers like the ES14, we have a lot more options like Hybrid magnet systems (Neo and Ferrite) or injection moulded cones. Same for tweeters...you can make a nice one from Polyester, but with some more advanced materials, you can get better results.
The crossover parts can be better on the better speaker of course.
The last area is precision and care in production. A budget speaker has to rush through production, and you need to allow a tolerance in order to reach the final price. Speakers like the EPOS will have the drivers carefully measured, the speakers are running in before being tested again, and screws will be tightened to a special torque and redone after running in.
These are just some details about the differences. The basic concept behind the speakers is always the same. The problem here in ASR is that everything will be squeezed into the Spinorama thing and the philosophy is that everything that can't be measured like it is done, must be voodoo or a rip-off. Nothing wrong with the way of measurements here......definitely will show how much proper engineering has been used. However, I do not always agree with the interpretation of the results and I think those measurements do not cover everything that we can hear or show how much care has been used in production.
But in a way, ASR helps to find good devices for a lower price....making HiFi more affordable. Nothing wrong with that.
 

LeoL

Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
9
Likes
26
Hi,
we have 4 areas.....the most important one is the cabinet. On a budget speaker, you cannot make too complicated things, so you will have more unwanted output from ports or vibrations form side panels and so on. And of course, the surface is not veneer or paint, but just foil. But by optimising your few options, you can still make a proper cabinet.
For the drivers, I myself would not go too simple, even on budget drivers. All of them will have an aluminium compensation ring inside the magnet to bring down the distortion. In speakers like the ES14, we have a lot more options like Hybrid magnet systems (Neo and Ferrite) or injection moulded cones. Same for tweeters...you can make a nice one from Polyester, but with some more advanced materials, you can get better results.
The crossover parts can be better on the better speaker of course.
The last area is precision and care in production. A budget speaker has to rush through production, and you need to allow a tolerance in order to reach the final price. Speakers like the EPOS will have the drivers carefully measured, the speakers are running in before being tested again, and screws will be tightened to a special torque and redone after running in.
These are just some details about the differences. The basic concept behind the speakers is always the same. The problem here in ASR is that everything will be squeezed into the Spinorama thing and the philosophy is that everything that can't be measured like it is done, must be voodoo or a rip-off. Nothing wrong with the way of measurements here......definitely will show how much proper engineering has been used. However, I do not always agree with the interpretation of the results and I think those measurements do not cover everything that we can hear or show how much care has been used in production.
But in a way, ASR helps to find good devices for a lower price....making HiFi more affordable. Nothing wrong with that.
Thanks very much for the insights. Appreciate it greatly! (recently heard the ES14Ns - was really taken by the scale of the sound and lack of obvious colourations)
 

dogmamann

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 16, 2022
Messages
791
Likes
501
Hi,
we have 4 areas.....the most important one is the cabinet. On a budget speaker, you cannot make too complicated things, so you will have more unwanted output from ports or vibrations form side panels and so on. And of course, the surface is not veneer or paint, but just foil. But by optimising your few options, you can still make a proper cabinet.
For the drivers, I myself would not go too simple, even on budget drivers. All of them will have an aluminium compensation ring inside the magnet to bring down the distortion. In speakers like the ES14, we have a lot more options like Hybrid magnet systems (Neo and Ferrite) or injection moulded cones. Same for tweeters...you can make a nice one from Polyester, but with some more advanced materials, you can get better results.
The crossover parts can be better on the better speaker of course.
The last area is precision and care in production. A budget speaker has to rush through production, and you need to allow a tolerance in order to reach the final price. Speakers like the EPOS will have the drivers carefully measured, the speakers are running in before being tested again, and screws will be tightened to a special torque and redone after running in.
These are just some details about the differences. The basic concept behind the speakers is always the same. The problem here in ASR is that everything will be squeezed into the Spinorama thing and the philosophy is that everything that can't be measured like it is done, must be voodoo or a rip-off. Nothing wrong with the way of measurements here......definitely will show how much proper engineering has been used. However, I do not always agree with the interpretation of the results and I think those measurements do not cover everything that we can hear or show how much care has been used in production.
But in a way, ASR helps to find good devices for a lower price....making HiFi more affordable. Nothing wrong with that.
does the screw tightness mess with resonances ? Are the drivers on the Epos isolated from the cabins with some foam kind of material ?
 

Karl-Heinz Fink

Active Member
Technical Expert
Joined
May 20, 2016
Messages
102
Likes
416
does the screw tightness mess with resonances ? Are the drivers on the Epos isolated from the cabins with some foam kind of material ?
Yes, it does. There is a gasket below the woofer basket and the tweeter has a gasket plus washers on the screw between the plate and the cabinet. We ask dealers to check the torque when they set-up the speakers with or for a customer
 
Top Bottom